What if a true saint quits believing – so what?

[cj]

WRONG! In fact you say "you got the holy spirit, then it is left to your own power to work it out". Why do you think we believe the Holy Spirit in us sits back and rests? Quit telling us what we think. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is the saved know God is working in their lives and cooperate with it. The unsaved resist the Holy Spirit. Life in Christ is a life in grace. But we can fall from grace. You say we cannot yet the Bible clearly says we can in Gal 5 which you keep twisting based on your pre-concieved notions and verse trumping.

Actually Thess, with all respect you also are "wrong."

The unsaved don't resist God.

Listen to what you're saying Thess, then go back and check in the scriptures how many times the "unsaved" were influenced by God to do His will.

How short you sell God and His power to defeat the futile "resistance" of men.

The bible declares that unsaved men can't "resist" Satan, but you want to say they can resist God. What an insult to God, your suggestion that He is weaker than Satan.

Really, don't you think about what you are writing before you write it?


Lets break down what you said,...

"The difference between the saved and the unsaved is the saved know God is working in their lives and cooperate with it."

You can't be serious. What scripture did you get this from, 'cause there isn't anything I've come across that even somewhat suggests what you are saying.

Scripture is clear, the difference between a saved and unsaved person is that one has life the other only death. Punto finale. No more,.... nothing,.... nada,... that's it folks.

One has life and one has death. This is what scripture tells us is the difference. What you said above is point blank.... NOT..... said in scripture, with regards to the difference between the saved and the unsaved.

The terrible thing that you are suggesting is that unsaved persons have the ability to CHOOSE to cooporate with God. This is a shameful thing to say as it negates what the Son accomlished through His life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

Dead mankind has no ability to make a choice, in fact, dead mankind has no choice to make. The choice is all God's.

Truth be told, what you said above is comparable heresy.

But lets continue,...

"The unsaved resist the Holy Spirit."

Hmmmm,... again, go check how often the unsaved were unable to resist the Holy Spirit, according to the scriptures. Or maybe you think that armies of unsaved men just turned on themselves and killed each other because they had nothing better to do.

Scripture declares in Romans 3:11,... "There is none who understands, there is none who seeks out God."

None,... NONE,..... get it? Zero, zilcho, nada, none, nunca seek God.

And yet you loudly state that the unsaved resist the Holy Spirit and don't know to cooporate with God.

Don't you see the level of, and please moderators I use this word according to its dictionary definition,.... okay,.... no personal insult intended,.... okay,.... Thess, don't you see the level of scriptural ignorance that is expressed in your saying that unsaved men resist the Holy Spirit and don't cooporate with God? Can't you see that scripture says that unsaved men... CAN'T do anything else than resist the Holy Spirit and not cooporate with God,... because they can do nothing else,... i.e it is simply the nature of the unsaved to resist the Holy Spirit and not cooporate with God.

You did it before you were saved, I did it before I was saved,..... and guess what,..... we both still resist the Holy Spirit and fail to cooporate with God, even to this day.

So what then, is our reality one where from moment tpo moment we have no clue as to whether we are save dor unsaved, because we still sometimes hold to the death nature that God has left us with for a time?

Are you saying that God's grace to us has holes in it, that we can fall through His grace and be lost even after being saved.

What a lie this is from the pit of hell,.... God's grace has holes through which saved men can fall into hell?

Away with Satan and his lies. The grace of God is complete and has no holes through which a saved man can fall.

Do you not understand upon what God's grace has become available to mankind?


How dare you and others sell the precious blood of Jesus so short?


This is the vilest lie of Satan, the most filthy of thing that can be spoken.


Hebrews 10:29, "By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Paul is speaking about and to believers who have been saved and yet returned to the vomit of belief that says men can save themselves out of works.

And hear the warning Paul gives to believers who hold to such lies,...

Hebrews 30-31, "For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay''; and again, "The Lord will judge His people.'' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

You might be saved Thess, but do not for a moment think that human death will bring peace to the believer who has held to and perpetuated the lie of Satan over the truth of God.

And this is what you do when with the false doctrine that says a saved person can lose their salvation.


And now to your concluding words,....

"Life in Christ is a life in grace. But we can fall from grace."

How contradictory is this that you say.

How you make God's grace short of perfect grace. For perfect grace would cover all things.

Thess, either grace is grace, or it is not grace. What it is is simply grace with requirements.

And do you know what God called this type of grace, the grace with requirements?

God called it,... the law.

Grace that a man can fall from is simply a type of law.

And this is what you and others are doing, turning God's perfect and complete grace back into the law.

Paul had a word to describe those who would think to do what you all are attemptiong to do. Paul called men who sought to do this,.... the concision.

Do you know what this term means Thess?

I'll tell you,... it was the worse insult you could make against a Jew, it meant people who mutilate themselves and each other.

But Paul thats not all Paul had to say about such people,... Paul also called these Jews dogs, and evil workers.

Do you know what it means for Paul to call a man a dog? I'll tell you, it means that the person is unclean before God.

And to be unclean before God is to be abiding in death.

Did you know that death is more defiling and abominable to God than sin? Go check the laws, a person who sinned could make an offering for sin immediately, but a person who touched a dead man was deemed unclean for seven days.

When Paul called the Judaizers dogs, he was declaring them people of death, people abiding in death.

And regarding the term evil-worker, Paul was calling them false preachers.


Paul called those who would trample underfoot the Son of God, consider the blood of Jesus a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace,..... dogs (people abiding in death), evil-workers (false preachers), and the concision (mutilators).

These are Paul's words regarding men who hold to false doctrines. And God will not be mocked.

You say we cannot yet the Bible clearly says we can in Gal 5 which you keep twisting based on your pre-concieved notions and verse trumping.

Galatians 5 says nothing that support your erroneous view, there is nothing that says that a man can lose his salvation.

Why would you lie and say that it does?

Show us the words that say a man can lose his salvation Thess, go on, show us the words that say this.


Fact is, you can't.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

Once we are healed of blindness, how can we ever walk in darkness again? Even if we wanted to walk in darkness (which is absolutely absurd once we have seen the light), our bodies would involuntarily open our eyes. Sorry, but as the bible tells us, God's call is irrevocable. Those who think they know better than the bible will have to give an accounting one day.

The bible was written simply to tell us what God wants for us once we are born again of the Spirit. It tells us how we will be tempted to follow the ways of the world and which ways are from the devil and which ways are from God. That's what those warnings mean. They remind us when we are tempted that the prize of eternal life is far greater than falling into temptation, period. The closer we adhere to God's will, the more of the fruits of the spirit we will manifest. BUt those who are born again and ignore the warnings will, as Paul explains, will only just escape the flames. But those who never received the Holy Spirit will always fall away because they had no root to begin with. They simply followed "teachings that are but rules taught by men."

 

[thessalonian]

cj,

Your blathering again. You have God responsible for evil. God uses evil to the good but he does not cause it. God is far stronger than satan but the difference is that God does not violate our free will. Those who are not in Christ are not truly free but in bondage to him and so they cannot resist him. We choose by the grace of God to become his slaves. You make him out to be a rapist. All I have time for regarding your nonsense at the moment. Perhaps I'll waste more time later.


And no I do not believe that on their own the dead in sin can choose to cooperate with God. But by his grace they can. His grace works externally to the sinner to move him toward him. If this were not the case then we could claim coming to Christ as our part of our salvation. But once in Christ God's grace gives us strength against sin. Yet if your theories are true we would never sin. Perhaps you think you don't. Of course john tells us what you would be if you said you did not.

Your theories reduce salvation to little more than a puppet show.

Stop twisting my words cj. It is rather boarish.

 

[cj]

cj,

Your blathering again.

What you call blathering is really your way of exposing you inability to understand and thus respond intelligently.


And below I will show you how silly your reasoning is Thess.....

You have God responsible for evil.

Yes I most certainly do. But not in the way you are attempting to suggest.... follow me closely now,...

God uses evil to the good but he does not cause it.

But He certainly can STOP it,... can't He? Or maybe you think Satan does what he wants without being answerable to God?

No Thess, God is not the source of evil, but God is most certainly "responsible" for how evil is allowed to persecute believers.

Scripture says without a doubt that God places the hedge around a man,.... and that God takes away the hedge according to His will.

Pretty much this tells us that God is absolutely responsible for the extent to which evil is inflicted on each of us.


By your own words Thess, you just contradicted yourself.

God is far stronger than satan but the difference is that God does not violate our free will.

No,.... He won't huh.

So tell me,.... what exactly do the words "If you do this you will surely die" mean? If God does not impose His will upon our will, why could we not just say "Sorry God, but I don't think so, because I want to eat this and I want to live. So forget you."


How silly it is when men think they have something of value in the aspect of their being called a will.


And even worse,.... if not God, then comes Satan, or so scripture says. Or have you not read that man's will is so weak that he cannot even resist Satan?

So you say that God won't violate our will, but that He allows Satan to violate it.

You are confused Thess. I doubt you even know what you mean when you use the word "violate."

Tell us Thess, what do you mean when you use the word "violate"?

I'm all ears.

Those who are not in Christ are not truly free but in bondage to him and so they cannot resist him.

Ahhhh,.... those not in Christ, meaning,.... the unsaved.

But didn't you just say that the unsaved CAN resist Him?

I'm sure you did,... in fact I know you did in your post above.

So, here we have you first admission of error; and if in error in this, what else could you be in error about?

Let's see if we can find out....

We choose by the grace of God to become his slaves.

"We... choose..... by the grace..... of God....", hmmm.

Tell me, what do you understand "by" to mean?

Could it be that you mean that it is God who empowers our ability to choose?

Because if you do then you would be correct in saying this,.... but, it would mean that you will look silly in what you say below.....

You make him out to be a rapist.

Now you look silly.

No Thess, rapist take, God gives.

The problem with your understanding is that you still believe you have something that God wants.

But the truth is, scripture is clear, there is nothing in man that God wants, not even man's will.

Fact is, every aspect of a fallen man is vile to God. Why? Because every aspect of fallen man is in death.

So no Thess, I don't make God out to be a rapist, a taker of something. God is a giver. Fact is, God opened Himself up (gave Himself) to men,.... willingly, and desires nothing from men in return. For men have nothing God desires.

All I have time for regarding your nonsense at the moment. Perhaps I'll waste more time later.

You're funny.

I expose your error, you admit it, and you call what I did nonsense.

The word foolish comes to mind.

And no I do not believe that on their own the dead in sin can choose to cooperate with God.

Good Thess, this is a beginning for you to come to see the truth.

But by his grace they can. His grace works externally to the sinner to move him toward him. If this were not the case then we could claim coming to Christ as our part of our salvation. But once in Christ God's grace gives us strength against sin.

Absolutely correct sir.

But listen to your own words.... "once IN Christ",.... and go search the scriptures to find out what is the reality of being in Christ.

I'll give you a hint, whatever is found in Christ can never be found out of Christ. Christ contains no death Thess. So if a person is even for a moment "in Christ" it means that this person contains no death, and thus can live forever.


Again I say,... your own words undermine your position.

Yet if your theories are true we would never sin.

The blood of Christ covers all sin. Did it not cover you before you were saved? How so. Why are you not dead? Doesn't scripture declare that the wages of sin is death?

How come you are not dead Thess? Have you never sinned? Will you not sin today? Do you expect to die if you do sin today?


Again, your own words condemn your position.

Perhaps you think you don't. Of course john tells us what you would be if you said you did not.

Oh I sin, all the time. And most of the time I don't even know that I'm sinning.

But praise the Lord, I'm eternally saved, and because of this, eventually one day, this reality that is mine, my eternal salvation, will be made manifest to all creation.

For a while it remains hidden for the most part,... but oh what a glorious day it will be on that day that all see who God has called me to be.


I don't believe because I see, I believe because I hope to see.

Your theories reduce salvation to little more than a puppet show.

Says the pharisee.

Do you not know that this is exactly what the pharisees said of Jesus?

"Jesus, you can't do this,.... Jesus, you can't do that."

"Jesus, you come from Nazareth, nothing good comes from Nazareth."

"Jesus, you can't heal a man on the Sabbath, you need to wait until the right day. You are to simple Jesus, you make a mockery of all our laws and ordinances. You make a mockery of all our traditions and forms..... Just who do you think you are Jesus?"


Aaahhh Thess, your own words, I keep telling you, your own words condemn you.

Just as scripture says they would.

Stop twisting my words cj. It is rather boarish.

I twist nothing Thess,.... I simple expose them for what they are.


Do you know how darkness is exposed Thess?

By light.


You don't want me to stop "twisting" your words, you want me to stop shining a light on them.


Sorry, no can do, I love the Lord to much, and I love you to much.


In love,
cj

 

[BradtheImpaler]

This is patently wrong. I've known Brad... well my entire life and I was with him through his entire 15+ years as a Christian. I know that he truly believed in the Bible and Christianity and was very devout and sincere in his belief. The reason you seem not to accept this is:
1. Such facts of human experience contradict your interpretation of scripture.
or
2. Your interpretation of scripture is in fact correct and it is real human experience that contradicts the bible.
or
3. You cannot fathom why one would be a Christian and experience what you have and then turn away from it.

In short either your understanding of the Bible is wrong, the bible itself is wrong of you simply have not undergone the same experience that he has and thus have no right to say that he was never really a Christian.

Masterfully put, mighty Amon :P

I would add another reason...

4) They don't want to believe it's possible because they don't want to believe it could happen to them.

 

[AVBunyan]

Correcting a misplaced post

AV, All translations have problem areas, some more than others. But, Free has nailed your hide to the barn door on this passage.
You owe him an apology!!! farley

A while back I accidentally posted the post below on a different thread by accident. To to tie some loose ends here we go:

"Farley says Free nailed me to the wall and I owe Free an apology. I owe an apology because I disagreed with his interpretation – is this the reason? Free I do apologize for coming on a little strong by making versions an issue. But Free and I disagree on the passage and I owe an apology for that!?!? I’ve been here for 3 years and have yet to ask an apology from someone who disagreed with me!

Farley – you said to my face that I was lost – did I ask you for an apology? Get real here! Don’t take up Free’s offence if there is one here.

1. The point of my post was after a person is saved then his unbelief in any area does not effect his standing before God. I took the passage as a general belief in that even if the saint quite believing the gospel (if that could be done) then Christ cannot deny himself. If I read Free right he is saying it has nothing to do with salvation. I’m saying it could. No big deal. Free might be right.

2. I made an issue of versions for versions are an issue – “believe†and “faithless†are two different words. Not sure yet all of the difference but I will study out for my own interest. If God wanted faithless there He would have put it there. Actually whatever version Free used is not as corrupt as some – for in the NIV vs. 12 goes to Jesus “disowning†the saint!!!! So now Jesus can disown? There is a big difference between denying and disowning.

3. Free bolded vs. 12 so hence I commented on the denial referencing a reign – not salvation.

Again I apologize to Free for coming a bit hard on versions for that bothered me right after I posted it and should have reworded it. But, I don’t feel I should apologize for a disagreement over interpretations if that is the issue here? I don’t expect Free to apologize to me for disagreeing with me. I’m not afraid to apologize – have done so recently. But let it be a legitimate offence and I will.

Free – if I did you wrong then please let me know."

God bless

 

[Thoth-Amon]

4) They don't want to believe it's possible because they don't want to believe it could happen to them.[/quote]

Yes very perceptive. It can certainly make one insecure in one's own beliefs to see others who were just as devout and committed lose their own faith, especially if you are already having doubts.

 

[Georges]

4) They don't want to believe it's possible because they don't want to believe it could happen to them.

Yes very perceptive. It can certainly make one insecure in one's own beliefs to see others who were just as devout and committed lose their own faith, especially if you are already having doubts.[/quote]


Thought I recognized the name from Conan while scrolling.....clicked on the post and saw your sign off.....I enjoyed Howard's stories way back when. :D

 

[Thoth-Amon]

4) They don't want to believe it's possible because they don't want to believe it could happen to them.

Yes very perceptive. It can certainly make one insecure in one's own beliefs to see others who were just as devout and committed lose their own faith, especially if you are already having doubts.

Thought I recognized the name from Conan while scrolling.....clicked on the post and saw your sign off.....I enjoyed Howard's stories way back when. :D[/quote]

Yeah Howard is the greatest! Glad you like him.

 

[Vic C.]

...

Stop twisting my words cj. It is rather boarish.

I twist nothing Thess,.... I simple expose them for what they are.

Do you know how darkness is exposed Thess?

By light.

You don't want me to stop "twisting" your words, you want me to stop shining a light on them.

Sorry, no can do, I love the Lord to much, and I love you to much.


In love,
cj

Bah! Can the negative rhetoric, both of you. It's not very becoming and is edifying no one.

Also, keep the the posts down to a 'respectable' length, as per the rule in our TOS.

 

[cj]

This is a refreshing, CJ - I usually just expect the "you never really were a Christian in the first place" response when it comes to this subject. Have you been influenced by Norman Grubb's teachings?

No, until you spoke his name I had never heard of Norman Grubb. But I Googled him and went to his website and found out what a wonderful man he was.

I also found a word from God, one that I desperately needed to hear at this point in my life.

Funny, I found it at the very beginning of the very first paper that is highlighted on the homepage of the website, almost as if it has been sitting there waiting for me to come get it.

"And Jehovah said to Moses, Why do you cry out to Me? Tell the children of Israel to move forward. And you,... lift up your staff,... and stretch out your hand... over the sea, and divide it;... and the children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground."



Brad, people speak out of abject ignorance 99.9% of the time.

Think of it, we don't know all truth and yet we think that we are able to speak truth. And what's sad is that the bible tells us this, but do we listen and take heed of it? No, of course not.

And why,... because we are still earthen vessels; plain old dust. Therefore we will do what dust does naturally, dirty whatever we come in contact with, including the riches of God that we have within.

Yet, one day I heard a story about my having a hope, and I found the power to believe this story rising up in me, and in such a compelling way that I could not resist it. So I believed in it.

This was some years ago, and today, have I come to possess more than this hope I believed in? No; for "... faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

And faith is that which God in His great wisdom has declared the believer must live by as he or she lives out the time God has given us on this earth.

God, by declaring that it is faith a believer must live by, has declared that there is only one thing I can do for Him on this earth, express my hope in Him, and, by doing so declare to men what cannot be seen.


When Paul said the words, "When I am weak, He is strong" what Paul was saying is in my weakness you see my hope made manifest.


This is what I know,.... I spoke something to you not to condemn but to encourage, and you spoke something to me that lead to the Living Water that I dearly need. Thus in both of our weakened states, the hope that lies within us was able to work its way to the surface and be manifested.


Today I'm just trying to figure out how the link between my hope and my living works, as it seems that they are always separate things.

Paul surely understood this, as can be seen in his words at the end of Romans 7.

But then we come to Romans 8,...... wonderful Romans 8.

And for a moment we can know how great and perfect and wonderful God is.


And our hope is that one day it won't be for just a moment, but forever.


In love,
cj