What if a true saint quits believing – so what?

[gingercat]

Brad, I don't believe you were Christian, because if you were true Christian and did your best to follow His teachings you will start tasting what God is. And you will not go back where you were. You cannot fool anyone but yourself. God is Awesome that no one can describe. I hope you honestly start believing God instead of just playing in the Christian forum and making fun of Christianity.

What criteria would I have had to have met to prove to you that I was as much a christian as you are now?

I believe once you taste God you don't want to lose it. This is something that comes with faith. The joy He is giving me everyday. I am not talking about worldly happiness. The joy no one can take away from me no matter what kind of predicament I am in. If you are just playing I will not continue this. We should not entertain ourselves using God. I will no be used by you for your entertainment.

 

[Free]

Funny thing is, no one has refuted the Scripture I posted:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons (ESV)

So far it is all conjecture.

 

[cj]

Funny thing is, no one has refuted the Scripture I posted:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons (ESV)

So far it is all conjecture.

1 Timothy deals with specific things, one of the first of which we need to understand is that "later times" is not the same as "last days".

Additionally, Paul is speaking to Timothy about the matter of proper ministry, which is for the development of the saved believer.

Be clear about this Free, a man is not eternally saved because he has matured in God (grown with the growth of God), a man is saved because he believed in God.

Therefore, with this in mind, that Paul was speaking to Timothy about the ministry of God for the growth of God in a believer, we can better understand what is being said in the verse you present,...


On believing, the spirit of a man is instantly renewed, but the life that is in the renewed spirit must be allowed to flow into the soul of a man and renew this aspect of a person's being.

In doing this, flowing from the renewed spirit to the unrenewed soul, the life must pass through the conscience, which is like a window between the spirit and soul of a man.

And this is the point at which men can become shipwrecked regarding the faith. For as we become separated from the ministry of God we run the risk of having our conscience seared (hardened) and thus making it impossible for life to flow through it to the soul.


Here are some notes,.... "This book strongly stresses the conscience. In the church life the love that is contrary to envy and discord is out of a good conscience (1:5). Those who thrust away a good conscience become shipwrecked regarding the faith (1:19). The serving ones in the church must hold the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience (3:9). To keep a good and pure conscience is to keep the conscience sensitive in its function. This will safeguard us from the demonic and hypocritical teachings of deceiving liars."


Fact is Free, everyday we all do something that resists the Spirit, and thus in a way could sear the conscience and make it hard for life to flow out of our renewed spirit. But this doesn't mean we lose our salvation, it just means we lose God in our expressed outward living. But He remains where he has placed Himself upon our being born-again.

Our decisions cannot remove God from where He has placed Himself. But they can hinder the expression of God in our daily living.


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

1 Timothy deals with specific things, one of the first of which we need to understand is that "later times" is not the same as "last days".

Completely irrelevant. If Paul says that "some will fall away from the faith," then he means that "some will fall away from the faith" regardless of when this happens. This Scripture is abundantly clear - some will fall away from the faith. But this only makes sense if they actually belonged to the faith in the first place.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Brad, I don't believe you were Christian, because if you were true Christian and did your best to follow His teachings you will start tasting what God is. And you will not go back where you were. You cannot fool anyone but yourself. God is Awesome that no one can describe. I hope you honestly start believing God instead of just playing in the Christian forum and making fun of Christianity.

This is patently wrong. I've known Brad... well my entire life and I was with him through his entire 15+ years as a Christian. I know that he truly believed in the Bible and Christianity and was very devout and sincere in his belief. The reason you seem not to accept this is:
1. Such facts of human experience contradict your interpretation of scripture.
or
2. Your interpretation of scripture is in fact correct and it is real human experience that contradicts the bible.
or
3. You cannot fathom why one would be a Christian and experience what you have and then turn away from it.

In short either your understanding of the Bible is wrong, the bible itself is wrong of you simply have not undergone the same experience that he has and thus have no right to say that he was never really a Christian.

 

[Free]

And I have the same story Thoth-Amon (I won't ask ;) ). Someone who I was very close to several years ago, who I know without a doubt was a Christian, no longer lives like one. Not only is this consistent with Scripture, it is consistent with the reality of the numerous people who have fallen away from the faith.

Welcome to the forums, if you decide to stay.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

And I have the same story Thoth-Amon (I won't ask ;) ). Someone who I was very close to several years ago, who I know without a doubt was a Christian, no longer lives like one. Not only is this consistent with Scripture, it is consistent with the reality of the numerous people who have fallen away from the faith.

Welcome to the forums, if you decide to stay.

Thank you. Thoth-Amon is the name of the evil wizard in the Conan the Barbarian stories by Robert E. Howard. His misanthropic adventures were further chronicled by L. Sprague DeCamp and Linn Carter. The qoute is also from a Howard story.

 

[cj]

1 Timothy deals with specific things, one of the first of which we need to understand is that "later times" is not the same as "last days".

Completely irrelevant.

Edited by Mod

What you are saying is that context is irrelevant.

No Free, context is absolutely relevant, but in your case I can understand why you would not want it to be as it does not support your erroneous stand.

If Paul says that "some will fall away from the faith," then he means that "some will fall away from the faith" regardless of when this happens.

Never said anything to the contrary, but understanding that he is speaking about what was about to happen (and even was happening as Paul lived) and relating this to the rest of his speaking to Timothy, which centered on proper ministry) and his speaking aboout proper ministry in his other epistles we can begin to gain a better grasp of the point Paul was making to Timothy.

What you are trying to do is read something into Paul's speaking which is not there.

Tell me,... who are the "some"?

Tell me,... what is the significance of "fall away", does it mean unrecoverable?

Tell me,... what does Paul mean by "the faith", is this subject faith or objective faith.


Forgive me Free, but superficial claims to understanding what scripture says needs to been throw out with the rest of the junk.

This Scripture is abundantly clear - some will fall away from the faith. But this only makes sense if they actually belonged to the faith in the first place.

"Belong to... the faith..."?

Free, a believer doesn't "belong" to some ethereal thing called "the faith", a believer belongs to God.

And God loses nothing that belongs to Him.



A side bar note,.....

In your speaking, the erroneous doctrine of salvation through works is clearly seen Free.

Either God saves a person upon this person believing in Him and what He has done, or God is a liar.

And calling Him a liar is what thoughts like your's ends up doing.

You say a believer can "fall away" from God, yet you have no faith to say that God is able to recover the believer who falls away.

The funny thing is, you believe this lie while at the same time believing that God can save a spiritually dead person, out of this person's death.

Just what do you think "falling away" means?

I'll tell you,... it means falling away from life (the reality of remaining in "the faith") into death.

So, according to what you are saying is that God is only capable of saving us out of death once.

And this, even though He places Himself in us, something that He was not before we were saved. In other words, when we are saved and God has placed Himself in us, He is not able to save us, but before we are saved and He is not in us, He is able to save us.

What absolute foolish is this that blinds you to the truth of who God is and what He does.



In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

1 Timothy deals with specific things, one of the first of which we need to understand is that "later times" is not the same as "last days".

Completely irrelevant. If Paul says that "some will fall away from the faith," then he means that "some will fall away from the faith" regardless of when this happens.

Well free - would you be so kind as to give us a discourse on what happens doctrinally when one "falls away" -

Does he get kicked out of Chris't body - does he become unsealed - does he become unadopted, does he become unjustified, unglorified, unredeemed? Does his new spirit die and become joined to the flesh again? Does he get kicked out of the heavenly places? Just what actually happens here? does Ephesians 1 get reversed?

Then when the lost saint gets right again do all the things above get re-applied? Just curious.

God bless 8-)

 

[Vic C.]

People, if you can't respond without hurling insults at each other, my advice would be to refrain from posting... and pray for a change of heart. :roll:

Not meant for you AV.

 

[AVBunyan]

People, if you can't respond without hurling insults at each other, my advice would be to refrain from posting... and pray for a change of heart. :roll:

Not meant for you AV.

Thanks Vic - Actually Vic - I forgot to ask the folks - "What happened to the idea presented in the initial post?"

All I was trying to show was since one was not justified by their believeing then their "quite believing" cannot cause a loss of justification and I quoted II Timothy.

Looks like it got sidetracked again :o

God bless

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Vic - Actually Vic - I forgot to ask the folks - "What happened to the idea presented in the initial post?"

All I was trying to show was since one was not justified by their believeing then their "quite believing" cannot cause a loss of justification and I quoted II Timothy.

Looks like it got sidetracked again :o

God bless

It's what happens when posts become self-serving. :-? So, lets go back to the OP...

Many folks who believe they can lose their salvation or fall away have said that since one gets saved by believing then they can quite believing down the road and lose it. Well, let’s see what saith the Lord:

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here a believer quits believing and they are still saved. Why? Saints are in Christ and Christ cannot deny himself. So much for this example of unbelief creates a falling away.

Aren’t the scriptures great?

I've said it a million times - until you learn doctrinally what took place at Calvary then you will think you can lose it.

God bless

 

[Free]

Looks like I missed some action.

What you are saying is that context is irrelevant.

No Free, context is absolutely relevant, but in your case I can understand why you would not want it to be as it does not support your erroneous stand.

Please "listen" to what I am "saying". The when in this verse is irrelevant to the point being made, namely, that people will "fall away from the faith". It doesn't matter when this occurred or amy occur; what is important us that it does occur.

Never said anything to the contrary, but understanding that he is speaking about what was about to happen (and even was happening as Paul lived) and relating this to the rest of his speaking to Timothy, which centered on proper ministry) and his speaking aboout proper ministry in his other epistles we can begin to gain a better grasp of the point Paul was making to Timothy.

What you are trying to do is read something into Paul's speaking which is not there.

No, I am simply saying what Paul is saying. You, on the other hand, seem to think that some fell away from the faith previously but for some unknown reason it doesn't and can't happen anymore. But that is rather absurd.

Tell me,... who are the "some"?

Irrelevant.

Tell me,... what is the significance of "fall away", does it mean unrecoverable?

"Fall away" means "fall away". If any object falls is a part of another object but falls away from it, then it simply is no longer a part of that object. If in your definition of "unrecoverable" you are agreeing with my definition of "fall away," that believers become unbelievers, then you have one of two options, both of which make OSAS null and void: 1. Once believers reject the gospel they are forever unsaved, or 2. The unsaved believer can become saved once again.

Here is the definition of "fall away" as provided by Crosswalk.com:

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
a. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
a. to go away, to depart from anyone
b. to desert, withdraw from one
c. to fall away, become faithless
d. to shun, flee from
e. to cease to vex one
f. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
g. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Looks like it means what it means.

Tell me,... what does Paul mean by "the faith", is this subject faith or objective faith.

The gospel of salvation and all the beliefs surround it - the faith, the Christian faith.

And calling Him a liar is what thoughts like your's ends up doing.

You say a believer can "fall away" from God, yet you have no faith to say that God is able to recover the believer who falls away.

:o Hello!? I have clearly and simply presented a verse that states people can lose their salvation, "fall away from the faith". Once a believer falls away, they are no longer a believer. If you believe this, then OSAS is false. Of course God can bring someone back to him, I have made no comment whatsoever regarding that.

Well free - would you be so kind as to give us a discourse on what happens doctrinally when one "falls away" -

Does he get kicked out of Chris't body - does he become unsealed - does he become unadopted, does he become unjustified, unglorified, unredeemed? Does his new spirit die and become joined to the flesh again? Does he get kicked out of the heavenly places? Just what actually happens here? does Ephesians 1 get reversed?

Then when the lost saint gets right again do all the things above get re-applied? Just curious.

I hope you realize the absurdity of your line of questioning, AV. You must also "give us a discourse on what happens doctrinally when one 'falls away'". You and cj seem to think that a believer can "fall away" but only fall part of the way, or fall this way but not that way. Both of you are making this far more complicated then it need be in order to support the false doctrine of OSAS. A simple and plain reading of text shows that OSAS is false.

What do you think that "fall away" means? I have given my definition above which agrees with the meaning of the word aphistemi.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here a believer quits believing and they are still saved. Why? Saints are in Christ and Christ cannot deny himself. So much for this example of unbelief creates a falling away.

WOW! I hadn't really read this before. WOW! The absurdity of that statement leaves me speechless. My goodness man, think about what you wrote.

 

[cj]

Please "listen" to what I am "saying". The when in this verse is irrelevant to the point being made, namely, that people will "fall away from the faith". It doesn't matter when this occurred or amy occur; what is important us that it does occur.

Free, understand me,.... I am listening, very closely,..... but,..... you cannot take someone else's words and apply your own context to them.

Because... YOU think.... its okay to do so does not make it proper.

Paul was referring to a specific thing, therefore.... STICK TO THE SPECIFIC THING PAUL WAS REFERRING TO.

If you are so sure that what you are saying is represented in scripture,... then go find the specific scripture in which your doctrine is represented.

Don't make the sad mistake of taking scripture out of context. Which is what you're doing here.

That's what I'm saying, and,.... I can show you scripture that supports my speaking.

No, I am simply saying what Paul is saying. You, on the other hand, seem to think that some fell away from the faith previously but for some unknown reason it doesn't and can't happen anymore. But that is rather absurd.

Not at all, don't try to put things in my mouth.

First off,... you are NOT saying what Paul is saying, you ARE adding to scripture. And you even admit to doing so.

Secondly,... I don't "seem to think that some fell away for some unknown reason", the scripture is clear, some fell away because of a hardened conscience. Go read my earlier post, I am very clear about just what Paul tells us as being the reason for the falling away of some.

Free, really, how could you even think to profer such an silly and dishonest accusation against me? I am very aware of what Paul says in his epistles to Timothy.

The only absurd thing here is you speaking.

Irrelevant.

And you claim to follow Jesus?

Yet you call IRRELEVANT that which He has declared as being of God.

Wow.

"Fall away" means "fall away". If any object falls is a part of another object but falls away from it, then it simply is no longer a part of that object. If in your definition of "unrecoverable" you are agreeing with my definition of "fall away," that believers become unbelievers, then you have one of two options, both of which make OSAS null and void: 1. Once believers reject the gospel they are forever unsaved, or 2. The unsaved believer can become saved once again.

Again, not at all.

To fall away is to become entangled in the ways of the old man, and not to lose the divine seed of life that has been installed in our renewed spirit.

Tell me, if you fall away from your family are you no longer a member of your family?

Of course not, yet you seem unable to apply this grace to a brother or sister who has stumbled.

How sad that a person who depends on grace to keep him or her is unable/unwilling to extend this to another.

Here is the definition of "fall away" as provided by Crosswalk.com:

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
a. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
a. to go away, to depart from anyone
b. to desert, withdraw from one
c. to fall away, become faithless
d. to shun, flee from
e. to cease to vex one
f. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
g. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Looks like it means what it means.

Funny, I didn't see anything that said "to lose one's salvation".

Tell me,... what does Paul mean by "the faith", is this subject faith or objective faith.

The gospel of salvation and all the beliefs surround it - the faith, the Christian faith.

Wonderful,.... but I wonder why you were not able to simply answer... "objective",.... or "subjective"?

Perhaps its because you don't know what either means?

I'll help you,.... what you describe above is what is called OBJECTIVE FAITH.

Do you know why?

And do you know what subjective faith is?

And, which is needed by a man first, objective faith or subjective faith?

Free, if you don't understand this matter you will have a hard time understanding Paul's epistle to Timothy.

Hello!? I have clearly and simply presented a verse that states people can lose their salvation, "fall away from the faith". Once a believer falls away, they are no longer a believer. If you believe this, then OSAS is false. Of course God can bring someone back to him, I have made no comment whatsoever regarding that.

See, you are speaking in confusion; believers don't believe because they have the ability to believe, believers believe because God has placed Himself in believers in order to become our belief.

It seems that you are not even clear about how God saves people Free.

I hope you realize the absurdity of your line of questioning, AV. You must also "give us a discourse on what happens doctrinally when one 'falls away'". You and cj seem to think that a believer can "fall away" but only fall part of the way, or fall this way but not that way.

I can't speak for AV, but I can speak for myself,....

Free,..... the bible says,.... I'll say it again,.... the bible says,.... we are a NEW CREATION.... but I wonder if you believe this.

Scripture doesn't say we are becoming a new creation, its says we ARE a new creation.

But what your folly doctrine wants to teach is that one minute we can be a new creation and then the next minute we can be the old creation again, we can.... "fall away" from being the new creation God has made us.

How silly, and how insulting to God.

This tells me that you also have no clue as to what the reality is of being a new creation in Christ.

Both of you are making this far more complicated then it need be in order to support the false doctrine of OSAS.

Away with your accusation of false doctrine. What would you, one who has shown himself unable to properly divide scripture, know?

You come here and pose in vain knowledge, expecting the saints to take you seriously, and yet you are so easily rebuffed in the exposing of your weak understanding.

Do you really think that your babbling accusations of "false doctrine" holds water? You who can't even keep to context.

A simple and plain reading of text shows that OSAS is false.

A simple and plain reading.

You're funny.

What's simple and plain about being in Spirit?

Or maybe you think Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is,... simple and plain.


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

Free, understand me,.... I am listening, very closely,..... but,..... you cannot take someone else's words and apply your own context to them.

Because... YOU think.... its okay to do so does not make it proper.

Paul was referring to a specific thing, therefore.... STICK TO THE SPECIFIC THING PAUL WAS REFERRING TO.

Firstly, I am sticking to what Paul is saying. Secondly, you are tell me to "STICK TO THE SPECIFIC THING PAUL WAS REFERRING TO" but you have yet to offer any sort of explanation as to what you think Paul was referring to. Please, enlighten me.

If you are so sure that what you are saying is represented in scripture,... then go find the specific scripture in which your doctrine is represented.

:-? How about for the time being we stick with this verse which happens to represent what I am saying.

Don't make the sad mistake of taking scripture out of context. Which is what you're doing here.

Please, show me how I am taking it out of context.

That's what I'm saying, and,.... I can show you scripture that supports my speaking.

But you have yet to clearly state anything regarding the passage in question. You say you have scripture to support your speaking but what you are even speaking is, for the most part, unknown to me. For now, let's stick with this passage.

Not at all, don't try to put things in my mouth.

Oh my goodness...read what you wrote following this statement:

"Secondly,... I don't "seem to think that some fell away for some unknown reason", the scripture is clear, some fell away because of a hardened conscience. Go read my earlier post, I am very clear about just what Paul tells us as being the reason for the falling away of some."

This is the whole point of this discussion cj!!! If some have fallen away, and it doesn't matter when or who or how, as you have just stated and what I have been arguing for this whole time, then OSAS is a false doctrine.

I didn't put words in your mouth at all, you've just admitted that people have in the past fallen away from the faith. That's it, game over.

Free, really, how could you even think to profer such an silly and dishonest accusation against me? I am very aware of what Paul says in his epistles to Timothy.

You can't seem to see the forest for the trees. You accuse me of false accusations for things that are irrelevant to the main issue being discussed. When, if you actually read what I wrote, there is no false accusation against you and my whole point was that you had admitted that people fell away while continuing to adhere to a OSAS doctrine, which is totally contradictory.

Irrelevant.

And you claim to follow Jesus?

Yet you call IRRELEVANT that which He has declared as being of God.

Wow.

What in the world does your irrelevant statement have to do with claiming to follow Jesus?

As I have to point out once again for the umpteenth time, "if a true saint quits believing" (the main question of this thread), they have "fallen away from the faith," which you seem to agree with. That's it, case closed and OSAS has proven false regardless of who, when, or how.

I can't speak for AV, but I can speak for myself,....

Free,..... the bible says,.... I'll say it again,.... the bible says,.... we are a NEW CREATION.... but I wonder if you believe this.

Scripture doesn't say we are becoming a new creation, its says we ARE a new creation.

Well, this is for the learned to understand now isn't it? From a prof of mine: The Greek in this passage is in the present tense, which means that it is in fact an on going process. That is, we are becoming new creations.

Do you believe that? You seem so sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong, but the Greek text proves you wrong. But, I will concede that it is a failure of the English language, not necessarily your interpretation. My point is that you should not be so sure about everything you read in the an English translation of Scripture.

But what your folly doctrine wants to teach is that one minute we can be a new creation and then the next minute we can be the old creation again, we can.... "fall away" from being the new creation God has made us.

How silly, and how insulting to God.

Well, since you agree that some have fallen away from the faith, how contributing something useful, such as what you interpret "fall away" to mean, especially in light of the Greek meaning which I gave earlier.

You come here and pose in vain knowledge, expecting the saints to take you seriously, and yet you are so easily rebuffed in the exposing of your weak understanding.

You are a relatively young Christian, yes? How is it that you have come to seemingly know all about biblical translation and the meaning of every word and text without any serious learning on such subjects, and in such a short amount of time? As you grow you will learn that not all is as it appears, that the Bible is much more difficult than initially thought, that the more you learn the less you know.

You say my knowledge is vain, and I am willing to accept that it is since I do not know everything. But, so far you have given nothing and have been shown to be wrong on at least one occassion thus far. So far you have been all talk with no substance. Give me something to work with and prove me wrong, based on the passage in question.

 

[AVBunyan]

You must also "give us a discourse on what happens doctrinally when one 'falls away'".

What do you think that "fall away" means? I have given my definition above which agrees with the meaning of the word aphistemi.

WOW! I hadn't really read this before. WOW! The absurdity of that statement leaves me speechless. My goodness man, think about what you wrote.

Free - you have yet to show me scripturally and doctrinally what it means to fall away - You know why you can't? Because you and many others cannot give a doctrinal statement or stements on what actually happened at Calvary.

The issue is not OSAS but justification - and you have yet to show from scripture how a man is justified before God and what happened as a result of the work at Calvary.

Come on Free - You can find my statements on what took place at the point of salvation - where are yours? Can you give one based upon scripture? Here is your chance. Mine is on this forum

God bless 8-)

 

[Free]

Free - you have yet to show me scripturally and doctrinally what it means to fall away - You know why you can't? Because you and many others cannot give a doctrinal statement or stements on what actually happened at Calvary.

Why am I not surprised that you evaded my question to you? I asked: "You must also "give us a discourse on what happens doctrinally when one 'falls away'".

What do you think that "fall away" means?"

Sounds an aweful lot like the pot calling the kettle black. You seem so sure it isn't saying what I say it is saying but you cannot give an answer either. :-?

Here is the definition of "fall away" as provided by Crosswalk.com:

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
a. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
a. to go away, to depart from anyone
b. to desert, withdraw from one
c. to fall away, become faithless
d. to shun, flee from
e. to cease to vex one
f. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
g. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

That is the loss of salvation.

Here a believer quits believing and they are still saved.

At least answer me this: Is belief in Jesus as God and belief in his death and resurrection for our sins necessary for salvation?

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

How is it that the very act believing in Christ's deity and resurrection justifies a person, saving them, yet, according to you, they can quit believing and still be saved? One cannot be justified and be saved apart from belief, so how is it that one can remain saved after renouncing of that belief?

 

[cj]

Free, understand me,.... I am listening, very closely,..... but,..... you cannot take someone else's words and apply your own context to them.

Because... YOU think.... its okay to do so does not make it proper.

Paul was referring to a specific thing, therefore.... STICK TO THE SPECIFIC THING PAUL WAS REFERRING TO.

Firstly, I am sticking to what Paul is saying.

No you're not, you're taking it out of context.

Show me the related verse in Paul's speaking that indicates his use of the term "falling away" means to lose one's salvation.

You can't. Therefore what you are doing is taking what Paul says regarding ministry and falsely suggesting that it means somethning it doesn't.

Secondly, you are tell me to "STICK TO THE SPECIFIC THING PAUL WAS REFERRING TO" but you have yet to offer any sort of explanation as to what you think Paul was referring to. Please, enlighten me.

I guess you don't read my responses to you.

Let me say it again,... To fall away is to become entangled in the ways of the old man, and not to lose the divine seed of life that has been installed in our renewed spirit.

How about for the time being we stick with this verse which happens to represent what I am saying.

It doesn't represent anything close to what you're saying.

Paul addresses nothing anywhere near losing one's salvation.

Please, show me how I am taking it out of context.

Show me the speaking of Paul that refers to losing salvation.

You can't, because Paul doesn't. Thus you are adding context that is not there.

But you have yet to clearly state anything regarding the passage in question.

And now you are lying. Go back and read my posts as I have been very clear in my responses to your erroneous representation of scripture.

You say you have scripture to support your speaking but what you are even speaking is, for the most part, unknown to me. For now, let's stick with this passage.

I'm not surprised, you know very little of the truth of scriptures.

All my speaking has been focused on this scripture you presented.

Oh my goodness...read what you wrote following this statement:

"Secondly,... I don't "seem to think that some fell away for some unknown reason", the scripture is clear, some fell away because of a hardened conscience. Go read my earlier post, I am very clear about just what Paul tells us as being the reason for the falling away of some."

This is the whole point of this discussion cj!!! If some have fallen away, and it doesn't matter when or who or how, as you have just stated and what I have been arguing for this whole time, then OSAS is a false doctrine.

Are you really so blind Free?

Or do you just not understand how to read sentences?

"Fallen away" according to Paul means left the ministry of God, not lost salvation.

There is no scripture that even comes close to suggesting the lie you believe.

In your corrupted understanding it seems that it is impossible for you to see that "falle away" can mean something other than lossing salvation.

Tell me, if I say that I used to excercise but now don't wouldn't that be a type of "falling away"? Sure it would, and to understand the specifics of it we would only need to refer to the context of the speaking which would be excercise. Thus my "falling away" would be from excercise.

In the same way the "falling away" that Paul speaks of is, according to the context, is a "falling away" from God's ministry. There is nothing that indicates a context of lost salvation.

Really, I'm in utter amazement that you are so hardened in your heart and thus blind to this most obvious truth.

I didn't put words in your mouth at all, you've just admitted that people have in the past fallen away from the faith. That's it, game over.

No, you are trying to do just that, and its rather pathetic.

You can't seem to see the forest for the trees. You accuse me of false accusations for things that are irrelevant to the main issue being discussed. When, if you actually read what I wrote, there is no false accusation against you and my whole point was that you had admitted that people fell away while continuing to adhere to a OSAS doctrine, which is totally contradictory.

You're lying again. It really is shameful that you stoop to such poor levels to save face.

Or maybe you are simply out of your league in this discussion.

What in the world does your irrelevant statement have to do with claiming to follow Jesus?

Free, you must be kidding, you can't be so shallow.

As I have to point out once again for the umpteenth time, "if a true saint quits believing" (the main question of this thread), they have "fallen away from the faith," which you seem to agree with. That's it, case closed and OSAS has proven false regardless of who, when, or how.

And again I say,... Free, seriously, you can't be so shallow.

Precious saint,.... God never stops believing for us, and it is His belief, and only His belief that saves us.

Well, this is for the learned to understand now isn't it? From a prof of mine: The Greek in this passage is in the present tense, which means that it is in fact an on going process. That is, we are becoming new creations.

Go tell your prof to give you back the money you paid for the class, cause he short-changed you.

Fact is, it is both a done deal and a process. The process is the outworking of the done deal.

Resurrection life is just God, and the bible says without a doubt that when a man believes he is instantly given a new spirit. No process, no waiting, instant new spirit,.... in which God Himself dwells.

An apple seed contains the apple tree, all that is needed is the process through which it must pass. The principle of regeneration and transformation is the same.

Go ask your esteemed prof this question,.... is it the outward that from which the "newness" of the creation comes or is it the inward from which the "newness" comes?

Allow me to simplify it for you,.... isn't that which defines the mature apple tree the same as that which defines the apple seed?

Here's a hint,..... nature.

As in.... new nature is what defines new creature.


Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh,..... bingo!


See Free,

2 Peter  1 : 4, "Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust."


Check it out,..... Brother Peter declares to us that it is through God's precious and exceedingly great promises.......... that we might become partakers of the divine nature,......

Did you get that? Go ask prof if there is any "process" inherent in the above verse.

Through God's promises Free,... and not through our not falling away,... is how we become partakers of the divine nature.


The nature that turns us into a new creation is just God's nature that He brings into us upon our believing and receiving of our new spirit in which He comes to dwell.


Go read Romans,...... and see this for yourself,.... it is the nature that defines the creature.

Old nature, old creature, new nature, new creature.


I wonder, do you believe you are of a new nature Free, or do you believe you are of the old nature?

Do you believe that? You seem so sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong, but the Greek text proves you wrong.

No Free, Greek text does not prove me wrong in this case.

Understand this,.... the process mus be initiated.

As yourself, what is that initiates the process?

But, I will concede that it is a failure of the English language, not necessarily your interpretation. My point is that you should not be so sure about everything you read in the an English translation of Scripture.

Free, your prof is not the only one who can understand Greek.

Well, since you agree that some have fallen away from the faith, how contributing something useful, such as what you interpret "fall away" to mean, especially in light of the Greek meaning which I gave earlier.

Done.

You are a relatively young Christian, yes? How is it that you have come to seemingly know all about biblical translation and the meaning of every word and text without any serious learning on such subjects, and in such a short amount of time?

God hated when His people numbered anything so as to try an prove themselves something.

And here you go doing the same thing.

Do you really think God is limited by your concept of young and old Free?


But to answer you question,.... I know nothing, except sometimes the taste of Satan's lie.

Many saint's have sacrificed to give us the Lord's light, I just try to sit at their feet and listen, believing/hoping I am listening to the Lord speak. And trusting He will correct what needs to be corrected.

As you grow you will learn that not all is as it appears, that the Bible is much more difficult than initially thought, that the more you learn the less you know. You say my knowledge is vain, and I am willing to accept that it is since I do not know everything. But, so far you have given nothing and have been shown to be wrong on at least one occassion thus far. So far you have been all talk with no substance. Give me something to work with and prove me wrong, based on the passage in question.

I have no desire to "prove" you or anyone else wrong Free,... I'll leave that silliness for those who play Christianity.


Really, you've been adequately rebuffed in posts above, and in this post. You fail to respond to questions and you've expose your weak understanding of scripture.


Perhaps if I am guilty of anything it is of trying to feed you meat when you only have a desire for corrupt milk.


In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

1.What do you think that "fall away" means?"

2. Sounds an aweful lot like the pot calling the kettle black. You seem so sure it isn't saying what I say it is saying but you cannot give an answer either. :-?

3. Here is the definition of "fall away" as provided by Crosswalk.com:
That is the loss of salvation.

4. How is it that the very act believing in Christ's deity and resurrection justifies a person, saving them, yet, according to you, they can quit believing and still be saved? One cannot be justified and be saved apart from belief, so how is it that one can remain saved after renouncing of that belief?

1. One of two views here:
A. If those addressed were still lost - In the context of Galatians it appears there were some who were seeking to justify themselves by the law and not by faith alone. They were not looking to Christ for their justification hence the grace that was available in Christ for them – they missed Christ.
B. If those addressed were saved – In a practical sense, these saints were seeking to live by the works of the law – hence the purpose of Paul writing Galatians. They ceased to “abide in Christ†for their practical outworking of salvation. Instead of letting Christ live for them (Gal. 2:20) they were doing the living and trusting in their own power (the law) and not grace (Tit. 2:11-12). Hence they, as saints, were fallen from the “practical†grace that was available to them to live their Christian lives. Christians lose their grip on grace whenever they fall prey to the teachings of legalism. Believers cease to experience God's grace whenever they attempt to be justified by the works they do or to please God by the works they do.

Take your pick – either way the book of Galatians refutes losing salvation. Paul’s epistles (especially Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians) refute your precious “lose it doctrine†– this damnable doctrine of devils - this doctrine of self-justification (Gal. 1:8,9).

2. I think I just did but you will not and cannot receive it.

3. Nice definition but put it in the context of Paul’s epistles and then the whole book of Galatians.

4. I’ve covered this before and will again though you will reject it: A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16). Dead men cannot see nor choose Christ (Rom. 3 and II Cor. 3:4). God draws the sinner by his Spirit in time because he was chosen from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1). When the Spirit quickens and regenerates the sinner then he comes alive and then he can believe the gospel because the blinders have been removed. Then and only then can he believe the gospel. Only regenerated people can see the gospel – the true gospel is hid to the lost – they can’t see it. The believing did not justify him – the work of Christ did the justifying – the believing was just the result of him being quickened and regenerated.

I think many of you folks think that all that happened at the point of salvation was that you believed a message or made some commitment to Christ, you got the Holy Spirit, and then it is left in your power to work it out thus making your “working it out†the basis for your standing and justification before God. Wrong! You missed Calvary.

One more time with feeling: “so how is it that one can remain saved after renouncing of that belief?†Answer – his believing did not do the justifying – Calvary did the work. You can’t see that can you? II Cor. 3:4

Now Free, I answered your questions. Will you answer min? Show me what happened at Calvary and then show me how all that is undone when one “falls away†in your eyes. I’m listening – I’m easy to get along with.

God bless

 

[thessalonian]

I think many of you folks think that all that happened at the point of salvation was that you believed a message or made some commitment to Christ, you got the Holy Spirit, and then it is left in your power to work it out thus making your “working it out†the basis for your standing and justification before God. Wrong! You missed Calvary.

WRONG! In fact you say "you got the holy spirit, then it is left to your own power to work it out". Why do you think we believe the Holy Spirit in us sits back and rests? Quit telling us what we think. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is the saved know God is working in their lives and cooperate with it. The unsaved resist the Holy Spirit. Life in Christ is a life in grace. But we can fall from grace. You say we cannot yet the Bible clearly says we can in Gal 5 which you keep twisting based on your pre-concieved notions and verse trumping.