Our bodies, even now, contain the same elements as dust. I'm not a scientist but I remember hearing that. No new elements exist. Only God can give life. God gave life to something that He made, man, that He had not yet made alive. Breath. We are infused with something from God, life,breath, not something of or part of God. So when the body dies we don't loose a piece of God, our life leaves our body. And where does that life go I wonder? The way you say it, evertime someone dies a part of God is lost. The life is separated from the body at death, that does not mean that life became no life.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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What is a man?
- Thread starter Butch5
- Start date
Try putting it in its full context, the before and after scriptures, who was receiving/hearing,
and then zero in on why. The rest of the Bible. Why was it happening and to what person, and why that person/people, and the efffect it had on the NT church and us. What it teaches us. About Jesus. The point and subject of the Gospels is always Jesus. Not us, not periphial speculations and curiosities. Jesus.
Butch5
Member
I would submit that it is a part of God. In the book of Job we find this,
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;1
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)
Both the word spirit and breath come from Hebrew words that man wind or breath. Here we find that if God were to gather His breath all flesh would die.
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4 KJV)
Here again we see that it's the breath of God.
Nothing of God dies. The breath returns to God. It's His, it doesn't die. The man dies.
In Ezekiel 37 God gives a picture of the resurrection. After bringing the dry bones together and putting flesh on them he tells Ezekiel that this is the house of Israel. It's a picture of the Resurrection. What's interesting is what God says about them.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:13-14 KJV)
They live because God puts His breath in them. The picture of breath is that it is something breathed out of God and into man. The words breath and spirit are translated from the same words. Paul said that it is the breath or the spirit that gives life. Most people believe that the spirit of God is and comes from God.
Butch5
Member
I didn't give you speculations. Peter stated plainly that it was the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus had already come the first time and was there. What other coming could it be except the second coming. It couldn't have been the first. Mathew and Luke both record Jesus as saying that certain of those standing with Him wouldn't taste of death until they saw the kingdom coming in power. Then they immediately give the account of the transfiguration.
There's no speculation there. It's stated plainly
Butch5
Member
I'm not knocking you. Everybody has presuppositions, there's no way around that. You said,
"I did not interpret the scripture through my presuppositions. I didn't have any, other than what it always seemed to say to me the first time I read it, with no presuppositions."
The Bible says that Jesus is God. When you read that did you know what God meant? if so, that's a presupposition. If the Bible says so and so died, you understand that based on what you understand death to be, correct? That's a presupposition. We all have beliefs, things that we hold as true. These are our presuppositions. When I read the Bible and see the passage that says, "Jesus wept", I understand that He cried. I understand that He cried according to what I understand crying to be. That's a presupposition.
Many people Christians and non Christians believe that some part of man lives on after the body dies. That's a presupposition. I don't believe that man lives on after death. That's a different presupposition. Let's look at the thief on the cross. One person who believes that man lives on after death reads that passage and concludes that Jesus and the thief were in paradise that day. I don't believe that man lives on after death so when I read that passage I conclude that Jesus and the thief weren't in paradise that day. So, I believe they weren't there and the other person believes they were. Now look at the passage. The person who believes that man can live on apart from the body reads the passage this way
And Jesus said to him Assuredly I say to you / today you will be with Me in Paradise
I don't believe man lives on and I read the passage this way.
And Jesus said to him Assuredly I say to you today / you will be with Me in Paradise
It's the same passage but we read it two different ways based on what we believe to be true, our presuppositions. Because I presuppose that man cannot live apart from the body, I interpret the verse one way. The other person who believes man can live apart from the body interprets it a different way. Our prior beliefs or presuppositions determined how each of us interpreted the passage.
Here's another example. Take two scientist one is a Christian and one isn't. They're present with certain evidence and one concludes that evolution is an amazing process, the other concludes that God has done amazing things. the same evidence but two different conclusions, why? Their presuppositions. One presupposes that God created all things and the other doesn't presuppose God at all.
This is why I say we can't get away from using our presuppositions when interpreting the text. We have a core set of beliefs that we hold true. This applies to every aspect of life. The problem comes when one or more of those presuppositions are wrong. That's why sometimes we have to challenge our own presuppositions against Scripture
Butch5
Member
You'd come to a different conclusion. That's my point. What we believe before reading the Bible influences how we interpret the Bible
You have your point backwards it seems to me. You said what if I presupposed dead is dead and then read the passage. And I said I would change my mind, dead is not dead. So how did my Supposed supposition influence my belief?
Well duh! What's your point besides talking ad nauseaum about PRESUPPOSITIONS?!
Butch5
Member
So, if told you martians were in my yard last night would believe that?
So if post the passage says the dead k ow nothing you'll believe that?
Butch5
Member
My point was to explain presuppositions. Your statement that you don't use presuppositions to interpret the text suggests you don't really understand presuppositions. Everyone has them and everyone uses them all the time.
I never needed it explained to me. And not 5,000 times
Huh? Bye.
Butch5
Member
Apparently you didn't understand because you said you don't interpret the Scriptures with presuppositions. Everyone who reads the Bible does.
Where is this taught in scripture?
It seems that scriptures teach that when we die we are DEAD and the dead know nothing. Sometime after death, there will come a resurrection (John 5:28-30) where judgment followed by a judgment where some will be gifted with life under the reign of the Kingdom of God while others will be punished and destroyed with a second death from which there is no resurrection.
Butch5
Member
I comes from several passages. When Jesus was on the cross the thief asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His kingdom. Jesus' reply was that the thief would be with Him in Paradise. So, Jesus equates His Kingdom and Paradise. The word that is transliterated Paradise literally means a garden. Eden was called a Paradise. In Rev. 2 Jesus said that those who overcome He would give to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the Paradise of God. The Tree of Life is located in the Paradise (garden) of Eden. Before the Transfiguration Jesus said there were some standing with Him that wouldn't taste death until they saw Him coming in His kingdom. Mathew and Luke both record this and them immediately give the account of the Transfiguration, indicating that this was the coming of the Kingdom. Peter. likewise, recounts this event in his epistle as the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This would indicate that the second coming is the kingdom. According to John in Revelation Christ will reign a thousand years. At the end of Revelation John says he saw the Holy City descending out of Heaven and says that God will dwell with men. The picture that develops is that of an earthly kingdom in which Christ will reign in which will be the Paradise of God.
Ok so almost everyone believes we have a spirit, but one man thinks no, so...you must be right! Uhh...
Make it at least 2 men who think no............
I do not share this take. It seems to me that Pentecost in Acts 2 is a more likely account as well as those that would be alive at Jesus' coming on the clouds in the 1st century for his called ones.
Not exactly. In Rev 20, it says the martyred saints would reign with Jesus for 1000 years. It doesn't in any way limit the time of Jesus' reign nor does it tell us the precise locale.
AT this point, a new Heaven and a new Earth are very likely in play, and though I capitalized both (forgive my punctuation), the translators may very well have meant new land and skies when using those terms. In the age to come who can say what and where that land and sky will be?
Butch5
Member
Well, Jesus said it they would see the kingdom coming.
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
(Mk. 9:1-9 KJV)
Mathew ties the two together. And as I said, Peter recounts the event as the power and coming of Christ.
No, the passage doesn't expressly state that Christ will reign for a thousand years. However, Paul says that Christ will reign until all enemies are put under Jesus. In Rev 20 we see the Devil is bound for a thousand years then released for a short season to tempt the nations, He is then thrown into the Lake of Fire along with death and Hades. Paul says that the last enemy is death. So it's destroyed at the end of the thousand years. At this point all enemies have been put under Christ. Paul said Christ must reign until all enemies are put under Him.
We do know what the land is. Peter said that Christ must remain in Heaven until the rest restitution of all things. The creation will be restored. Paul said that the creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God. We know it will be the same as before because, one, it is a restoration, and two, God had promised to give to Abraham all the land that he could see, however, he never received it.
Tangent alert:
1 Corinthians 15 is a chapter that really perplexes me. I've gone a few years thinking a had a full grasp of it and then I reread it and end up scratching my head. I have found it a bit of a challenge to reconcile with other resurrection passages like John 5:28-29. My bridge has always been Revelation 20:4-5 which caused me to break up John 5 into two separate resurrections with the first being exclusively for martyred saints mentioned in verse 4 and correlating that to 1 Cor 15:42 and following. I then am left to conclude/concede that John 5 and Revelation 20:5-6 are speaking of the same event.