What is a man?

[GodsGrace]

As a warning to the Jewish leadership that their assumed favored position as Abraham's seed and heirs would be given to others and they would regret their wicked ways that brought about their fall from the favored position in "Abraham's Bosom."

This is interesting.
What about the fact that the Sadducees didn't even believe in an afterlife?
They went to Abraham's Bossom after death.....
When Jesus spoke about the favored position that the Pharisees and Sadducees had, He meant that they believed they were the FAVORED of God and were saved.

For example,,,Matthew 3:9

Being a son of Abraham did not matter...
Jesus taught we had to be children of God...born again and saved.

 

[The Light]

What about the fact that the Sadducees didn't even believe in an afterlife?
They went to Abraham's Bossom after death.....

For this analogy, I don't see how what the Sadducees believed would have any relevance. What I am espousing however, is that in Luke 16 Abraham's Bosom is not an actual place but rather represents the favor of the Lord promised to Abraham's children.

When Jesus spoke about the favored position that the Pharisees and Sadducees had, He meant that they believed they were the FAVORED of God and were saved.

I agree, it's clear that Jesus was reprimanding and correcting the leadership as they thought they were innately special due to being born into Israel.

 

[GodsGrace]

For this analogy, I don't see how what the Sadducees believed would have any relevance. What I am espousing however, is that in Luke 16 Abraham's Bosom is not an actual place but rather represents the favor of the Lord promised to Abraham's children.


I agree, it's clear that Jesus was reprimanding and correcting the leadership as they thought they were innately special due to being born into Israel.

Hi Light...
You said this in post 501:

As a warning to the Jewish leadership that their assumed favored position as Abraham's seed and heirs would be given to others and they would regret their wicked ways that brought about their fall from the favored position in "Abraham's Bosom."

Maybe I misunderstood you...
Apparently you did not mean Abraham's Bossom as in the afterlife,
but as a favored position.
OK.
I understand now, but I still believe this is a true story
because it's based on what heaven and paradise and hell are really like.

I'll post this link because it explains what I believe...

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www.scripturessay.com

 

[Avigdor]

Job, Samuel's mother, and Solomon all described death as a "sleep" of sorts where there was nothing. What each said was that God would call and then the dead would be resurrected. The OT taught that there would be a resurrection of the dead, Mary and Martha echoed this in John when referencing Lazarus. That doctrine was pretty clear.

Did they describe it as a sleep or a sleep where there is nothing? If you would reference the scriptures please I would appreciate it. I truthfully don't know exactly how they described it and I am typing now, not looking up scriptures.

If it is a sleep of sorts, and also in the case of Lazarus, might they merely be using the human words that humans use to describe the death of a body. What it looks like and actually is from our point of view? They are after all talking about a body that died, and are in no way talking about an afterlife. So, the dead bodies will be resurrected and united with our soul/spirit. Where is our soul in the meantime?

 

[The Light]

If you would reference the scriptures please I would appreciate it. I truthfully don't know exactly how they described it and I am typing now, not looking up scriptures.

My pleasure:
1 Samuel 2:6-8 (the song of Hannah)
Job 14:9-15 (The Patriarch's hope)
John 11:21-26 (Martha & Jesus)
Daniel 12:2 (The Prophets)
Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (Solomon)

 

[The Light]

They are after all talking about a body that died, and are in no way talking about an afterlife. So, the dead bodies will be resurrected and united with our soul/spirit. Where is our soul in the meantime?

The concept of an afterlife is missing from biblical teachings. What we find in scripture is life, death, then a resurrection with nothing in between death and it.

 

[The Light]

...I still believe this is a true story
because it's based on what heaven and paradise and hell are really like.

Where in the scriptures does it detail what the afterlife is like?

 

[Avigdor]

The concept of an afterlife is missing from biblical teachings. What we find in scripture is life, death, then a resurrection with nothing in between death and it.

I disagree with this. It is kind of all over the place. It is about preparing for the afterlife, and I know you believe that is life after resurrection. Are our souls dead too when our body dies? If so at the resurrection wouldn't we have to have a new soul? One that isn't us? And if our soul isn't dead, where is it?

 

[Avigdor]

My pleasure:
1 Samuel 2:6-8 (the song of Hannah)
Job 14:9-15 (The Patriarch's hope)
John 11:21-26 (Martha & Jesus)
Daniel 12:2 (The Prophets)
Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (Solomon)

Thanks. I have to exit for a bit but will get back to you after I have read them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where in the scriptures does it detail what the afterlife is like?

I was referring to Luke 16:19-31
Hell is spoken of in many verses.
Jesus refers to it as being like fire.
And in Luke 16 it sounds terrible.

 

[The Light]

Are our souls dead too when our body dies? If so at the resurrection wouldn't we have to have a new soul? One that isn't us? And if our soul isn't dead, where is it?

From what I've read, it would seem that the thought that we have souls as opposed to us being souls is flawed. The entirety of myself is my living soul. My "spirit" is my personality. None of those things are separate from me, they ARE me, and when I die they cease to exist outside of the memories they created for others during life.
To put it simply, at death, the entirety of who we are STOPS LIVING. Death is simply the cessation of life and it provides no adobe for anyone as death has no experience.

 

[The Light]

I was referring to Luke 16:19-31
Hell is spoken of in many verses.
Jesus refers to it as being like fire.
And in Luke 16 it sounds terrible.

In Luke's retelling of Jesus' address to the Pharisees, he used the Greek concept of Hades that was popular during that time period to illustrate a point to them.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Luke's retelling of Jesus' address to the Pharisees, he used the Greek concept of Hades that was popular during that time period to illustrate a point to them.

I have to leave now....
but are you saying that Luke 16:19-31 is LUKE'S idea and not JESUS' idea?
It sounds like y our'e saying that LUKE used the concept of Hades because it was popular at that time.

Wasn't the story told by Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

From what I've read, it would seem that the thought that we have souls as opposed to us being souls is flawed. The entirety of myself is my living soul. My "spirit" is my personality. None of those things are separate from me, they ARE me, and when I die they cease to exist outside of the memories they created for others during life.
To put it simply, at death, the entirety of who we are STOPS LIVING. Death is simply the cessation of life and it provides no adobe for anyone as death has no experience.

You have the above all backwards and agree with Butch5.
I wonder if you attend the same denomination.
Too tired now, but if you want to, we could continue this tomorrow.
Please send a reply if you do.

Not that you'll agree, but I wonder if you understand what other Christians believe?

'night.

 

[The Light]

are you saying that Luke 16:19-31 is LUKE'S idea and not JESUS' idea?

Not at all. Luke simply chronicled and gave an account of what handed down from eyewitnesses and servants of the word (Luke 1:1-4). The analogy was Jesus', not Luke's.

 

[Avigdor]

From what I've read, it would seem that the thought that we have souls as opposed to us being souls is flawed. The entirety of myself is my living soul. My "spirit" is my personality. None of those things are separate from me, they ARE me, and when I die they cease to exist outside of the memories they created for others during life.
To put it simply, at death, the entirety of who we are STOPS LIVING. Death is simply the cessation of life and it provides no adobe for anyone as death has no experience.

I agree that we are one unit, body and soul, some would also add spirit but the Bible uses soul and spirit interchangeably. So I will stick to body and soul. That is us. Spirit may be life, as "God breathed life into them." But when the Bible speaks of the resurrection it is of the body. The body is perishable (but only since our fall). All scriptures I read (or I read them that way) indicate that life is not perishable. Yes our bodies are dead but we still alive, waiting until we are reunited with our bodies. What about when it talks in Revelation about the saints that have gone before us surrounding the throne? Or in Hebrews when it speaks of us on earth being surrounded by a great congregation of saints that have died?

 

[The Light]

You have the above all backwards and agree with Butch5.
I wonder if you attend the same denomination.
Too tired now, but if you want to, we could continue this tomorrow.
Please send a reply if you do.

Not that you'll agree, but I wonder if you understand what other Christians believe?

I also am persuaded that the scriptures are very much in support of much that is termed Preterist; does that make me a bad person too?

 

[GodsGrace]

I also am persuaded that the scriptures are very much in support of much that is termed Preterist; does that make me a bad person too?

I didn't say you're a bad person Light.
I'm sorry if that's what you understood.
Also, I don't know what a preterist is,,,
but I know how we're made up because
I've had to teach it.

Maybe you already know it....
we'll see, but tomorrow.

 

[The Light]

What about when it talks in Revelation about the saints that have gone before us surrounding the throne?

This delves into it a bit (Post #4).

Let's talk About Heaven

A lot of people make the mistake of reading John chapters 14-17 then taking the words of Jesus and applying those words to you, I, and everyone when in fact He was addressing a very specific group. I will totally admit that the whole Heaven promise or should I say invite is difficult to grasp...

christianforums.net

 

[The Light]

I didn't say you're a bad person Light.
I'm sorry if that's what you understood.

I was joking, friend.