What is church?

[Denique Coelum]

Worship God on any day its wonderful, but Sunday was chosen by its Roman leader Constantine as the Sabbath to stop worshipers keeping the God given Sabbath that Jesus kept which was sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. The day may not matter but there is always something of God's intent in the day of rest that he chose for us

Sunday to honor the Sun God
Monday to honor the moon
Wednesday to honor Woden
Thursday to honor Thor and so on

I feel the same... about calling it Sunday, I mean. We always refer to it as the Lord's Day. I don't think it's right for us to call it Sunday.

 

[ivorhughjarse]

Romans 14

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
.

I really don't understand what you are trying to convey. :dunno

Me too... the King James is strangely worded but there are some principles. The Sabbath is part of the ten commandments which can be viewed as the big commands written by God's finger don't forget.. just look at the subjects that they cover....Romans never mentions the Sabbath here, other translations have a similar flippant manner using the term "one day" as one day being the same as another as when speaking about a feast day but the Sabbath was never a feast day it was far more central core to their lives to be acceptable to his audience to be thrown away so casually

 

[Elijah674]

Do you have proof? You are talking about millions of Christians when you use the word "Church." I know I certainly do no reject the first century Christians.



So. Does that somehow nullify the fact that the Apostles and early Church met on Sundays?



Non sequitur. What does this have to do with Christians meeting on Sunday?



Since when have gentiles ever entered into the Covenant of Moses? Any gentile who sought salvation after the coming of Christ, did so by entering through the New Covenant of Christ. The early church was severely persecuted, and Jews who accepted Christ were being thrown out of the temple. The early Church celebrated "the day of honoring God" on Sunday. It's not a big deal, as long as, God is honored because that's what matters the most.

I will tell you what 'i' (that is a little i) think. When [we] will be again put to death for LOVING CHRIST IN OBEDIENCE, (666) we will then find out which day for worship is to be kept!;)
--Elijah

 

[theLords]

Me too... the King James is strangely worded but there are some principles. The Sabbath is part of the ten commandments which can be viewed as the big commands written by God's finger don't forget.. just look at the subjects that they cover....Romans never mentions the Sabbath here, other translations have a similar flippant manner using the term "one day" as one day being the same as another as when speaking about a feast day but the Sabbath was never a feast day it was far more central core to their lives to be acceptable to his audience to be thrown away so casually

Well, you've basically just presented me your opinion/interpretation. I, personally, only go by Scripture. I don't know what else to say. You choose not to commune with fellow believers (in church, be it Saturday or Sunday) so I don't understand why you are arguing the issue.

 

[Tina]

Worship God on any day its wonderful, but Sunday was chosen by its Roman leader Constantine as the Sabbath to stop worshipers keeping the God given Sabbath that Jesus kept which was sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. The day may not matter but there is always something of God's intent in the day of rest that he chose for us

Sunday to honor the Sun God
Monday to honor the moon
Wednesday to honor Woden
Thursday to honor Thor and so on

You know, Saturday also rhymes very close to Saturn... :biglol


worse ... satan ..... :o



How amusing that people use all kinds of creative logic to support their biased personal beliefs !

Nice try ! :D

 

[ivorhughjarse]

Well, you've basically just presented me your opinion/interpretation. I, personally, only go by Scripture. I don't know what else to say. You choose not to commune with fellow believers (in church, be it Saturday or Sunday) so I don't understand why you are arguing the issue.

No you don't.. if that is the case why change from the Sabbath that God established to a different one? Only those who attend A Church can speak of God? Do you make them dress smartly too?

is it my opinion/interpretation?
God commanded the Sabbath when writing it with his finger, the nation kept the same Sabbath, Jesus kept the same Sabbath, His disciples kept the same Sabbath, the first followers kept the same Sabbath the Jews keep the same Sabbath. Todays Christians don't!.. so someone somewhere once started another Sabbath..it may not matter at all but its interesting to find out why if it meant so much to God in the first instance and why we do what we do today.

 

[jasoncran]

simple you gentiles werent at horeb,

the first part of the bible is for the hebrews as it was writtent to them about them. we read it from their perspective and then see what the nt was about and how the gentiles go the baton passed to us and also the jews that believed as well.God revealed himself to men in the past who wrote what they saw from their perspective and then it was passed on to us.

the first audience of the covenant cant be ignored. jesus btw is our shabat and that is what the shabat alludes too.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Church is the body of Christ, his devoted believers; us. I've always disliked referring to buildings as churches, they're temples not churches. The church is the men, women, and children who fill the temple.

 

[Tina]

is it my opinion/interpretation?
God commanded the Sabbath when writing it with his finger, the nation kept the same Sabbath, Jesus kept the same Sabbath, His disciples kept the same Sabbath, the first followers kept the same Sabbath the Jews keep the same Sabbath. Todays Christians don't!.. so someone somewhere once started another Sabbath..it may not matter at all but its interesting to find out why if it meant so much to God in the first instance and why we do what we do today.

(1) Show us an NT verse that commands that God is to be worshipped only on Saturdays.

(2) If you cannot prove point (1) above, then at least show us an NT verse that warns us that not worshipping God on Saturdays is a SIN.


(3) If you cannot answer points (1) & (2) above, then please explain the following NT verse in which Jesus said that not only did the priests profaned the Sabbath but they are BLAMELESS :-


Matthew 12:5
Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless ?

 

[jasoncran]

in the torah the shabat was a day of rest and to worship god.that is why the priests who had to prepare for the worship are blameless.

the pharisees made the law to heavy and burdensome and the shabat was for men and they pharisees made it the reverse. they polluted the law with their regulations.

 

[Tina]

How could preparing for the worship on Sabbath be considered "profane" by Jesus ??


Dictonary definition of "profane" -- to treat something sacred with abuse, irreverence or contempt ; desecrate ; corrupt ; cheapen ; pervert ; poison .....

 

[ivorhughjarse]

(1) Show us an NT verse that commands that God is to be worshipped only on Saturdays.

(2) If you cannot prove point (1) above, then at least show us an NT verse that warns us that not worshipping God on Saturdays is a SIN.

(3) If you cannot answer points (1) & (2) above, then please explain the following NT verse in which Jesus said that not only did the priests profaned the Sabbath but they are BLAMELESS :-

Matthew 12:5
Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless ?

we will never agree but...God's people had a lunar calender, they divided night and day and every 7 days there has been the Sabbath. For whatever reason and by whoever a second Sabbath has been established within the 7 day period. You may not question why it was not kept the same day, but I do. It may not matter to you in the slightest but it may do to someone else. The crux of the matter is that no one will keep two Sabbaths in the same week so people are therefore forced to choose. The Jew and the Gentile will never be able to share Sabbath together!!!. Is that God's plan?

 

[theLords]

No you don't..

I presented Romans 14, and there are several Scriptures which speak of the early Christian (Jewish and gentile) church communing on "the first day of the week. So far, you have not presented one single Scripture verse.

if that is the case why change from the Sabbath that God established to a different one?

The Sabbath is God's day of rest. If any gentile sought salvation pre-Christ, he went in through the Covenant of Moses. If any gentile sought salvation post-Christ he has to go in through the New Covenant. Were or are you a Jew who was present at the foott of Mt. Sinai or a descendent of one who was? If you are going to keep the Sabbath and argue that it can only be the last day of the week because that's how the Jews do it... well, then are you: removing your chametz on the Eve of Passover (Ex. 12:15)? are you fasting on Yom Kippur (Lev. 23:27)? are you mixing garments made of wool and linen together (Deut. 22:11)? Because if you are or are not, you have broken a mitzvot(s) and need to seek forgiveness when Yom Kippur comes around!

If you are going to follow the Covenant of Moses then you are going to have to obey all 613 mitzvots.

James 2:13
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Only those who attend A Church can speak of God? Do you make them dress smartly too?

You identify yourself as a "non-Christian" and isolate yourself from the Christian community by not going to church (the banana that gets separated from the bunch gets pulled and eaten. see 1 Peter 5:8), yet somehow I'm to take your words at face value? :eeeekkk

is it my opinion/interpretation?

Yes, it's your opinion. You have not yet provided one Scripture verse to determine Christians must keep the Sabbath on Saturday.

God commanded the Sabbath when writing it with his finger,

Christians give a day to honor God, and most keep it on Sunday. However, there are several Christians who keep it on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday...etc. I know of a nurse who works in the ER who keeps the Sabbath on Wednesday. She is honoring God, and keeping the spirit of the command. What is the point of keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, if one is not going to honor God or is keeping it for the sake of self-righteousness so that others can see how "holy" one is?

the nation kept the same Sabbath,

If you want to be included with those who had heaven and earth testify that they will obey God's commands through the Covenant of Moses...well, okay. But, don't forget--that same nation broke their Covenant with God.

Jesus kept the same Sabbath,

Jesus was a Jew who did not break a single mitzvoh.

His disciples kept the same Sabbath,

His disciples were Jewish.

the first followers kept the same Sabbath

They first followers also met on the first day of the week.

Acts 20:7 (NIV)
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

the Jews keep the same Sabbath.

The Jews are under the Covenant of Moses, and the Jews today are in violation of the Covenant because they do not follow all 613 mitzvohs.

Todays Christians don't!.. so someone somewhere once started another Sabbath..it may not matter at all but its interesting to find out why if it meant so much to God in the first instance and why we do what we do today.

Colossians 2:16-17 (NIV)
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Galatians 4:8-10 (NLT)
So now that you know God (or should I say, now that God knows you), why do you want to go back again and become slaves once more to the weak and useless spiritual principles of this world? You are trying to earn favor with God by observing certain days or months or seasons or years.

 

[ivorhughjarse]

I like your reasoning until the Col 2.16 at the end, I do hope that you are not a leader using that scripture out of context to show an end of the Sabbath when its speaking of what food we can eat.

and no i have not used a single scripture and you have used lots

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Worship God on any day its wonderful, but Sunday was chosen by its Roman leader Constantine as the Sabbath to stop worshipers keeping the God given Sabbath that Jesus kept which was sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. The day may not matter but there is always something of God's intent in the day of rest that he chose for us

Sunday to honor the Sun God
Monday to honor the moon
Wednesday to honor Woden
Thursday to honor Thor and so on

Being Biblical also means knowing people don't have to keep a literal Sabbath anymore. There is no judgment connected with it anymore. That's why we are to not let anyone judge us in regard to that and other first covenant worship requirements.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I like your reasoning until the Col 2.16 at the end, I do hope that you are not a leader using that scripture out of context to show an end of the Sabbath when its speaking of what food we can eat.

Hebrews is where we learn how the first covenant system of temple, sacrifice, and priesthood with it's times and dates and seasons have been made obsolete and no longer applicable to a nation of 'called out ones' (the 'church') who have been made forever perfect, and brought near to God through the new and better Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This, too, is what it means to know and follow the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

we will never agree but...God's people had a lunar calender, they divided night and day and every 7 days there has been the Sabbath. For whatever reason and by whoever a second Sabbath has been established within the 7 day period. You may not question why it was not kept the same day, but I do. It may not matter to you in the slightest but it may do to someone else. The crux of the matter is that no one will keep two Sabbaths in the same week so people are therefore forced to choose. The Jew and the Gentile will never be able to share Sabbath together!!!. Is that God's plan?

I personally think it is, in the sense that God let us gentiles do what we want as part of making the Jews jealous.

Although I don't think it was necessarily God's express will and desire that the gentiles abandon the schedule of worship, I do believe the division created by the gentiles making their own 'festival cycle', so to speak, has been allowed by God, just as he allowed the 10 tribes to break away and change the festivals and pollute them with pagan rituals, and told the remaining tribes to "not go up to fight against your brothers, the Israelites...for this is my doing." (1 Kings 12:24 NIV1984) Don't fight against was God has apparently allowed to happen. And like I say, for the purpose of further arousing the Jews jealousy for their God and the law...the God and the ways of the law they forsook and are now seeing trampled under foot by the gentiles.

 

[ivorhughjarse]

on post 36..did you accidentally miss the word Sabbath there...or did you intend to cover the things that have been done away with and hope we put the Sabbath in there by mistake

 

[ivorhughjarse]

I personally think it is, in the sense that God let us gentiles do what we want as part of making the Jews jealous.

Although I don't think it was necessarily God's express will and desire that the gentiles abandon the schedule of worship, I do believe the division created by the gentiles making their own 'festival cycle', so to speak, has been allowed by God, just as he allowed the 10 tribes to break away and change the festivals and pollute them with pagan rituals, and told the remaining tribes to "not go up to fight against your brothers, the Israelites...for this is my doing." (1 Kings 12:24 NIV1984) Don't fight against was God has apparently allowed to happen. And like I say, for the purpose of further arousing the Jews jealousy for their God and the law...the God and the ways of the law they forsook and are now seeing trampled under foot by the gentiles.

good answer....i will consider those points thank you

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not convinced there are not good churches left to go to. Yes, they are few in number, and even among them are those who have a misguided and uneducated view of what God intended 'church' to be all about. But being in the body of Christ means accepting all the parts of the body knowing that "the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty...so that there should be no division in the body" (1 Cor. 12:23,25 NIV1984)

We're not real good at doing that in the church. We are waaaay more about our divisions and our condemning one another than we are about bearing with one another. ***And trust me, that has included me more often than I want that to be true.

"15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." (Gal. 5:15 NIV1984)