God's ordination is the cause of ANYONE'S believing. I agree with you. It's all Grace. Where we disagree is that certain "elect" are predestined for Heaven and the others are predestined for Hell. This is not taught in Scripture.
Two things. While its nice to agree, I think we view the phrase "It's all Grace" very differently. You would say that grace is
necessary for everything and anything, I would say that Grace is
sufficient. The difference is quite great.
Concerning concept of predestination, it is true that the scriptures does not use the term "predestination" with reference to those going to hell. The term predestination is used concerning those going to heaven in Ephesians and Romans 8. I suspect that your are speaking of those going to hell.
I would of course mention that while the term itself is not used of the reprobate, the concept of Gods absolute sovereignty is there. Romans 9:21-22 definitely has such a concept. More than this, other scriptures do speak of God's decree for evil. Acts 2:23 speaks of the determinate council of God deciding that Christ himself would be given over into the hands of evil men. Certainly we agree that this was for a purpose of a far greater good, but it does not nullify that God predetermined an evil in that passage. I guess you mention this below and call it a "special case." Well, no, I think God did this many other times.
---When Joseph was put in the pit and sold into slavery in Genesis, and later his brothers come before him expecting retribution, Jospeh answers them "Am I in the place of God." In other words, it is the place of God to decree what evil will happen. God chooses when to restrain evil, and when not to restrain evil but rather too use it for a greater good. Joseph mentions that it was God's intent to use the evil of the brothers to bring about a greater good, the deliverance of many (from starvation).
---God decreed that Israel (northern 10 tribes) was to be given over into the hands of Assyria for their discipline, but then turned around and destroyed Assyria for their sin.
I would agree that God does not cause evil, but he permits evil for a purpose. There are two purposes for evil, one is to show his goodness is greater than evil. The 2nd purpose is again found in Romans 9:22, it is to display his power. It is so that he might make manifest the full range of his glorious attributes. We are not only to see his mercy, love, and grace, but his glorious power in crushing sin.
For him to crush sin, sin must exist. There can only be two possibilities. Maybe God just got lucky and some chose to rebel and he is then able to crush sin. The 2nd choice is that God from eternity past planned for a universe in which specific acts of sin were to come about. He intended for it to happen. He did not participate in the evil, but it did not at all surprise him because he intended it for the purpose of crushing sin and also for the purpose of manifesting his glorious goodness which triumphs over sin.
Christ is sort of a special case, don't you think? Israel is called the "elect", it's true, which makes my point. Here is a group, and organization, if you will that's elected. The people within Judaism are the elect. Whether they STAY elected or decide to reject their election is up to them individually. This foreshadows the Church. Again, of course the Church is made up of individuals, but the elect are the members of this Church, which is a decision. A decision that's made every day.
It seems to me that we have some confusion here. Yes, Israel is elected, but in different senses. Israel is elected to be a vessel of revelation to all mankind. This does not speak of their salvation. On the other hand, individual Israelite's are also elected to salvation in Romans 9. As far as rejecting "it." The Israelites chosen to reveal God to the world will do exactly as decreed. If God decrees their evil behavior, they will do it. They will crucify the Son of God. Israel makes a decision to crusify Christ because God wanted and decreed it to happen.
This issue is related to the nature of prophecy. Think of all those predictive prophecies of Christ, his birth, his death. Do we have these sovereign events that God finds some crystal ball and peers into the future? Or did God know the future because he decreed those events from eternity past. In the first scenario, we have sovereign events that God can see. In the 2nd, we have an all powerful sovereign God who brings all to pass either by his own intervention for good, or his refusal to intervene in the case of an evil decree.
No, it wouldn't. I do think EVERY individual is called or chosen or whatever, for salvation. No one is chosen for damnation, which is really where we disagree. The point is that the vehicle of that election unto salvation is the Church.
dadoften, we must be cautious here of stepping over lines. We are both aware of issues in the background here.
I would disagree that the Church is the vehicle of salvation or election. That was the shed blood of Christ, and his shed blood alone. This blood is not the possession of any specific denomination.
I think you misunderstood my view. All are chosen for salvation, though not all accept this calling and so remove themselves from the ranks of the "elect". Because a person accepts this calling and becomes an "elect" person, doesn't mean he can't, at some time in the future, decide to reject this "election". This is what Scripture teaches.
OK, I do not always get what everyone is saying the first time. I am sure you will clear up what you are saying, as you are.
I do not see any scripture anywhere that teaches universal election. If you do, please provide a text.
It seem to me what is being said by you is not that there is a decree by God. How can God make a decree and men are able to choose not to follow the decree? What kind of a decree is that? Does God control anything at all? Does he just sit back and look into the future and hope he gets lucky? Again, please provide a text for universal election.
Good to see you too. I don't know where Francis got off to. I hope he returns soon though.
LOL, yeah it would make it kind of like the "good ole days." Maybe we could once again debate sola scriptura or sola fide. Or maybe we did that enough already... : ).