So in your first reference, your saying this is a demonstration that faith precedes regeneration? Can you tell me what phrase in the verse speaks of regeneration?
It doesn't. It speaks of being assured of what the truth is. That is what faith is. It's
knowing that something you can't see is true.
Do you disagree? The prerequisite for trusting in the truth is that you know it's even true to begin with. Do you disagree? I'm sure you don't, so how can knowing the truth be the same as being born again since some reject what God shows them to be the truth and are not saved (as I showed you in Romans and 1 John)?
My question is can you prove that faith (any faith, any defnintion of faith you want) can you supply even one reference to demonstrate that faith precedes regeneration? You made the claim that faith precedes regeneration, please provide a verse that demonstrates your opinion.
Well, you're not going to heed the definition the Bible itself gives for faith, and you're not going to see that the Bible also says 'faith' does not automatically equate to salvation (James 2), so let's try this:
"...the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Romans 3:22 NASB)
Sounds kind of redundant, doesn't it? Why is it necessary for Paul to make the distinction between 'faith in Jesus Christ' and 'all those who believe'?
You see faith is efficacious
to those who believe, not to those who know the truth (by faith--there is no other way to know the truth) but who then don't believe after God has given them that ability to know what he wants them to believe in is true.
The righteousness of God (justification) does not come to those who simply know the truth about the righteousness of God. It comes to those who know about and
believe in what God has shown them about the righteousness of God. Or do you want to argue the point that simply knowing the truth about the gospel is what saves? What you have to show me is knowing the gospel is true is not faith.
Do you disagree that God gives us faith (noun) to then believe (verb)? I guess you do because you've probably been taught that faith (knowing something is true) is in itself the trusting that saves. But this is exactly the thinking that has led the church into trusting in the 'faith' that James says can not save, but which the Protestant church will argue with you vigorously can save...in direct contradiction to James.
Jethro, there are literally hundreds of verses in the NT that have the word pistos or pisteuo in them. To demonstrate that faith precedes regeneration, should not the word "regeneration" or "born again" be in the verse? That is painfully obvious to me. Your not doing that.
Answer the question then. How do you trust in something you do not know is true? And if you do know it's true, now did you find out it was true if not by the Spirit of faith?
And once again, you do not bother to address the question. The word "believe" is in the passage, that's obvious. Where is the concept of regeneration?
I really don't know why you're asking this. Obviously we both agree that people who believe are regenerated. That's not what is in question. What you have to do is show that people are regenerated
then believe. In defense of my argument, simply knowing that the gospel is true does not regenerate anybody. Placing your trust in what you know to be true is what washes away sin guilt and joins you to the Holy Spirit in salvation. But if you think that simply knowing does that, show me that in the Bible. I'll show you where it says it does not.
So far, you have not quoted even one verse with the word regeneration, or the concept of regeneration in it. This is not exegetical at all. You just quote verses with the word "faith" or "believe" in it and then assume your point of view.
Why doesn't the definition of faith the Bible itself gives have any bearing in this? Are to just ignore that?
To say it again, with out the word or concept of regeneration in a verse, you cannot prove your point of view. Please supply a verse that demonstrates your claim that regeneration is caused by faith.
You're really confusing me, because aren't you the one who's backing the 'regeneration' argument? And that simply being shown the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit causes one to be born again? If so, you are the one who has to provide the evidence that simply hearing the word of faith from the Holy Spirit makes a person born again. I showed you it does not.