What is Hell?

[bibleberean]

A gift must be received not rejected.

An Atheist can't receive the gift.

Common sense would tell most people that if you don't want a gift you won't receive it...

Who lacks wisdom?

Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

The gift of eternal life must be received.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[bibleberean]

According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."

Actually, this is a parable and the only one where Jesus uses proper names. He did this for a reason. This parable is very symbolic. One needs to understand who the Rich Man represents, why He chose the name Lazarus (it's meaning) and what exactly is the "Bosom of Abraham". This parable is more about the spiritual state of the Jews, their lack of faith and the chasm they created between Man and God than it is about the state of the dead.

I digress here. We have discussed this parable in the past. If I can find that thread, maybe I will bump it up for continued discussion.

I totally disagree. :D

 

[bibleberean]

26 Heaven and Hell
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

II. HELL

To have a correct view of the other world, and of "Hell," it is necessary that we have a Scriptural understanding of--

THE UNDERWORLD.

The Hebrew word "SHEOL" is found 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated 31 times, "HELL;" 31 times, "GRAVE;" 3 times, "THE PIT." The corresponding word in the Greek of the New Testament is "HADES." It is translated 10 times "HELL." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "The Unseen State," or the place to which the "Soul" and "Spirit" of the dead go between the death and the resurrection of the body.

The "bodies" of the dead go into the "Grave," the word for which in the Hebrew is "GEBER," and in the Greek "MNEMEION." Neither "Sheol" nor "Hades" denote the "Hell" of final punishment of the wicked.

That is called in the Hebrew of the Old Testament "TOPHET," and in the Greek of the New Testament "GEHENNA."

Neither do they denote "THE BOTTOMLESS PIT" (Re 20:1-3), that is "ABUSSOS," nor the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels" (2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6), that is "TARTARUS." Their general meaning is-- "THE UNDERWORLD."

The word "Sheol" means a "hollow subterranean place," therefore "Hades" must mean the same. It has "gates," for Jesus said that the "Gates of Hell" (Hades), should not prevail against the Church. Mt 16:18.

And Jesus after His return from "The Underworld," said-- "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the `KEYS' (of the Gates) of hell (Hades) and of death (the Grave)."

Re 1:18. To get these "Keys" Jesus had to descend into the "lower parts of the earth." Eph 4:9.

The Apostolic Creed says that Jesus descended into "Hell" (Hades). Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth,". Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43. And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades."

But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades."

But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven", where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10."

 

[Vic C.]

...I totally disagree. :D

I knew you would. :-D I'm sorry to have disrupted the topic at hand... carry on. :angel:

 

[bibleberean]

...I totally disagree. :D

I knew you would. :-D I'm sorry to have disrupted the topic at hand... carry on. :angel:

Thats okay... I think there may have been someone else who disagreed with me once. ;-)

It's rare but it happens. :

 

[Quath]

A gift must be received not rejected.

An Atheist can't receive the gift.

Common sense would tell most people that if you don't want a gift you won't receive it...

I see no reason why God would not let in someone that didn't believe in Him or Jesus. I am sure anyone that doubted before, will know that God is real upon death. Therefore, such a requirement seems silly because they will get to see God and not just trust some old book.

So God lets pedophiles, mass murderers, and rapists into heaven because thy believe in a concept. Yet someone that dies and learns the concept is not worthy. It just seems kind of silly to me.

Heaven and Hell

If you never read the NT and just read the OT, you would not have the concept of hell. So hell is a NT concept. You can try to backfill the story, but Jewish people do not see a hell like Christians do.

There are no strings attatched. The Farther is simply saying you can enter heaven if you belive that Jesus died for all sins. Its amazing that we are granted eternal life for beliving in the lord, this is a gift that no-one else can give.

That is a string. It is something denied to a Muslim or someone that never heard of Jesus. So Africans that never met a missionary are spending an eternity in hell. Do you think a loving God would do that?

You cant argue with the truth, you cant proove wrong the truth. You have some great wisdom but your using it in the wrong way. From speaking to you it sounds like you activley seek answers and study to try and proove people wrong, but how many people in this world can truthly put there hand on heart and proove the bible wrong?

There is a quote I like a lot. It goes

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901 – 1971)

We will both use the same logic to show how wrong the Vedas are or the Quran. But when it turns to your book, all that logic is ignored. A quick example to illustrate my point:

According to the Bible, the Earth does not move
1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

So I would say this is a good example of the Bible being wrong. If this had been in the Quran, we would say it was a book with bad science. However, some people do not want this to a mistake. So they will try very hard to reinterpret this. They may say it is fixed in an orbit. However, this is saying that it is immovable on a moving path. It is a pure contradiction.

So who is seeking the truth more? The person that will try to justify such statements as somehow being true or the person that plainly sees these statements as false?

This is not an argument for atheism. It is an argument against literally interpreting the Bible as truth. The Bible could be based on some truths without the whole thing being true.

Quath

 

[JamesLovesGod]

This ones simple.

As in the eyes of science, the world needs to moove for gravity ect to take effect. Your persumtions on the scriptures are missleading. Heres the explenation

According to the Bible, the Earth does not move
1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

For all the times that you've ever looked down, were you ever once surprised to see your feet dangling over an abyss because the earth 'unfixed' itself and 'moved' itself out from under your feet?Have you ever known the earth to 'unfix' itself and 'move' itself out of its orbit around the sun?The earth has always been 'fixed' and 'immovable,' both in relation to us and in relation to its orbit around the sun.In fact we've learned to take it for granted that the shine will shine during the day and that there will ground for us to stand on when we awake in the morning.Having said that, one should at least consider the possibility that the verses cited above are actually using a figure of speech, to express the permanence of God's will and the permanence of His creation.

 

[bibleberean]

The whole bible is truth. Atheism creates a cloud around the foolish...

No matter what evidence is presented an Atheist will not see it...

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Salvation and the cross is foolishness to an atheist just like all unsaved people...

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

And again...

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[JamesLovesGod]

So who is seeking the truth more? The person that will try to justify such statements as somehow being true or the person that plainly sees these statements as false?

This is not an argument for atheism. It is an argument against literally interpreting the Bible as truth. The Bible could be based on some truths without the whole thing being true.

Christians are seeking more truth then any athiest would. An atheiest seeks persumed faults or contradictions. You cant uncover any new 'PERSUMED' contradiction or Faults, the devil has made these known, and such people have written books on it. Any Christian knows that the bible is the book of truth, it may be old but so is your grandparents and do they hold wisdom?.

Your stobbern hardend heart is refusing anything good, and belive me childof god, you will suffer at the end. The way i used to see it when i first became a christian is if the religion is false at least ive lived a happy life and the people around me have been treated with more respect as they would have if i was an athiest, so in the long run i benifit, that was when i doubted, i now know the word is true.

Im not going to label you an Atheist because somewere down the line i can see god working his wonders in you. Open your heart to the truth, allow the seed of life to grow inside you.

I will make a prayer for you.

 

[bibleberean]

This ones simple.

As in the eyes of science, the world needs to moove for gravity ect to take effect. Your persumtions on the scriptures are missleading. Heres the explenation

According to the Bible, the Earth does not move
1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

For all the times that you've ever looked down, were you ever once surprised to see your feet dangling over an abyss because the earth 'unfixed' itself and 'moved' itself out from under your feet?Have you ever known the earth to 'unfix' itself and 'move' itself out of its orbit around the sun?The earth has always been 'fixed' and 'immovable,' both in relation to us and in relation to its orbit around the sun.In fact we've learned to take it for granted that the shine will shine during the day and that there will ground for us to stand on when we awake in the morning.Having said that, one should at least consider the possibility that the verses cited above are actually using a figure of speech, to express the permanence of God's will and the permanence of His creation.

I guarantee you it isn't simple for an atheist. They are not looking for answers.

Although your answer was correct... I can see it... :D

 

[Quath]

For all the times that you've ever looked down, were you ever once surprised to see your feet dangling over an abyss because the earth 'unfixed' itself and 'moved' itself out from under your feet?Have you ever known the earth to 'unfix' itself and 'move' itself out of its orbit around the sun?The earth has always been 'fixed' and 'immovable,' both in relation to us and in relation to its orbit around the sun.In fact we've learned to take it for granted that the shine will shine during the day and that there will ground for us to stand on when we awake in the morning.Having said that, one should at least consider the possibility that the verses cited above are actually using a figure of speech, to express the permanence of God's will and the permanence of His creation.

You are saying we are fixed to the Earth. This is not the same as saying the Earth is fixed. Back then, they believed the Earth did not move. Even when telescoped showed that the Earth moved, people doubted it because common sense says we should feel the motion of movement.

When God wants the day to last longer so Joshua can kill with better visibility, God stops the Sun. However, we know that to lenghten the day, God would have to stop the world from rotating.

So do you see what you did? You tried to redefine "immovable" to say it is us that is immovable relative to the Earth. Not that the Earth is immovable as the Bible clearly states. You are so determined to make the Bible true that you will go to extreme measures to make it true.

If you ever debate a Muslim or Hindu, you will see them do the exact same thing. And you will wonder how they can be so blinded and illogical. But when it comes to your beliefs, all such ways of thinking go out the window.

Christians are seeking more truth then any athiest would. An atheiest seeks persumed faults or contradictions. You cant uncover any new 'PERSUMED' contradiction or Faults, the devil has made these known, and such people have written books on it. Any Christian knows that the bible is the book of truth, it may be old but so is your grandparents and do they hold wisdom?

I became an atheist from lack of proof, not any concept of a contradiction. If the Bible had no contradictions, I would still be an atheist because I need proof that God exists.

Oldness is not a sign of wisdom. After all, my grandfather thought that negros were all pickpockets. My grandmother thought that the Sun went around the Earth. If age were a sign of wisdom, then the Vedas, which is older than the Bible, would have to be even more wise.

Your stobbern hardend heart is refusing anything good, and belive me childof god, you will suffer at the end. The way i used to see it when i first became a christian is if the religion is false at least ive lived a happy life and the people around me have been treated with more respect as they would have if i was an athiest, so in the long run i benifit, that was when i doubted, i now know the word is true.

That is Pascal's wager. But that is a bad wager. For one, what if the Mormons are right? Or if the Muslims or the Jehovah Witnesses or the Gnostics Christians are right? If they are right, you still lose.

When you join a religion, you have a great chance to increase misery also. American Indians were killed because priests said that God wanted them dead. Joshua killed children for God. Hitler killed Jews for God. Blacks were castrated and lynched for God. Slavery was justified by God's word. Religion can spread great misery to the people around it.

I use to think that religion was a harmless institution that just wasted people's time and resources. However, when I really looked at history, I saw that religion was the cause or the mechanism for much of the world's ills. The only times I see religion as helpful is when the dogma is stripped away and the religion operates on philosophies like "turn the other cheek" and "help the poor." I don't see it when people come out with rules like "condoms are bad" or "God hates fags."

Im not going to label you an Atheist because somewere down the line i can see god working his wonders in you. Open your heart to the truth, allow the seed of life to grow inside you.

Well, that would be like me saying you are not a Christian because there is no God. "Atheist" is a self defined label showing what I believe or disbelieve. It doesn't have to reflect the truth of the universe.

I will make a prayer for you.

I appreciate the sentiment.

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

Back to the topic. Do see how disruptive atheists are?

Their main interest is in proving the bible false. It doesn't matter what the topic... :D

26 Heaven and Hell
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

"There are those who claim that "Sheol" (Hades) and the "Grave" are identical, and as there is no "knowledge" in the grave (Ec 9:5,10), therefore the soul "sleeps" until the resurrection of the body. But as it is only the "body" that goes into the "grave," it is only the "body" that "sleeps" or has no knowledge.

The "Soul" and "Spirit" of a man goes to "Sheol," not to the "Grave." In Ge 37:35 we read-- "And all his (Jacob's) sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, `For I will go down into the GRAVE unto my son mourning.'"

The Revised Version substitutes for "Grave" the word "SHEOL," and the American Revision has in the margin-- "Sheol, abode of the dead," and the American Baptist Publication Society edition, "The Underworld." So we see that Jacob did not mean that he would go "unto my son" in the "GRAVE," for he did not believe that his son Joseph was in the "grave," but that he had been eaten by a "wild beast" (Ge 37:33).

What Jacob meant was that he would "go down" into SHEOL, "The Underworld," and there he would meet Joseph, for it would be no comfort to go to a place (the grave) where he would know no one.

In Ge 25:8 we read-- "Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years, and was `GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE.'" The expression "Gathered to his people" has no reference to the "Grave" or "Family Burial Place," for that was over in Chaldea, but it means that Abraham went to "The Underworld" where the souls of his ancestors had gone, and where he would be reunited to them. The same statement is made of Isaac (Ge 35:29) with the additional statement, "and his sons BURIED HIM," thus showing that while his "soul" was "gathered to his people" in "The Underworld," his "body" was buried in the "grave."

Well one thing is certain as I said in an earlier post. Hell is not a place we want to go... :D

 

[SputnikBoy]

Thanks for the info. I dont mean to come along as a hypocrite. God has works for everyone , even you quath, its never to late to belive. I will include you in my prayers and if you need any support im always here.

Sputnik: This post speaks volumes about your heart condition, James. Would that certain others on this forum shared such warmth. Thanks.

 

[JamesLovesGod]

JamesLovesGod wrote:
Thanks for the info. I dont mean to come along as a hypocrite. God has works for everyone , even you quath, its never to late to belive. I will include you in my prayers and if you need any support im always here.


Sputnik: This post speaks volumes about your heart condition, James. Would that certain others on this forum shared such warmth. Thanks.

I dont understand what you mean, sorry.

 

[SputnikBoy]

JamesLovesGod wrote:
Thanks for the info. I dont mean to come along as a hypocrite. God has works for everyone , even you quath, its never to late to belive. I will include you in my prayers and if you need any support im always here.


Sputnik: This post speaks volumes about your heart condition, James. Would that certain others on this forum shared such warmth. Thanks.

I dont understand what you mean, sorry.

Sputnik: Sorry if I came across a little cryptic. I felt that your post was very warm and kind, the hallmarks of a sincere Christian. It was certainly a compliment from me. Thanks again.

 

[Pelagia]

Hell is eternal seperation from God, by our own free will. satan is the perfect example.

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[BibleJunky]

That is kind of you. If God reveals Himself to me one day, I will be a believer. Until then, I remain skeptical.


Quath

If you're such a NON-BELIEVER, why are you here?

why not do us all a favor and show yourself to the door? cause obvoiusly, you and us have nothing in common. :smt091

Idiot fool.


-BibleJunky :smt092

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Fire is for purefication. Those who are thrown into the lake of fired are purified but I don't think it's forever though.

This is something that I'm yet to get right into...but I just find it interesting that fire is used for purification and not punishment. Will have to look into that.

Is the hellfire idea eternal?

 

[Scott]

This is something that I'm yet to get right into...but I just find it interesting that fire is used for purification and not punishment. Will have to look into that.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I just want to let you know that UR is a banned topic on these forums. This (Apologetics) forum has an announcement explaining why.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I hate to rain on your parade, but I just want to let you know that UR is a banned topic on these forums. This (Apologetics) forum has an announcement explaining why.

Huh? what are you talking about? What's UR? Was your post addressed to me?

I was wondering what the relationship between purification and the lake of fire is. I haven't gotten into the hell subject before so was just throwing some ideas out there.