What is Mormonism?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Sorry for being so long winded on this subject but I have gone through a lot with them. And I only want Christians to be aware of not only what they believe, but it is critical that they know that the mormon missionaries will intentionally lie to get you to convert.

I think you've done that, to the point of overkill. When the subject of Mormons/LDS comes up in Christian circles, there is always someone such as yourself who can detail the discrepancies between Christianity and the LDS. I think it unlikely that there are any Christians who care who don't know those details.

I am more concerned about the prejudice against Mormons strictly because they are Mormons. Lost in the rhetoric is the fact that they are as good a people as anyone can be based on what they do. Cristine Hutchinson-Jones, a Harvard administrator, wrote her doctoral thesis on "Reviling and Revering the Mormons: Defining American Values, 1890-2008", the years chosen because it marks the year the LDS abandoned polygamy until the first time Romney ran for president. Among other points she made in a recent interview was this:

http://www.bu.edu/today/2012/afraid-of-mormons/

"I would argue that Americans aren’t separating all religion from all politics. We’re just not comfortable with groups that don’t fit into a generally moderate, Protestant mold. I’ve got a colleague who did his PhD on images of conservative Christians as villains in Hollywood cinema. You can almost certainly tell in any crime drama that if somebody quotes the Bible, you’re later going to find out that they’re a psychopathic killer.

"And we’re nervous about groups who openly say the church should be involved in our politics, whatever that church might be for that group. And Mormons wear their religion on their sleeve. The average Mormon spends something like 20 hours per week in activities at their local congregation. It’s really the core and center of their community, and they are absolutely open that their religion informs their social and political values. And Americans don’t like that."
​

I think it's time we stop demonizing Mormons and embrace them as a vital part of the general American community. Certainly they are a mission field for the mainstream Christian to embrace. If we elect one president, which I fervently hope we do at this juncture, we will have improved the prospects of our nation economically, securely and socially. We couldn't ask more from a good ole' Southern Baptist -- and the last one of those darn near ruined this country. Being a Southern Baptist, I can say that.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I think it's time we stop demonizing Mormons and embrace them as a vital part of the general American community. Certainly they are a mission field for the mainstream Christian to embrace. If we elect one president, which I fervently hope we do at this juncture, we will have improved the prospects of our nation economically, securely and socially. We couldn't ask more from a good ole' Southern Baptist -- and the last one of those darn near ruined this country. Being a Southern Baptist, I can say that.

I wish I'd posted that.

 

[jonjon1]

I think you've done that, to the point of overkill. When the subject of Mormons/LDS comes up in Christian circles, there is always someone such as yourself who can detail the discrepancies between Christianity and the LDS. I think it unlikely that there are any Christians who care who don't know those details.

I am more concerned about the prejudice against Mormons strictly because they are Mormons.

The truth of the matter is that Christians are still led away from Chrisitianity because they do not expect people who claim to represent God, to intentionally lie to them. If Christians knew this, then I would have nothing to say on this subject. How can someone claim prejudice when they are the one's who are lying?

And I think it is good to have people who can detail the differences so that others aren't misled. I am more than happy to do that and I want to learn from others on this site to do it better. If people were not prepared, then even more would be led astray.

BTW, don't you think this is kind of peculiar? Joseph Smith makes a Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. He adds various "scriptures" to the Bible that were supposedly revealed to him by God. And he conveniently finds "scriptures" that are about himself.

JST Genesis 50:33 (Don't bother looking in your Bibles for this one. It's not there)

33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.

Don't you find it strange that Joseph Smith finds prophecies about Joseph Smith? No other manuscript evidence has ever confirmed this. And God did not preserve this either. Doesn't something seem fishy to you?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The truth of the matter is that Christians are still led away from Chrisitianity because they do not expect people who claim to represent God, to intentionally lie to them. If Christians knew this, then I would have nothing to say on this subject. How can someone claim prejudice when they are the one's who are lying?

To this I can only quote part of the second verse of the Casting Crowns song, "Jesus, Friend of Sinners":

Nobody knows what we're for only what we're against when we judge the wounded
What if we put down our signs, crossed over the lines and loved like You did?
​

As I said, most all Christians who care are aware of the differences. Warnings need to be put aside and love enacted. Can we do that?

 

[jonjon1]

To this I can only quote part of the second verse of the Casting Crowns song, "Jesus, Friend of Sinners":

​

Nobody knows what we're for only what we're against when we judge the wounded
​

What if we put down our signs, crossed over the lines and loved like You did?​

As I said, most all Christians who care are aware of the differences. Warnings need to be put aside and love enacted. Can we do that?

No, not if they are going to lie. Honestly, I am suprised that someone who claims to be a southern baptist would be more upset with me proving that Mormons are lying than that Mormons are actually lying. There is a lot at stake here and we must defend our fellow Christians. You might be right that most all Chrisitians who care are aware of the differences. But what about those that don't care? Are we supposed to allow Mormons lie to them and thereby leading them astray? Of course not!!! We can't allow that. And accusing me of villinizing, I don't need to villinize. Joseph Smith did that to himself. Did you know that:

1. Joseph Smith claimed that African Americans are black because they are supposedly descended from Cain, who killed his brother?

"And . . . they were amixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for theseed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22)."And: ". . . there was a blackness came upon all the children ofCanaan, that they were despised among all people . . . (Moses 7:8)."

Joseph Smith believed, as many did back then, that the curse of Cain was preserved because Ham, the son of Noah, married a black woman.
Joseph Smith said regarding the presence of people during a sermonthat was preached by one of his followers “wherein were presentspecimens of all the families of the earth; Shem, Ham and Japheth; …quite a respectable number of negro descendants of Ham ..."(History of the Church, 1:190)

2. Joseph Smith claimed that Native Americans have a dark skin because they sinned and to make them ugly to white people.

II Nephi 5:21 "And hehad caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing,because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their heartsagainst him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, asthey were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that theymight not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin ofblackness to come upon them."

3. Joseph Smith married other men's wives and little girls.

Joseph Smith promised the father of Helen Mar Kimball (14yo)"exaltation" (highest form of heaven in mormonism) for hiswhole family if his daughter were to marry him. With the pressure ofher whole family's afterlife on her shoulders, she agreed to marrythe 37yo. So he took her! He took that little girl who out of thegoodness of her heart was thinking that she was helping her family.

Joseph Smith married two 14 year olds in one year. He was 37 at the time.


To suggest that we as Christians should be quiet and allow Mormons to lie to fellow Christians is beyond my imagination. I do not know how you would suggest that that would be better than educating and warning them. To suggest silence is UNIMAGINABLE!

 

[Mike]

Jonjon, he has a point I agree with. I will say that I disagree that most Christians are aware of the stark differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity. I would say there is wide-spread disinterest and ignorance regarding their doctrine within the Church. We've had Bible study classes on the topic at our church, and I was shocked at how many people didn't know what distinguishes Mormonism.

That said, jonjon, IMHO, you are taking the wrong approach in calling out Mormons one-by-one. I believe most of these people have bought into the lies perpetuated by Smith's false testimony. Some don't believe what their own church teaches, some don't know what their own church teaches, and some might be trying to make them smaller issues rather than defining doctrines.

I would say Mormons for the most part are extremely upright citizens. They apply themselves to the conduct promoted by their church and set solid examples of clean living for the world. Would that Christians set such an example in being a Light to the world. I believe they do it for the wrong reasons. Mormonism is a works-based religion. They go on mission trips because they must do it. They avoid caffeine because they must do it. But the thing is, the world sees them living out their faith in a way most Christians don't. People notice that.

As with the RCC, my problem is with the institution rather than the members. I see the lie as a grand scheme stemming down from their hierarchy. If I tried to share the True Gospel with someone, and they aggressively said I was lying, I wouldn't spend another moment with them. I'd move on to the next person in full confidence that I was sharing the Truth. I wouldn't take your approach, because I'd expect them to do the same.

People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Relationship comes before change.

 

[jonjon1]

Okay Mike. I see your point. Being that there are so many Christians on this forum, I wanted to focus on them the most. And I wanted them to be aware of the lying that is taking place. I am involved in a ministry to the Philippines and I know first hand how blatant they are lying and how effective it is. And even if there are many Christians that do not know about the differences, we should protect them anyway and hopefully, someone on this forum will be more educated by what we have shared. It is my conviction that Christians must be warned.

As far as witnessing to Mormons, I think the video on youtue "The top ten mormon problems explained" would be most helpful.

Thanks

 

[Lewis]

Hmmmm
[video=youtube;4ac_fLUHiBw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw[/video]

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

No, not if they are going to lie. Honestly, I am suprised that someone who claims to be a southern baptist would be more upset with me proving that Mormons are lying than that Mormons are actually lying. There is a lot at stake here and we must defend our fellow Christians. You might be right that most all Chrisitians who care are aware of the differences. But what about those that don't care? Are we supposed to allow Mormons lie to them and thereby leading them astray? Of course not!!! We can't allow that. And accusing me of villinizing, I don't need to villinize. Joseph Smith did that to himself. Did you know that:

I know all the things you noted, Jonjon. However, I'm not going to get them to listen to truth by challenging them to their face, which (as Mike pointed out) will be useless as a witnessing tool, doing more to build a wall than it will a bridge.

You make a great to-do about being lied to by Mormon missionaries. I'm not so sure they lie so much as they may not know the real truth themselves, of what is behind the doctrine of their church. Even if they knowingly lie, is that any more than countless millions of people do every day in the course of work, school, politics, etc.? Being upset about them lying is well and good, but attacking them is not better a behavior for a Christian. One is no better than the other.

 

[jonjon1]

I know all the things you noted, Jonjon. However, I'm not going to get them to listen to truth by challenging them to their face, which (as Mike pointed out) will be useless as a witnessing tool, doing more to build a wall than it will a bridge.

You make a great to-do about being lied to by Mormon missionaries. I'm not so sure they lie so much as they may not know the real truth themselves, of what is behind the doctrine of their church. Even if they knowingly lie, is that any more than countless millions of people do every day in the course of work, school, politics, etc.? Being upset about them lying is well and good, but attacking them is not better a behavior for a Christian. One is no better than the other.

That's it Lewis. Thank you for posting that! I wish everyone would watch that.

thisnumbersdisconnected, my goal was not to get them to listen. My goal was to help Christians understand that they are being lied to and that a multitude of Christians have left the church because of that. There are many Christians that know the differences but are blindsided when they are told directly that they (mormons) do not believe the things that they do. I gave an example of Gordon Hinckley and the "Lying for the Lord" source as well. The most hateful thing I could do is to keep quiet about it. If Christians are aware that this tactic is being used, they will not fall.

 

[Mike]

Okay Mike. I see your point. Being that there are so many Christians on this forum, I wanted to focus on them the most. And I wanted them to be aware of the lying that is taking place. I am involved in a ministry to the Philippines and I know first hand how blatant they are lying and how effective it is. And even if there are many Christians that do not know about the differences, we should protect them anyway and hopefully, someone on this forum will be more educated by what we have shared. It is my conviction that Christians must be warned.

As far as witnessing to Mormons, I think the video on youtue "The top ten mormon problems explained" would be most helpful.

Thanks

Jonjon, you might have missed one of the points I made, because I was responding to you in referring to something thisnumbersdisconnected said. I further complicated my point by saying I agreed with him overall and then saying what I disagreed with.

To both you and thisnumbersdisconnected, I believe firmly that there is widespread ignorance of Mormonism within the Christian Church, and believers of The Way need to be aware of the major differences that make Christianity and Mormonism incompatible.

Mormons say they believe in the Trinity, but when you peal away the onion, you find that what they hold to is far different than the Christian understanding that God manifests Himself in 3 persons in 1 God. When probed further, they will argue that they are not One God.

Mormons say they believe 100% of the Bible, but they will interpret scripture to fit in Joseph Smith's box. They will argue the first few words in John:1 where it says "In the beginning..." and claim that this only means Jesus was created by God before the earth was made. The "beginning" to them was the creation of the earth, and I believe this is so that their doctrine that God ascended to be the god of this planet will fit. Verse 3 says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." To the Mormon, this means the physical earth; not all of Creation. They don't believe our God is eternally God.

You don't know things like this unless you probe. My main point here was that these discussions need to be had within the Church, because far too many people take for granted that "The Church of Jesus Christ" and Latter Day Saints are just another form of Christianity. I'd say they are more like "Smithianity".

But to TND's point, we cannot make them defensive by these accusations. I believe we have got to see them as people who need see where Joseph Smith broke away from Truth in establishing his own gospel. There are Mormons who intentionally lie, no doubt, but we cannot head into every conversation we have with them with the premise that they are outright liars. I'd say most are sincere; deceived, but sincere.

 

[Lewis]

Jonjon, you might have missed one of the points I made, because I was responding to you in referring to something thisnumbersdisconnected said. I further complicated my point by saying I agreed with him overall and then saying what I disagreed with.

To both you and thisnumbersdisconnected, I believe firmly that there is widespread ignorance of Mormonism within the Christian Church, and believers of The Way need to be aware of the major differences that make Christianity and Mormonism incompatible.

Mormons say they believe in the Trinity, but when you peal away the onion, you find that what they hold to is far different than the Christian understanding that God manifests Himself in 3 persons in 1 God. When probed further, they will argue that they are not One God.

Mormons say they believe 100% of the Bible, but they will interpret scripture to fit in Joseph Smith's box. They will argue the first few words in John:1 where it says "In the beginning..." and claim that this only means Jesus was created by God before the earth was made. The "beginning" to them was the creation of the earth, and I believe this is so that their doctrine that God ascended to be the god of this planet will fit. Verse 3 says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." To the Mormon, this means the physical earth; not all of Creation. They don't believe our God is eternally God.

You don't know things like this unless you probe. My main point here was that these discussions need to be had within the Church, because far too many people take for granted that "The Church of Jesus Christ" and Latter Day Saints are just another form of Christianity. I'd say they are more like "Smithianity".

But to TND's point, we cannot make them defensive by these accusations. I believe we have got to see them as people who need see where Joseph Smith broke away from Truth in establishing his own gospel. There are Mormons who intentionally lie, no doubt, but we cannot head into every conversation we have with them with the premise that they are outright liars. I'd say most are sincere; deceived, but sincere.

Great answer Mike, and you made it plain and simple.:yes

 

[jonjon1]

In my one on one witnessing, I have never called them a liar. I let them commit the lie first. I think it opens the door for them later when they have been confronted with the truth to recall what they did. I tell them, "Remember when we first talked, you told me..." I believe it helps them to come to grips with both the inaccuracies of their faith and the morality of the methods they use. Truth is, I know that the lying is rampant within the Mormon church. It is more than a few. I have a convition that mainstream Christianity needs to know that this is being done. As you can see with the late Gordon Hinckley, it starts from the top on down. I have seen it in the USA and the Philippines and on the internet. They will always attempt to make you believe that they believe the same thing you do.

Richard Packham had a nice article called Mormon Lying. But that had to do with the leaders.

 

[stovebolts]

That quote speaks of God the Father. Here is a more of the quote so you can see:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the vail was rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit; and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible-I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instructions from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.


It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and will take away the vail, so that you may see. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did."

Hope that helps.

I see. Basically they twist trinity theology. What catches my eye is two fold. First where they he says that God was first a man before he was God. Sounds like $cientology... err, maybe that's where LRH got his idea?.. The second is, "dwelt on an earth". The word an being the operative. again, this is much like $cientology.

BTW, I think people are still having a hard time believing that Mormons missionaries would intentionally lie. And I can't believe I forgot to mention this. But as you know that the first president in the Mormon church (the prophet) is believed to be God's representative on earth. He is supposedly called by God to lead the church. Before Thomas Monson, it was Gordon Hinkley. This is what Hinkley said regarding that doctrine:

Do a search on: "home hinckley god once man" You will see that Hinckley himself lied about this. And go ahead and read the Mormon response. They claim that he was taken out of context. You can search: "Does President Gordon B. Hinckley Understand LDS Doctrine" Their defense just does not hold water.

BTW, Stove, what is it that you believe?

I'll do a search on hinckley, thanks.

BTW, Stove, what is it that you believe?

I assume you are speaking on the origins and nature of God? I can tell you that it is NOT in line with the Mormon church.

 

[stovebolts]

That's it Lewis. Thank you for posting that! I wish everyone would watch that.

thisnumbersdisconnected, my goal was not to get them to listen. My goal was to help Christians understand that they are being lied to and that a multitude of Christians have left the church because of that. There are many Christians that know the differences but are blindsided when they are told directly that they (mormons) do not believe the things that they do. I gave an example of Gordon Hinckley and the "Lying for the Lord" source as well. The most hateful thing I could do is to keep quiet about it. If Christians are aware that this tactic is being used, they will not fall.

I see the difference. You are not addressing the Mormons, you are addressing Christians about the Mormons.

If we Christians know what the Mormons believe, then we also must know that they don't know they are lying. Once can believe they are telling the "truth" and yet not know that it is a lie.

I am thinking of Apollos where he just didn't know the full story.

 

[stovebolts]

Mormons say they believe in the Trinity, but when you peal away the onion, you find that what they hold to is far different than the Christian understanding that God manifests Himself in 3 persons in 1 God. When probed further, they will argue that they are not One God.

Exactly, which is what prompted me to my initial post. Without the second paragraph, I didn't have a problem with what ole Joseph had to say because it fit into mainstream Christianity as most would understand the trinity. As you said, it's not until one starts peeling away the onion that he exposes himself.

Here is a bit of human nature. When you invest a lot of time into any institution, you become a part of that institution. You start to see the good and the bad, but as you said earlier Mike, we humans will choose relationships before anything else. When we have relationships within an institution, we will focus more on those relationships than we will on upholding doctrines. If you look at how active the Mormons are as a community, they do a lot of stuff together and that builds relationships.

I think you hit it on the head when you said that a few may not believe in the doctrines but stay in the church anyway and there are a huge number of people who are in the church that don't even know of the doctrines from the church they attend. But if they've got a lot invested into the church they are more apt to brush away those doctrines to maintain the relationships... and perhaps this is why shunning is so effective.

 

[stovebolts]

In my one on one witnessing, I have never called them a liar. I let them commit the lie first. I think it opens the door for them later when they have been confronted with the truth to recall what they did. I tell them, "Remember when we first talked, you told me..." I believe it helps them to come to grips with both the inaccuracies of their faith and the morality of the methods they use. Truth is, I know that the lying is rampant within the Mormon church. It is more than a few. I have a convition that mainstream Christianity needs to know that this is being done. As you can see with the late Gordon Hinckley, it starts from the top on down. I have seen it in the USA and the Philippines and on the internet. They will always attempt to make you believe that they believe the same thing you do.

Richard Packham had a nice article called Mormon Lying. But that had to do with the leaders.

Are they lying, or are they telling what they know as truth?

In the movie Broken Arrow, known $cientologist John Travolta takes a line right out of $cientolgy 88 which states, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Which is how $cientolgoy justifies a flat out lie knowing that they are telling a lie.

So, for clarity, Are they blatantly lying, or are they telling what they know as truth?

Thanks.

 

[jonjon1]

Are they lying, or are they telling what they know as truth?

In the movie Broken Arrow, known $cientologist John Travolta takes a line right out of $cientolgy 88 which states, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Which is how $cientolgoy justifies a flat out lie knowing that they are telling a lie.

So, for clarity, Are they blatantly lying, or are they telling what they know as truth?

Thanks.

They are outright lying. They do believe that God was once a man and they eventually admit it. I'm actually glad you brought this up. There is a video on the internet somewhere called "The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith" as told by Bill McKeever. It is 25:54 long. If you can find it, fast forward to 11:30 - 14:30. You hear a testamony from him about the same thing happening with a number of people.

I was still hoping to find out what you believe about God. And what you believe about the doctrine of the Trinity etc.

Thanks.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Jon,
I'll keep that video in mind. I've got a limited time on the internet so hopefully sometime soon I'll be able to go check it out.

I feel a little disoriented today so maybe you could clean this up a little for me.

You say the flat out lie knowing that they lie. What are they lying about again? I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page.

As far as what I believe, I'll start of by saying that I don't think anyone needs to embrace any form of trinitarian doctrine to be saved, let alone call themselves a Christian. As far as I'm concerned, one can utterly reject the whole idea of the trinity and still be saved.

I believe that God is and always had been. Scripture says that God is Spirit and that God is love, so I believe in the Spirit of love. This brings up a question: what does love look like? John 3:16 comes to mind as does 1 Cor 13. Love is about serving others and having the others best interest in mind. I believe this to be the very nature of God.

I believe that Jesus is the very word of God, and when God created the world, he created it though his word Jesus Christ.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the very spirit of God and was as active in the old covenant as is within the new covenant we are currently under.

How's that for a taste?

 

[jonjon1]

Hi Jon,


I feel a little disoriented today so maybe you could clean this up a little for me.

You say the flat out lie knowing that they lie. What are they lying about again? I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page.

Thanks for your reply Steve. Maybe it's because I am so involved in something that I forget to explain from the beginning. I apologize for that.

Here are a few examples:

The first one was what I spoke of and that was the doctrine that God the Father was once a man. Some have said that Mormons just don't know about it. But I have found that they do. Not only do they admit it but they defend it. (please see my first post #8)

Next, I provided the example of Gordin Hinckley as lying. And even the Fair (a highly respected Mormon source amoung Mormons) response.

And then the video info before.

Also, I am involved in a ministry to the Philippines. The Filipino people do not like polygamy. If they knew that Joseph Smith had multiple wives, they would reject him as a prophet. Three children, all brothers, have parents that are in the beginning stages of Mormonism. I sent them a letter about what Mormons believe and also that Joseph Smith had many wives and I gave some details. The Mormon missionaries just said that it was not true and that it was something "anti-mormons" made up. They knew he did but they are taking advantage of their poor situation.

I also mentioned about doing a search for "lying for the Lord"

Finally, I want you to know that I am actually doing something most here would find controversial. That's because I know that there might be a very short window of opportunity to educate the world and protect Christians that are apathetic about Mormonism. I go on political forums and tell everyone about the racial things that Mormon "scriptures" teach. I have been able to educate a lot of people. I get many thanks from some people and a lot of anger from the Mormons on that chat. So if I say on that chat:

"Mitt Romney is a Mormon and Mormonism teaches that African Americans are black because they allegedly descended from Cain, who killed his brother. So God cursed him with a black skin to punish him." Their response is ALWAYS something like this, "No we don't. Learn your facts first". That response is a lie. It happens every time.

Now if I say:

Mitt Romney believes racist“scriptures†(mormon scriptures)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:

HE BELIEVES AFRICANAMERICANS ARE BLACK BECAUSE THEY WERE CURSED BY GOD. It's called the"Curse of Cain" Notice what their scriptures say: "And. . . they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was theseed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not placeamong them (Moses 7:22)." And: ". . . there was a blacknesscame upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised amongall people . . . (Moses 7:8)." This is their "scriptures". It is what they hold as a source of authority. It is what Romneybelieves RIGHT NOW and he is being really quiet because he does notwant the public to know. The fact is, the mormon church believesthat African Americans are black because they are descendents ofCain, who killed his brother and then God put a mark on him. It isthe mormon church that teaches that this mark is a black skin. Thereare other places where mormon "scriptures" speak of Godpunishing white people with a dark colored skin. II Nephi 5:21 "Andhe had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sorecursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardenedtheir hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint;wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome,that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did causea skin of blackness to come upon them." This was a two-foldpurpose. First, it was to punish them for their sins. And second,it was to make them ugly to white people. There are MANY MANY MOREracist "scriptures" in the Book of Mormon and other places. It wasn't until June 1978 that theMormon church allowed African Americans into the priesthood when theyallegedly received a "revelation" from God that the ban hadfinally been lifted.

Then they can't deny it. You see Steve, they know it's true, but they will lie to cover it up. But when I say something like the above statement, then I get the anger and name calling. But they have a terrible time trying to deny it because it is supported.