RevSRE
Member
There seems to be The Beautiful, simple story in the NT, that only includes the very basic details to make a point, the most important point. Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became a descendant of Adam so that He could ultimately go to the Cross and die in our place.
Then there is or should be a more complete story based on common sense and the cultural requirements of the time.
The details are there and not hard to see and understand. However, I want to start by saying, "the more complete details DO NOT CHANGE THE STORY". They are only of interest in a more complete discussion of the times and life. BUT they do offer a better understanding of why things happened as they did.
I would LOVE to know some of YOUR views on the Christmas story, What should we remember, and what can be left out?
How did the Angels, Joseph, Mary The Baby JESUS, animals Shepards Wisemen all get into one simple scene;
We shorten the story for a 15-minute children's play OR Hallmark wants to get it all on one Card. That is not the story.
Here are some examples just to get discussion started. Remember the important point is ONLY The VERY SON OF GOD, Became the seed of EVE, A MAN to take my place and Pay a Debt I could not PAY.
1 Did the Angles SING? It seems not! They SPOKE. λεγόντων
a. λεγό , λεγόντων means to speak to declare?
b. Ψαλλετω or ᾄδω Ado 1. to the praise of anyone, to sing
What was Joseph’s occupation, τέκτονος means craftsman?
one who works as a builder: carpenter, stonemason.
any craftsman (but generally not a metalworker, smith)
Israel was looking for a KING of the Line of DAVID, Joseph and Mary were that Line and the rightful heir to DAVID’S Throne. When they traveled to Bethlehem for a census of the people, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN KNOWN! Their Child WAS also a future KING! They would not have traveled ALONE, the family Both Joseph and Mary’ were of the line of David they ALL would have to go to Bethlehem for the censes. No Mother would allow a daughter to make that trip alone when she, the mother, had to make the trip Also. This GROUP OF THE ROYAL FAMILY OF ISRAEL would have gone to the home of Family. Joseph his mother and father, MARY and her mother and father, siblings on both sides, other Family no mentioned, servants to handle tents, food, and animals – ( this trip would take a week to 12 days) this was normal travel for these people in this time.
Mary was not just a young Jewish girl of Israel obedient to the words of an angel. Mary was in the Royal Line of the throne of Israel. Joseph was not just a carpenter that was true to the Old Testament teachings and a man of God. We can see from the list of names that Joseph was in the line of David and the legitimate Heir to be KING OF ISRAEL. It is important to see that there were only two people in time and history that could have been in the place of Joseph and Mary. These views secure the true Davidic descent of Mary, which is indeed absolutely necessary to the fulfillment of that most explicit divine promise (2Sa_7:12,) “I will set up thy seed after thee which shall proceed out of thy bowels.
Did Joseph and Mary try to get a room in an INN.
The Bible makes no mention of any innkeeper who told them that the inn was full for the night. The reason we imagine this scenario is because the translators of most English versions have chosen the word "inn, or guest chamber" to translate the Greek word καταλυμα (kataluma), which gives modern readers the wrong impression.1
The word καταλυμα as used here means the ending of a trip. Translators IMPLY this ending of a trip would be to stay in an INN or guest room, It does not SAY that.
This means there was no NORMAL lodging in the House where they stayed, A private “Bed Room” where Mary had more privacy, but, they stayed in a common room. Use of καταλυμα as a guest Chamber goes back to John Wycliffe’ first translation of the Bible to English. The Logical place to Stay at the END OF A TRIP is a guest chamber.
Joseph and Mary probably stayed with Joseph's relatives in Bethlehem, but because of the large influx of people, the house would have been crowded, and at the kataluma “end of traveling” the House was full. Consequently, Joseph and Mary would have been relegated to living in the lower level of the house. This means there was no NORMAL lodging in the House where they stayed, A private “Bed Room” where Mary had more privacy, but, they stayed in a common room according to their AGE and place in the family, ALL this family was the royal line of David. At this time in history this Common room would have also been a part of the family living quarters with a stable for small animals, Lambs, may have stayed for extra attention as needed, so a manger there was not uncommon. It is hard to believe that pregnant Mary would have been turned away from a relative's home in a society that greatly valued familial ties. More likely a stall in the stable was made ready for the BIRTH and Mary had the other women to Midwife the Child in some privacy.
BUT, Jesus was born in a STABLE, the stable part of a FAMILY HOME.
Archaeologists have excavated first century homes from the Judean hill country. They have discovered that the upper level served as a guest chamber while the lower level served as the living and dining rooms. Oftentimes, the more vulnerable animals would be brought in at night to protect them from the cold and theft.
Of course, we should never become so focused on the peripheral details of this account that we miss the most important point. Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became a descendant of Adam so that He could ultimately go to the Cross and die in our place. Now the descendants of Adam can be saved from an eternity of separation from their Creator. God gave His Son to this world, which is the greatest gift that could ever be given. Let us celebrate this truth and tell the world about God's amazing love.
How many Magi were there? There came wise men from the east.
The word rendered "wise men" is more correctly "Magi," a term which designates an order of priests and philosophers which belonged originally to Persia and who were extensively distributed over the region of the Euphrates. Those described in the book of Daniel as wise men, astrologers, and magicians, belonged to this order. IT DOES NOT SAY HOW MANY! Only that there were THREE GIFTS.
Herod had several reasons to fear the Magi and the repercussions of any action he might take against them. His visitors were high-level Parthian priests and very influential members of one of Parthia's two assemblies who elected the empire's monarchs.
Parthia as an empire rivaled that of Rome's at the time of Christ, They were the decedents of Persia and Babylon.
The Magi, who were willing to traverse 1,000+ miles from their home, entered Jerusalem with a large entourage that included servants, cooks, and so on worthy of those of high rank, It would take 4 months to make the trip. They also came with an armed escort of perhaps a few hundred Parthian soldiers, not only to protect their safety but also to guard the precious gifts they carried.
The Magi and the large group that came with them was so large that when they first entered Jerusalem both the city and Herod were greatly alarmed (Matthew 2:3)!
We could remember that these “Wise Men” are from a class of Magi that studied history and the mystery of the Stars. Such knew of three Hebrew men cast into a furnace 7 times hotter than normal only the meet the Jesus, the Magi would visit on this Day. They knew of a Daniel cast into the Lion’s Den only to be rejoicing in the Morning. THEY KNEW OF A Persian King that declared all would revere the GOD OF DANIEL. It is not Strange that such Men would travel so far to see this KING.
Where is he that is born King of the Jews? Their question shows two things:
1. That they partook of the general expectation that about this time there would appear in the East a Ruler divinely appointed to his mission. The works of profane writers of this period show that this expectation was general.
2. It is plain that the wise men misapprehended the mission of Christ, and expected him to be a secular king. This is important because most others did also, they did not see Jesus’ Kingdom in the Hearts of His People, but as a ruler like other nations.
We have seen his star in the east. It is GOD that hangs the stars in space =, One more is no problem for HIM. This language implies a miraculous appearance, like a star, which guided the steps of the wise men.
Such a view is no less probable than that a pillar of fire should have guided Israel in the wilderness.
Then there is or should be a more complete story based on common sense and the cultural requirements of the time.
The details are there and not hard to see and understand. However, I want to start by saying, "the more complete details DO NOT CHANGE THE STORY". They are only of interest in a more complete discussion of the times and life. BUT they do offer a better understanding of why things happened as they did.
I would LOVE to know some of YOUR views on the Christmas story, What should we remember, and what can be left out?
How did the Angels, Joseph, Mary The Baby JESUS, animals Shepards Wisemen all get into one simple scene;
We shorten the story for a 15-minute children's play OR Hallmark wants to get it all on one Card. That is not the story.
Here are some examples just to get discussion started. Remember the important point is ONLY The VERY SON OF GOD, Became the seed of EVE, A MAN to take my place and Pay a Debt I could not PAY.
1 Did the Angles SING? It seems not! They SPOKE. λεγόντων
a. λεγό , λεγόντων means to speak to declare?
b. Ψαλλετω or ᾄδω Ado 1. to the praise of anyone, to sing
What was Joseph’s occupation, τέκτονος means craftsman?
one who works as a builder: carpenter, stonemason.
any craftsman (but generally not a metalworker, smith)
Israel was looking for a KING of the Line of DAVID, Joseph and Mary were that Line and the rightful heir to DAVID’S Throne. When they traveled to Bethlehem for a census of the people, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN KNOWN! Their Child WAS also a future KING! They would not have traveled ALONE, the family Both Joseph and Mary’ were of the line of David they ALL would have to go to Bethlehem for the censes. No Mother would allow a daughter to make that trip alone when she, the mother, had to make the trip Also. This GROUP OF THE ROYAL FAMILY OF ISRAEL would have gone to the home of Family. Joseph his mother and father, MARY and her mother and father, siblings on both sides, other Family no mentioned, servants to handle tents, food, and animals – ( this trip would take a week to 12 days) this was normal travel for these people in this time.
Mary was not just a young Jewish girl of Israel obedient to the words of an angel. Mary was in the Royal Line of the throne of Israel. Joseph was not just a carpenter that was true to the Old Testament teachings and a man of God. We can see from the list of names that Joseph was in the line of David and the legitimate Heir to be KING OF ISRAEL. It is important to see that there were only two people in time and history that could have been in the place of Joseph and Mary. These views secure the true Davidic descent of Mary, which is indeed absolutely necessary to the fulfillment of that most explicit divine promise (2Sa_7:12,) “I will set up thy seed after thee which shall proceed out of thy bowels.
Did Joseph and Mary try to get a room in an INN.
The Bible makes no mention of any innkeeper who told them that the inn was full for the night. The reason we imagine this scenario is because the translators of most English versions have chosen the word "inn, or guest chamber" to translate the Greek word καταλυμα (kataluma), which gives modern readers the wrong impression.1
The word καταλυμα as used here means the ending of a trip. Translators IMPLY this ending of a trip would be to stay in an INN or guest room, It does not SAY that.
This means there was no NORMAL lodging in the House where they stayed, A private “Bed Room” where Mary had more privacy, but, they stayed in a common room. Use of καταλυμα as a guest Chamber goes back to John Wycliffe’ first translation of the Bible to English. The Logical place to Stay at the END OF A TRIP is a guest chamber.
- This is also the “abode of a family οἰκίαν oikian” where the Magi came the see the Child. And when they came to the
houseFamily, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, - This word okian is like CHURCH, it refers to the PEOPLE, but it can be used of the house where they live, a building.
Joseph and Mary probably stayed with Joseph's relatives in Bethlehem, but because of the large influx of people, the house would have been crowded, and at the kataluma “end of traveling” the House was full. Consequently, Joseph and Mary would have been relegated to living in the lower level of the house. This means there was no NORMAL lodging in the House where they stayed, A private “Bed Room” where Mary had more privacy, but, they stayed in a common room according to their AGE and place in the family, ALL this family was the royal line of David. At this time in history this Common room would have also been a part of the family living quarters with a stable for small animals, Lambs, may have stayed for extra attention as needed, so a manger there was not uncommon. It is hard to believe that pregnant Mary would have been turned away from a relative's home in a society that greatly valued familial ties. More likely a stall in the stable was made ready for the BIRTH and Mary had the other women to Midwife the Child in some privacy.
BUT, Jesus was born in a STABLE, the stable part of a FAMILY HOME.
Archaeologists have excavated first century homes from the Judean hill country. They have discovered that the upper level served as a guest chamber while the lower level served as the living and dining rooms. Oftentimes, the more vulnerable animals would be brought in at night to protect them from the cold and theft.
Of course, we should never become so focused on the peripheral details of this account that we miss the most important point. Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became a descendant of Adam so that He could ultimately go to the Cross and die in our place. Now the descendants of Adam can be saved from an eternity of separation from their Creator. God gave His Son to this world, which is the greatest gift that could ever be given. Let us celebrate this truth and tell the world about God's amazing love.
How many Magi were there? There came wise men from the east.
The word rendered "wise men" is more correctly "Magi," a term which designates an order of priests and philosophers which belonged originally to Persia and who were extensively distributed over the region of the Euphrates. Those described in the book of Daniel as wise men, astrologers, and magicians, belonged to this order. IT DOES NOT SAY HOW MANY! Only that there were THREE GIFTS.
Herod had several reasons to fear the Magi and the repercussions of any action he might take against them. His visitors were high-level Parthian priests and very influential members of one of Parthia's two assemblies who elected the empire's monarchs.
Parthia as an empire rivaled that of Rome's at the time of Christ, They were the decedents of Persia and Babylon.
The Magi, who were willing to traverse 1,000+ miles from their home, entered Jerusalem with a large entourage that included servants, cooks, and so on worthy of those of high rank, It would take 4 months to make the trip. They also came with an armed escort of perhaps a few hundred Parthian soldiers, not only to protect their safety but also to guard the precious gifts they carried.
The Magi and the large group that came with them was so large that when they first entered Jerusalem both the city and Herod were greatly alarmed (Matthew 2:3)!
We could remember that these “Wise Men” are from a class of Magi that studied history and the mystery of the Stars. Such knew of three Hebrew men cast into a furnace 7 times hotter than normal only the meet the Jesus, the Magi would visit on this Day. They knew of a Daniel cast into the Lion’s Den only to be rejoicing in the Morning. THEY KNEW OF A Persian King that declared all would revere the GOD OF DANIEL. It is not Strange that such Men would travel so far to see this KING.
Where is he that is born King of the Jews? Their question shows two things:
1. That they partook of the general expectation that about this time there would appear in the East a Ruler divinely appointed to his mission. The works of profane writers of this period show that this expectation was general.
2. It is plain that the wise men misapprehended the mission of Christ, and expected him to be a secular king. This is important because most others did also, they did not see Jesus’ Kingdom in the Hearts of His People, but as a ruler like other nations.
We have seen his star in the east. It is GOD that hangs the stars in space =, One more is no problem for HIM. This language implies a miraculous appearance, like a star, which guided the steps of the wise men.
Such a view is no less probable than that a pillar of fire should have guided Israel in the wilderness.
