What is the individual's role in challenging the status quo directly with an authority figure?

[FishieFishue]

A bit of context​

As a young adult who enjoys discourse and challenging the opinions of others, I frequently run into the problem of people hating me or my peers for challenging their opinions (primarily what they consider the proper course of things. Ie: the usage of their authority).

I'm not asking if it is acceptable to challenge their authority, merely the way they use it.

To reiterate my question in a more specific manner,​

According to the bible, how much authority does the individual have in going to an authority figure to suggest a different method of the usage of their power, to call out a flaw in their teaching, or to call out an action as wrong, and how should one go about doing so?

Examples​

1: Calling out an authority figure when they make a claim or command and expect you to agree (again, I'm not asking whether or not these things are in their power) merely because they have authority.

2: If something they taught is in direct opposition to the scripture.

3: If something seems to be in opposition to the scripture and asking for clarification, and/or using the Socratic method to come to a conclusion.

4: Requesting a better boundary to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be rules set for children (Ie: no video games).

5: Requesting a better method to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be how the authority figure uses their tone or words, or how they utilize their authority.

Research​

I'm not sure where to begin to find an answer for my question. I can think of a few verses that may help, but nothing that directly gives an answer.

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. This seems unclear to me, but I can't tell whether letting no one despise your youth is active in the sense that I should call them out or if the setting an example is the answer to how to let no one despise your youth.

Proverbs 9:7 “He who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself, And he who rebukes a wicked man only harms himself. 8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. This merely states that if a man hates you for correcting him, he's a scoffer and a wicked man.

Beyond this, I don't have anything besides certain passages like Titus 2 that state what an authority figure's conduct should be like.

clarification of terms​

Authority figure: I'm talking specifically about a religious leader, someone the bible states as having authority over another outside of governmental status. This includes Parents, Elders, Pastors, Mentors, and the like.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
FishieFishue, I can feel the frustration in your writing. How I interact with those who disagree with me directly affects the outcome. If I get in their face, call them out in public, I am setting up an antagonistic relationship. Its

 

[Free]

A bit of context​

As a young adult who enjoys discourse and challenging the opinions of others, I frequently run into the problem of people hating me or my peers for challenging their opinions (primarily what they consider the proper course of things. Ie: the usage of their authority).

I'm not asking if it is acceptable to challenge their authority, merely the way they use it.

To reiterate my question in a more specific manner,​

According to the bible, how much authority does the individual have in going to an authority figure to suggest a different method of the usage of their power, to call out a flaw in their teaching, or to call out an action as wrong, and how should one go about doing so?

Examples​

1: Calling out an authority figure when they make a claim or command and expect you to agree (again, I'm not asking whether or not these things are in their power) merely because they have authority.

2: If something they taught is in direct opposition to the scripture.

3: If something seems to be in opposition to the scripture and asking for clarification, and/or using the Socratic method to come to a conclusion.

4: Requesting a better boundary to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be rules set for children (Ie: no video games).

5: Requesting a better method to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be how the authority figure uses their tone or words, or how they utilize their authority.

It all depends on the manner of how you and your peers are doing this and precisely what it is that is being addressed. The verses below address both sides.

Research​

I'm not sure where to begin to find an answer for my question. I can think of a few verses that may help, but nothing that directly gives an answer.

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. This seems unclear to me, but I can't tell whether letting no one despise your youth is active in the sense that I should call them out or if the setting an example is the answer to how to let no one despise your youth.

To add some context:

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, (ESV)

Given the context, then, we cannot extend 4:12 in a general sense to those who are younger. Timothy must have been somewhat young but put in a position of authority by Paul. Paul is telling him not to let anyone call his authority into question just because he was likely younger than most in such a position.

Proverbs 9:7 “He who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself, And he who rebukes a wicked man only harms himself. 8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. This merely states that if a man hates you for correcting him, he's a scoffer and a wicked man.

Beyond this, I don't have anything besides certain passages like Titus 2 that state what an authority figure's conduct should be like.

1Th 2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.
1Th 2:11 For you know how, like a father with his children,
1Th 2:12 we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

1Ti 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers,
1Ti 5:2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity.
...
1Ti 5:19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
1Ti 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
...
2Ti 2:22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—
Tit 1:6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
Tit 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

1Pe 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

Of course, it is a two-way street:

1Th 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
1Th 5:13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,

(All ESV.)

There are also many other verses about the conduct of all Christians in general. Youth are to always show respect towards those who are older and all are to show respect to those whom God has placed in spiritual authority over them. There is conduct specific to overseers (elders) but there is also general conduct which applies to everyone.

 

[WIP]

A bit of context​

As a young adult who enjoys discourse and challenging the opinions of others, I frequently run into the problem of people hating me or my peers for challenging their opinions (primarily what they consider the proper course of things. Ie: the usage of their authority).

I'm not asking if it is acceptable to challenge their authority, merely the way they use it.

To reiterate my question in a more specific manner,​

According to the bible, how much authority does the individual have in going to an authority figure to suggest a different method of the usage of their power, to call out a flaw in their teaching, or to call out an action as wrong, and how should one go about doing so?

Examples​

1: Calling out an authority figure when they make a claim or command and expect you to agree (again, I'm not asking whether or not these things are in their power) merely because they have authority.

2: If something they taught is in direct opposition to the scripture.

3: If something seems to be in opposition to the scripture and asking for clarification, and/or using the Socratic method to come to a conclusion.

4: Requesting a better boundary to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be rules set for children (Ie: no video games).

5: Requesting a better method to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be how the authority figure uses their tone or words, or how they utilize their authority.

Research​

I'm not sure where to begin to find an answer for my question. I can think of a few verses that may help, but nothing that directly gives an answer.

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. This seems unclear to me, but I can't tell whether letting no one despise your youth is active in the sense that I should call them out or if the setting an example is the answer to how to let no one despise your youth.

Proverbs 9:7 “He who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself, And he who rebukes a wicked man only harms himself. 8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. This merely states that if a man hates you for correcting him, he's a scoffer and a wicked man.

Beyond this, I don't have anything besides certain passages like Titus 2 that state what an authority figure's conduct should be like.

clarification of terms​

Authority figure: I'm talking specifically about a religious leader, someone the bible states as having authority over another outside of governmental status. This includes Parents, Elders, Pastors, Mentors, and the like.

Your delivery is critical. If you come across as arrogant and pushy, you'll not get a very good reaction. If you come across as humble and with a willingness to listen, you'll get a much better response.

When I was a senior in high school nearly 50 years ago, one of the most boring classes I had was civics. I don't know if this is taught in schools anymore with the new cancel culture today, but it was a very dry class. The teacher was not a very interesting or exciting person to listen to either. He always seemed to be kind of a dry person with little personality and I suspect that he too was a little bored - that is until one day....

Too often in middle or high school, students don't engage very much in class. I had the same experience when I was leading our middle and high school Sunday School classes at our church. It was like pulling teeth to get the students to participate in discussion.

On one particular day in our Civics class the teacher was dictating his lesson as usual and my best friend and I decided it was time to spice things up a bit. My best friend got things started when he raised his hand and said, "I disagree!" To which the teacher asked him to clarify. When he was done, I jumped in with another point of view and this got the debate going. The teacher's face lit up like school boy and we had more fun in that class the rest of that year. The more we did this the more other students got involved as well. It was a blast!

The most important thing we learned was to present our positions with respect and civility and not get emotional. It's a discussion to share and listen to points of view and not to force our views on others.

Peter gave instructions about this in 1 Peter 3:15 (NKJV) where he wrote, "Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." With meekness and fear not arrogance, pride, or accusation. That's an important consideration when sharing one's point of view.

 

[miamited]

I frequently run into the problem of people hating me or my peers for challenging their opinions

Hi FishieFishue

What makes you believe that they hate you or your peers?

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again FishieFishue

(primarily what they consider the proper course of things. Ie: the usage of their authority).

how much authority does the individual have in going to an authority figure to suggest a different method of the usage of their power, to call out a flaw in their teaching, or to call out an action as wrong, and how should one go about doing so?

Honestly, you come across as a young person who is still having issues with those in authority. You also seem to infer that these people should always listen to you and make whatever changes you're suggesting. Life really doesn't work that way.

I know for myself that I often see things being done and think, there's a better way to do that. But then I find out that there's usually a reason that things are done as they are. Some report has to be filed or some process has to be done in a certain manner with certain steps.

Looking into your examples...

Calling out an authority figure when they make a claim or command and expect you to agree (again, I'm not asking whether or not these things are in their power) merely because they have authority.

You mean like when your professor tells you that the earth is basically a round globe, but you know that it's actually flat and so you don't agree with him/her? How do you handle that?

If something they taught is in direct opposition to the scripture.

Are they a teacher of the Scriptures? Or is this just some class in earth sciences that you're taking in college? You're going to find, out there in the world, there's a lot of stuff that is taught that is in contradiction to the Scriptures. That's why Jesus asked us to spread the gospel. Not everyone believes that there is a God. That any God exists. But don't put the cart before the horse. Too many 'christians' think that God put us here to set the world right. They obviously haven't taken in the whole counsel of the Scriptures. The world is never going to get set right, according to God's will and desires, until at least the reign of His Son. Until then we live in the world that Paul describes for us in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans.

If something seems to be in opposition to the scripture and asking for clarification, and/or using the Socratic method to come to a conclusion.

Requesting a better boundary to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be rules set for children (Ie: no video games).

Requesting a better method to be employed that may not be contrary to scripture but have a better alternative. This can be how the authority figure uses their tone or words, or how they utilize their authority.

So, taking these examples and going back to your underlying question:

According to the bible, how much authority does the individual have in going to an authority figure to suggest a different method of the usage of their power, to call out a flaw in their teaching, or to call out an action as wrong, and how should one go about doing so?

You are generally free to go to the authority figure of whatever group you're working with and suggest better methodology. But that doesn't mean that the authority figure is bound to take your advice. Now, there are, of course some limitations to that process. We can't individually get an audience with the Pres. of a nation to voice our concerns to them face-to-face. You won't always be able to walk into the CEO's office of some large corporation and tell them how you think they should run their business. You should be able to discuss such issues with your immediate supervisor, but again, no one is beholden to take your advice or suggestions no matter how reasonable they may sound to you. They might give you their reasons for refusing your 'suggestions', but aren't necessarily required to.

Perhaps it would be best to understand what the term 'authority' means in a conversation between people. The one who is in 'authority', ultimately, gets to do what they think is best to do, despite your protestations to the contrary.

As far as 'how' to go about doing so, I think Free has written what the Scriptures tell us about our conversations with and among others. You speak humbly and you accept whatever the final decision is, even though it may not be how 'you' would do things if you owned the company, pastored the congregation, or whatever else the situation might be.

Hope that helps.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
FishieFishue, I can feel the frustration in your writing. How I interact with those who disagree with me directly affects the outcome. If I get in their face, call them out in public, I am setting up an antagonistic relationship. Its

Let's see if I can finish this before I hit the post button. Free has given some excellent answers. I would like to add this:

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

The same can generally be said for a soft question. How the questions are asked directly affects the answers. Also, because you are young, that alone will bias an answer from a senior citizen. Their attitude could be, "Ah, what do you know, you're just a kid." So be careful how you "call someone out." That said, let's work through your concerns.

1. You know you don't have to agree with something. Nobody likes taxes. But we pay them. Don't agree quietly. Just say no or no thanks and leave it at that. If and when they ask why, share your reasons/ concerns.

2. This is obviously a major concern. (An extreme example --Jesus is really the archangel Michael. Obviously not true but a real false teaching.) Ask your questions. If the answers don't make sense, and they won't if they are in direct opposition, take your concerns to the elders. They should be able to correct the situation. If they don't leave that church. It is corrupted.

3. Any person who teaches Scripture should be able to clarify what they taught. Be fair and be kind. But ask your questions.

4. I don't know what you mean by "a better boundary." So I will reserve comment.

5. How a person speaks directly affects the attitude of the listener. I am not sure other than that what you are looking for.

Remember, you always have the authority. You allow a pastor authority because that is Scriptural. But if that person is abusing that authority, you do not have to blindly accept it.

Free gave you the Scriptures. So I will not relist them here. I hope there is help for you somewhere in there. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FishieFishue and welcome to CF

There are fourteen definitions of the word authority found in the Strong's Concordance as follows:
Greek definition: (exousia, ex-oo-see'-ah) freedom, influence, delegate, jurisdiction, ability, control, force, privilege, strength, liberty, mastery, competency, power and right

This list is to long to go into greater detail, but if you take each word and look it up in scripture you will learn the power and authority one has through Christ Jesus. If what you hear comes against scripture then question it as there are many false teachings contrary to scripture and nothing wrong with questioning another. It's always best if you have a problem to sit down with that person and discuss the problems you have with them as sometimes our judgements of others can be wrong and we just might learn something new.

Our subjection is unto the power and authority of God, not man.

Everything we say and everything we do has to come by Gods Spirit working in us and through us by His power and authority given His own by God's grace for the edifying and lifting up of Gods people to bring us all into one body that is Christ centered. You are young yet and you need to learn how to Spiritually discern, 1John 4:1-6, what is being taught to you and how you teach others so you will always be pleasing to the father and hear the words of Jesus,“ well done thou good and faithful servant”. When one comes with a negative attitude then they are not opened to hear what others say to them, especially when you want to see the negative instead of the positive. We were all young at one time thinking we knew it all, but ended up humbling ourself to the Lord allowing the Holy Spirit teach us. John 14:26.​

 

[FishieFishue]

Hey All,
FishieFishue, I can feel the frustration in your writing. How I interact with those who disagree with me directly affects the outcome. If I get in their face, call them out in public, I am setting up an antagonistic relationship. Its

This seems unfinished sir.
I'm confused as to where you're finding the frustration in my writing, I depersonalized it on purpose so that it's not just my individual circumstances at question.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Openly challenging authority is rarely well received. That's not to say that occasionally believers can't lose their composure a little, but outright publicly challenging spiritual authority is generally a sign of a lack of proper submission, not just to men but to God. I once recall a sister at a church my wife used to attend standing up in the middle of a service and "calling out" the pastor right in front of his congregation. I never found out what exactly was said, but it was disrespectful, and you should have seen the pandemonium, Lol. Someone had recorded it on their cell phone and the whole church was walking around praying and all upset. Disrupted the entire night. That's NOT how situations need to be handled, IMO, especially with this man. He was a good man, and should not have had his entire service disrupted and his entire congregation thrown into an uproar simply because one member had a doctrinal grievance with him.

I can't think of a single pastor or teacher who I have not had disagreements with, but I have always had the decency to respect them when I was entering into churches they pastored to attend their services. They should be given the respect due as those who shall give account, until such time as God Himself should raise someone else up, and orderly, not because someone had no better respect for the things of God than to throw a whole congregation into disarray. It's why Peter was teaching aspiring leaders to submit to the elders of their church, and patiently wait until God should raise them up.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
You are correct FishieFishue. I Hit the "post reply" button as I was doing a screen correction. Hence the incomplete post. I did finish my thoughts in the second post.

You said you frequently run into the problem of people hating you or your peers. That sounded like frustration to me. If I was wrong I apologize. How would you describe your feelings concerning this?

You also said it is not just you. So it is you, and others (your peers), So you are describing what you experienced, alongside the others. That is how I read your post. Again, sorry if I got it wrong.

I read through the posts from people trying to help you. Did you find anything in them that is useful?
Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[FishieFishue]

It all depends on the manner of how you and your peers are doing this and precisely what it is that is being addressed. The verses below address both sides.


To add some context:

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, (ESV)

Given the context, then, we cannot extend 4:12 in a general sense to those who are younger. Timothy must have been somewhat young but put in a position of authority by Paul. Paul is telling him not to let anyone call his authority into question just because he was likely younger than most in such a position.


1Th 2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.
1Th 2:11 For you know how, like a father with his children,
1Th 2:12 we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

1Ti 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers,
1Ti 5:2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity.
...
1Ti 5:19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
1Ti 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
...
2Ti 2:22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—
Tit 1:6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
Tit 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

1Pe 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

Of course, it is a two-way street:

1Th 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
1Th 5:13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,

(All ESV.)

There are also many other verses about the conduct of all Christians in general. Youth are to always show respect towards those who are older and all are to show respect to those whom God has placed in spiritual authority over them. There is conduct specific to overseers (elders) but there is also general conduct which applies to everyone.

Thanks for your response. I much appreciate the structure of it and how you've chosen to suppose nothing of my conduct or position and merely answering the question using direct scriptures so as to make it more obvious.

1Ti 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers,

I understand that we're not to challenge even a brother, much less a leader in public, but I don't know how to go about the calling out. Sometimes it's easy to just send a text, Ie my youth pastor recently, just letting him know that the repetition of theme bothered many of the youth that actually paid attention.

I also understand that we're to do so in all love and patience, but how do you go about it when they are arrogant about their position, not fully filling the requirements set in scripture for a leader and think that the mere fact that you disagree with them is disrespectful, manipulative, and dangerous (quoting verbatim).

I'm more than willing to be shown the correct way to do things. I am well aware of the dangers of breaking Chesterton's fence, hence I prefer to present my suggestions (this isn't necessarily talking about challenging them in something I believe they're sinning in, although that may be included in certain contexts of this portion) as discourse, I go with a question, and do what Socrates did, asking questions that get them to see my side by the mere answers to the questions added together. And if I'm proven wrong, I'm happy to drop it, I'm not arrogant in the sense that my beliefs are obstinate.

Thank you for your well thought out response,
-Fish-

 

[FishieFishue]

Your delivery is critical. If you come across as arrogant and pushy, you'll not get a very good reaction. If you come across as humble and with a willingness to listen, you'll get a much better response.

When I was a senior in high school nearly 50 years ago, one of the most boring classes I had was civics. I don't know if this is taught in schools anymore with the new cancel culture today, but it was a very dry class. The teacher was not a very interesting or exciting person to listen to either. He always seemed to be kind of a dry person with little personality and I suspect that he too was a little bored - that is until one day....

Too often in middle or high school, students don't engage very much in class. I had the same experience when I was leading our middle and high school Sunday School classes at our church. It was like pulling teeth to get the students to participate in discussion.

On one particular day in our Civics class the teacher was dictating his lesson as usual and my best friend and I decided it was time to spice things up a bit. My best friend got things started when he raised his hand and said, "I disagree!" To which the teacher asked him to clarify. When he was done, I jumped in with another point of view and this got the debate going. The teacher's face lit up like school boy and we had more fun in that class the rest of that year. The more we did this the more other students got involved as well. It was a blast!

The most important thing we learned was to present our positions with respect and civility and not get emotional. It's a discussion to share and listen to points of view and not to force our views on others.

Peter gave instructions about this in 1 Peter 3:15 (NKJV) where he wrote, "Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." With meekness and fear not arrogance, pride, or accusation. That's an important consideration when sharing one's point of view.

Howdy WIP,

I don't have much in response to your message, besides what i've already said to Free, but i do want to say this: You seem like you'd be a fun teacher given the strength and engagement of your prose.

Have a great day sir,
-Fishie-

 

[FishieFishue]

Hi again FishieFishue

Honestly, you come across as a young person who is still having issues with those in authority. You also seem to infer that these people should always listen to you and make whatever changes you're suggesting. Life really doesn't work that way.

I know for myself that I often see things being done and think, there's a better way to do that. But then I find out that there's usually a reason that things are done as they are. Some report has to be filed or some process has to be done in a certain manner with certain steps.

Looking into your examples...

You mean like when your professor tells you that the earth is basically a round globe, but you know that it's actually flat and so you don't agree with him/her? How do you handle that?

Are they a teacher of the Scriptures? Or is this just some class in earth sciences that you're taking in college? You're going to find, out there in the world, there's a lot of stuff that is taught that is in contradiction to the Scriptures. That's why Jesus asked us to spread the gospel. Not everyone believes that there is a God. That any God exists. But don't put the cart before the horse. Too many 'christians' think that God put us here to set the world right. They obviously haven't taken in the whole counsel of the Scriptures. The world is never going to get set right, according to God's will and desires, until at least the reign of His Son. Until then we live in the world that Paul describes for us in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans.




So, taking these examples and going back to your underlying question:

You are generally free to go to the authority figure of whatever group you're working with and suggest better methodology. But that doesn't mean that the authority figure is bound to take your advice. Now, there are, of course some limitations to that process. We can't individually get an audience with the Pres. of a nation to voice our concerns to them face-to-face. You won't always be able to walk into the CEO's office of some large corporation and tell them how you think they should run their business. You should be able to discuss such issues with your immediate supervisor, but again, no one is beholden to take your advice or suggestions no matter how reasonable they may sound to you. They might give you their reasons for refusing your 'suggestions', but aren't necessarily required to.

Perhaps it would be best to understand what the term 'authority' means in a conversation between people. The one who is in 'authority', ultimately, gets to do what they think is best to do, despite your protestations to the contrary.

As far as 'how' to go about doing so, I think Free has written what the Scriptures tell us about our conversations with and among others. You speak humbly and you accept whatever the final decision is, even though it may not be how 'you' would do things if you owned the company, pastored the congregation, or whatever else the situation might be.

Hope that helps.

God bless,
Ted

Howdy Ted,

Honestly, you come across as a young person who is still having issues with those in authority. You also seem to infer that these people should always listen to you and make whatever changes you're suggesting. Life really doesn't work that way.

I'm curious as to where you find this issue, I do struggle with authority, but only when that authority doesn't meet the requirements placed on them by God. And this isn't just from what I've projected onto them, it's directly how they've treated me, others, and their families.

Now obviously I struggle with my delivery, but as someone who's been around many authority figures in his life, I've seen and worked with authority figures who both meet and fail to meet those requirements.

I know for myself that I often see things being done and think, there's a better way to do that. But then I find out that there's usually a reason that things are done as they are. Some report has to be filed or some process has to be done in a certain manner with certain steps.

Yes of course. I do not wish to break Chesterton's fence in any capacity. I work very diligently to understand the ins and outs of a situation before I so much as draw a conclusion, and even then, if they, by their wisdom are able to show me where i'm wrong, i'd much rather drop a contentious subject if I have no grounds than be obstinate.

As for the rest of your response, I don't see much of it that's applicable as it seems that you've misunderstood the clarification of terms I set at the end of my initial post.

Thanks,
-Fish-

 

[Hidden In Him]

Fishie, just a quick note here: If it's about a youth Pastor, I would politely approach the Pastor of the church about it. He would likely ask his Youth Pastor for a response, and then potentially set up a meeting with the three of you to hear both sides of the story, but under the circumstances you appear to be describing, just approaching the YP himself might not get you very far.

God bless,
- H

P.S. As per my previous post, approaching either one privately would be far preferred to "calling him out" publicly, either via text or online or during a service. That would only create resentments, IMO.

 

[FishieFishue]

Let's see if I can finish this before I hit the post button. Free has given some excellent answers. I would like to add this:

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

The same can generally be said for a soft question. How the questions are asked directly affects the answers. Also, because you are young, that alone will bias an answer from a senior citizen. Their attitude could be, "Ah, what do you know, you're just a kid." So be careful how you "call someone out." That said, let's work through your concerns.

1. You know you don't have to agree with something. Nobody likes taxes. But we pay them. Don't agree quietly. Just say no or no thanks and leave it at that. If and when they ask why, share your reasons/ concerns.

2. This is obviously a major concern. (An extreme example --Jesus is really the archangel Michael. Obviously not true but a real false teaching.) Ask your questions. If the answers don't make sense, and they won't if they are in direct opposition, take your concerns to the elders. They should be able to correct the situation. If they don't leave that church. It is corrupted.

3. Any person who teaches Scripture should be able to clarify what they taught. Be fair and be kind. But ask your questions.

4. I don't know what you mean by "a better boundary." So I will reserve comment.

5. How a person speaks directly affects the attitude of the listener. I am not sure other than that what you are looking for.

Remember, you always have the authority. You allow a pastor authority because that is Scriptural. But if that person is abusing that authority, you do not have to blindly accept it.

Free gave you the Scriptures. So I will not relist them here. I hope there is help for you somewhere in there. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Hey Taz,

Sorry, I didn't see this response when I had responded to your first message.

All of what you've said is good, but I'm still at a loss as to what to do when they're an authority that I can't, or won't abandon (A parent, a peer's parent, or a pastor who isn't all bad and we just clash heads on this topic).

1: This is the opinion I hold, but what if they expect me to blindly agree and if I don't, I'm considered manipulative and sneaky (although I think I'd be more taken aback if they blindly agreed).

3. And if they refuse to? If they have a "I'm the authority, this is my word" mindset.

4. This can be anything regarding two peers or a group of peers, particularly, but not solely, that of mixed genders.

Also, in response to your third message, I am frustrated, but I've chosen to not let that affect my mental faculties (albeit the fact that it's nearly impossible to do entirely). I was more asking how my delivery came across that way since I tried really hard to keep it depersonalized.

Thank you sir,

-Fishie-

 

[FishieFishue]

Openly challenging authority is rarely well received. That's not to say that occasionally believers can't lose their composure a little, but outright publicly challenging spiritual authority is generally a sign of a lack of proper submission, not just to men but to God. I once recall a sister at a church my wife used to attend standing up in the middle of a service and "calling out" the pastor right in front of his congregation. I never found out what exactly was said, but it was disrespectful, and you should have seen the pandemonium, Lol. Someone had recorded it on their cell phone and the whole church was walking around praying and all upset. Disrupted the entire night. That's NOT how situations need to be handled, IMO, especially with this man. He was a good man, and should not have had his entire service disrupted and his entire congregation thrown into an uproar simply because one member had a doctrinal grievance with him.

I can't think of a single pastor or teacher who I have not had disagreements with, but I have always had the decency to respect them when I was entering into churches they pastored to attend their services. They should be given the respect due as those who shall give account, until such time as God Himself should raise someone else up, and orderly, not because someone had no better respect for the things of God than to throw a whole congregation into disarray. It's why Peter was teaching aspiring leaders to submit to the elders of their church, and patiently wait until God should raise them up.

Hey,

I'll respond to this and your postscript here.

I agree that public calling out is a bad thing to do, not only shaming him, but shaming myself even more so if the opinion isn't unanimous.

As for the postscript, me going to my youth pastor went well. I was standing next to him when I texted him (it wasn't a setting where speech would have been beneficial, and if the matter were any more important I would have asked for a time where we could speak privately). I wasn't upset or thinking he was doing wrong, I actually enjoy his teachings, I was just letting him know what my peers were thinking.

Thank you for your responses sir,

-Fishie-

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hey,

I'll respond to this and your postscript here.

I agree that public calling out is a bad thing to do, not only shaming him, but shaming myself even more so if the opinion isn't unanimous.

As for the postscript, me going to my youth pastor went well. I was standing next to him when I texted him (it wasn't a setting where speech would have been beneficial. I wasn't upset or thinking he was doing wrong, I actually enjoy his teachings, I was just letting him know what my peers were thinking.

Thank you for your responses sir,

-Fishie-

Excellent.

I must also say, I find it quite impressive if you are coming to us for help when you are involved in a Youth Group. Your posts are quite eloquent as well.

How old are you, if I may ask?

 

[miamited]

I'm curious as to where you find this issue, I do struggle with authority, but only when that authority doesn't meet the requirements placed on them by God.

Hi FishieFishue

Well, let's do just a bit of fine tuning before we get into addressing what you've brought to the boards as an issue that you're having. When you're speaking of this matter of authority that you're struggling with, are we referring to authority in the fellowship of believers, or authority as in the police officer that pulls you over for speeding or the professor or teacher at your school or the boss at your work? I'm also curious how you find my response curious and then go right on and admit that you do struggle with authority. Why would you find it curious that I was able to discern that fact pretty quickly from your prosaic post?

Now obviously I struggle with my delivery, but as someone who's been around many authority figures in his life, I've seen and worked with authority figures who both meet and fail to meet those requirements.

And you think that qualifies you as what, exactly? We've all had experiences with various kinds of authority figures in our lives. In fact, you speak of someone who's been around many authority figures, and I would venture to say that most all of us are around someone in authority around us pretty much all the time. Most wives think they have authority over their husbands so us guys don't ever get to live without an authority figure over us.

So again, I'd say that's a curious claim to having been around many authority figures in your life. Especially if you're of working age. But I'd also like some clarification as whether you are referring to an authority figure among the fellowship of believers, or just authority figures in life in general?

if they, by their wisdom are able to show me where i'm wrong, i'd much rather drop a contentious subject if I have no grounds than be obstinate.

I'd say that at this point in the conversation that has yet to be established.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi FishieFishue

Please accept my apologies. I didn't get down to that last paragraph about the defining of terms.

I'm sorry.

Let me address your concerns then, from the perspective of this being a fellowship issue. Again, no one is beholden to take your advice, but they should at least listen for a time. Generally speaking, if you have an issue with authority figure in the fellowship, and you know that you are right, then you should handle it as the Scriptures encourage you to.

Go to the person in private and express your concerns.

If he refuses to listen, the go with a witness and again express your concerns.

It there is still not a resolution, then go to the leadership of the fellowship and make your concerns known to them.

If you are right and you know that you are right, and the issue is of real importance to the Spiritual life of the fellowship, then you should leave. Have nothing to do with that person. That's how the Scriptures say that believers should work out problematic issues within the fellowship.

Hope that helps.

God bless,
Ted