What is the status of the Word before He became flesh?

[amithe1]

Hello!

I would like to know what is the status of the Word before He became flesh. Was there a Father and Son relationship? What did the Father mean when He says that "today you have become my Son"?

Hebrew 1:5 - For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

Does this mean when the Word became Flesh, He became God's Son? The scripture above says, "today". So I was wondering, before the "today", was the Word not yet the Son of God? He was the Word who was with God and was God having the same attributes and glory and exact representation of God. So, when the Word became flesh, He was the only "begotten" Son of God.

Love to hear your insights here. Thanks! :D

 

[Imagican]

Complexities of this sort arise when one attempts to actually UNDERSTAND what is offered in the Title 'Word'. But, if one 'takes out the capital W', at this point we see that the word of God is simply the means by which God has communicated to mankind since their creation.

Christ openly and clearly stated that the words that He spoke were NOT His own but GIVEN Him by the Father. In this respect, Christ BECAME the 'word' of God.

When one completes an exclusive study of the BOOK of John, it becomes apparent that much that has been taught and accepted concerning the Word is simply 'created understanding' and really of no particular validity so far as the understanding OFFERED by John.

Try telling that to your average pastor or priest and he'll go into convulsions. But the truth is often LIKE THAT. Unable to be born by those that have 'created their OWN truth'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Paidion]

The writer of Hebrews is quoting from Psalm 2:7. The context of both does not indicate to what time the "now" refers.

I think it refers to the begetting of the Son before all ages, at the beginning of time, the first of God's acts. This begetting of the Son was referred to in many of the early Christian writers. Even the original Nicene Creed has "begotten before all ages". In the early Trinitarian controversies with Arianism, the phrase "begotten not created" was used. It has come through even to the Latin Xmas carol, "Adeste Fideles".

Then early catholics began to speak of an "eternal begetting", the idea that Jesus is always being begotten. But that didn't make much sense, so the whole idea of the Son having been begotten was pretty well dropped, and today this fact is virtually unknown. So it is taught that the Son never had a beginning and is co-eternal with the Father in "eternity past".

As I see it, there is no such thing as "eternity past". The first thing God ever did was to beget His Son, and so time began. There was never a time at which the Son did not exist, since there was no time before the Father begat Him. Indeed even that statement isn't strong enough. There was no before. To affirm that there was a "before" is tantamount to saying there was time before the beginning of time --- and that is a contradiction.

 

[Free]

As I see it, there is no such thing as "eternity past". The first thing God ever did was to beget His Son, and so time began. There was never a time at which the Son did not exist, since there was no time before the Father begat Him. Indeed even that statement isn't strong enough. There was no before. To affirm that there was a "before" is tantamount to saying there was time before the beginning of time --- and that is a contradiction.

While I understand your point, and to an extent you are correct, this would also mean that the Father didn't exist until time began.

However, we all know that prior to Creation and therefore prior to the space-time continuum, the Father existed. From Scripture we can also see that the Son has always existed since he beyond Creation.

The term "eternity" implies, by definition, something that is beyond time, something that has always been and always will be. So the phrase "eternity past" does make sense. The use of "before" also makes sense since it means that which which is prior to something else. If we can't use these terms, then we can't even discuss the Father.

 

[Imagican]

Paidion ,

Once again you prove yourself to be a wise and understanding individual.

We have NO reason to believe that Christ wasn't 'created' other than the teachings of the Catholic Church in regards to their insistence that Jesus IS God Himself. Yet all that Christ Himself offered is that He IS the Son of God and NOT God Himself. A 'part' of God without doubt, but NOT equal in that He stated that the Father, (who we know IS God), is greater than He.

The 'firstborn' of every creature and all the statements concerning Christ 'being made' offer MUCH indication that He WAS 'created'. But I can surely see that IF one were to choose to believe that Christ IS God, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to accept that He was 'created'.

Yet Christ offered that the words that He gave and the example that He offered were as given Him or as He observed OF the Father, (who IS God). Now, IF Christ were eternal so far as HISTORY is concerned, how is it even POSSIBLE that He could LEARN from the Father? For IF both are simply two parts of the same entity and eternal from the BEGINNING as well as the future, then HOW is it possible that they are not BOTH equal in knowledge?

So, the CC has taught since about three to four hundred years AFTER the death of Christ that He IS God. But that does not necessarily AGREE with what WE have been offered up in scripture. That the side believing in Christ AS God won out in the decision to accept this as such does NOT indicate 'truth' in the least. And that there are MANY that today continue in such belief offers no proof of it being truth either. For there have been and will be many that will choose to follow whatever it is that pleases themselves regardless of 'truth'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hello!

I would like to know what is the status of the Word before He became flesh....

The Son is the second person of the Trinity, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, One God, forever and ever:
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Son IS the Word, who has no end and no beginning