What is the Trinity?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

I understand, but in all honesty, your argument sounds "contrived" and artificial, designed simply to prove a point of view you wish to believe. I say this because it is all based on assumptions, that the angels were there from the beginning, involved in Creation

It is the only explanation that I find plausible and I also see the Angels active in the Garden in Genesis 2 and 3 even though this is not explicitly stated. We are also introduced to the Cherubim, but not much detail is divulged. God in his wisdom has left us to explore this theme throughout the Bible.

and that language was not "borrowed" from pagan cultures by the biblical authors

I certainly do not accept that the language and any of the ideas were derived from pagan cultures or traditions.

You are therefore assuming that "Elohim," being plural, and including the plural pronouns, must indicate angels are included. Again, the argument and the conclusion are largely built on assumptions, which is very hard for anybody to hang their beliefs on.

Yes in the context of Genesis 1:26-27 and also based upon Psalm 8:5. Each context is important and I find the exposition of the Yahweh Name very interesting and important, and also how this is used throughout the OT together with the various titles of God. I was the reader of our text at the meeting this morning, Isaiah 40, and as well as the word God (Elohim) occurring numerous times, there were many occurrences of LORD (Yahweh) and one occurrence of Lord GOD (Adonai Yahweh). A proper understanding of each of these give a better understanding of the chapter.

This is a good example of building a theology on the sketchiest of biblical words and statements, instead of trusting that the Holy Spirit will make the most important truths clear and repeated.

I certainly see the need to understand the most important truths. I do not anticipate direct Holy Spirit guidance as the means of attaining this, but by a quiet meditation and consideration of the Word.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again RandyK,

It is the only explanation that I find plausible and I also see the Angels active in the Garden in Genesis 2 and 3 even though this is not explicitly stated. We are also introduced to the Cherubim, but not much detail is divulged. God in his wisdom has left us to explore this theme throughout the Bible.

That's obviously true to some degree. Angels are there as "cherubim" in the Garden from the beginning, and we have no choice but to speculate on it. Angels are woven into the inner walls of the tabernacle, to some degree, and again--we are left to speculate.

But I think the idea is not to send us off on a wild joy ride, guessing about this or that like a pack of wild-eyed Gnostics! ;) Rather, we are invited to look at the whole package together. I just don't see anything that remotely suggests what you're saying, that angels participated in the Creation. They are *part of* the Creation, and as such, cannot participate with God as Creator. Or, do I have you wrong?

I certainly do not accept that the language and any of the ideas were derived from pagan cultures or traditions.

So, you think Elohim--plural, is the product of Divine revelation, and not pagan superstition? I think otherwise, because "Elohim" suggests a multiplicity of gods, which was at the time of the writing part of the world culture overall. Language would reflect what people were talking about and thinking at the time.

The idea of an "angelic language" means that God is in another universe, not connected to human experience. And this causes problems I think?

Yes in the context of Genesis 1:26-27 and also based upon Psalm 8:5. Each context is important and I find the exposition of the Yahweh Name very interesting and important, and also how this is used throughout the OT together with the various titles of God. I was the reader of our text at the meeting this morning, Isaiah 40, and as well as the word God (Elohim) occurring numerous times, there were many occurrences of LORD (Yahweh) and one occurrence of Lord GOD (Adonai Yahweh). A proper understanding of each of these give a better understanding of the chapter.

My own view is that looking at just the names is too narrow to come to any important conclusion about God. It's like saying, Here's Richard--and since you now know his name you certainly know what he is about because his name means such and such. Doesn't work for me!

I certainly see the need to understand the most important truths. I do not anticipate direct Holy Spirit guidance as the means of attaining this, but by a quiet meditation and consideration of the Word.

I'm not sure why the need for "quiet" meditation, because what God says in an important way should be "shouted from the housetops!" But I know what you mean. Some things require intense scrutiny and less interference.

Well, good luck figuring it out. I just suggest you determine things from a much larger frame of reference. Otherwise, you'll get lost, I think, in the minutia and speculate too much on it?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

Angels are there as "cherubim" in the Garden from the beginning, and we have no choice but to speculate on it.

I consider that the Cherubim that were placed at the entrance to the Garden after the transgression are part of a different theme, while i consider that Angels were active in the Garden before the transgression.

Angels are woven into the inner walls of the tabernacle, to some degree, and again--we are left to speculate.

It directly states Cherubim, not Angels and there were also Cherubim mounted on the Ark of the Testimony or Covenant in the Most Holy Place. A gradual building up of the theme.

we are invited to look at the whole package together.

Yes, the theme continues in Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel and Revelation 4 and elsewhere.

They (the angels) are *part of* the Creation, and as such, cannot participate with God as Creator. Or, do I have you wrong?

The Angels existed before the Creation record of six days in Genesis 1. There is no record of when they were created in Genesis.

So, you think Elohim--plural, is the product of Divine revelation, and not pagan superstition?

Yes. God is very careful and precise in all aspects about the revelation of Himself, and these are His Name Yahweh and the various Titles.

The idea of an "angelic language" means that God is in another universe, not connected to human experience. And this causes problems I think?

Whatever language it was, Adam talked with the Angels and we have the record of the conversation in Hebrew and now in an English translation. No problem here.

My own view is that looking at just the names is too narrow to come to any important conclusion about God. It's like saying, Here's Richard--and since you now know his name you certainly know what he is about because his name means such and such. Doesn't work for me!

There is a big difference today when we randomly allocate names to our children, and the Name and Titles that God has chosen to reveal many aspects of His Being, His character and His purpose.

Well, good luck figuring it out. I just suggest you determine things from a much larger frame of reference. Otherwise, you'll get lost, I think, in the minutia and speculate too much on it?

A reasonable suggestion. I enjoy both the overall view and some concentration on relevant and interesting detail. For example I very much like Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6 and ALL the detail and both of these are quoted often in the NT. I wish you well in your studies and progress.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again RandyK,

I consider that the Cherubim that were placed at the entrance to the Garden after the transgression are part of a different theme, while i consider that Angels were active in the Garden before the transgression.

It directly states Cherubim, not Angels and there were also Cherubim mounted on the Ark of the Testimony or Covenant in the Most Holy Place. A gradual building up of the theme.

Hi Trevor, This is not really the subject we were on, but I'm just curious: how do you differentiate between cherubim and angels? I always thought they were part of the same genre--just the difference between one order of angels and the general genre.

I don't know. All I know is that cherubim have a different name than "angel."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RandyK,

This is not really the subject we were on, but I'm just curious: how do you differentiate between cherubim and angels? I always thought they were part of the same genre--just the difference between one order of angels and the general genre.

I will give a brief overview of my assessment, and some of the reasons that have contributed to my conclusions. We meet them first guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden, and I consider their role as twofold. Firstly to prevent illegal entry so that mortal sinning man could not grasp at the tree of life and thus live forever (hence no immortal souls). I also consider that they were there to teach spiritual lessons concerning the way to the tree of life. Thus both positive and negative lessons concerning what I consider to be an early depiction of holiness and ultimately the Most Holy Place.

The Cherubim were also depicted in embroidery in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle and especially on the Vail. They were also part of the Ark in the Most Holy Place, beholding the Mercy Seat. They had wings and the four different faces were the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

The Cherubim were also revealed in the Vision to Ezekiel and each Cherubim had four wings and each also had the four faces mentioned above. There were four Cherubim in a formation with the Throne elevated in the midst.

The Seraphim of Isaiah seem very similar, but had six wings. The actual faces are not described. They were active around the Lord sitting on the Temple Throne in the Most Holy Place. Their six wings depicted certain activities, which are not clearly defined as to the meaning of this.

The four Living Creatures of Revelation 4 have six wings, but each Living Creature has only one face apiece, the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

Partly because of these divergences, and partly because I do not believe that any Angel has four faces, especially animal faces, then I consider the Cherubim to be symbolic Creatures. Angels appeared to various faithful, and were sometimes mistaken as men at first, and as a result I do not believe that Angels have wings as is often depicted in Art and Literature. I consider that the Cherubim of Genesis 3 were actually Angels acting the role of Cherubim, setting the role of the theme of guardians of the Most Holy. Perhaps this is where some of the confusion arises.

On the basis of the above, I then draw many lessons adding to these details, and perhaps one is that Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. You may disagree with some of my "additional details" that I have not disclosed, both concerning the Cherubim and Seraphim and also the Living Creatures, but I would be interested in your assessment of what I have already stated..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Ok. I agree the Angel of the LORD was not God the Father.

No one in the Old Testament ever saw God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


However, Moses saw God, He was seeing the Angel of the LORD.

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed… Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1,6

Jesus declared another as their God.
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

If God spoke through His prophets and by His Son in these last days, why can't He speak by His Angel?

I believe the Spirit of God was there along with His angel. The Angel was standing in the presence of God, and it was holy ground. The words spoken where from the mind of the Spirit.

Seeing an Angel of the Lord appear suddenly in front of you would tend to make one fearful.

Jacob wrestled with an Angel, yet he stated He saw Gods face and lived.

I believe TrevorL is Christadelphian, and they hold to Jesus as the Son of God and the Son is a glorified man. A biblical unitarian belief.

Yet even so the church believes God the Son descended and became flesh but state He had the spirit of a man. So in a way despite what they state they believe Jesus's spirit and body were formed in Mary's womb. A created Son of Man sounds unitarian to me. And when asked what part of the Son descended into that body if not His own spirit can't give an answer other then He descended. If asked if Jesus had a human body and a human spirit what part of Him was God, the orthodox answer would be all of Him. Clearly if the spirit of the son who was wasn't in that body then the answer is none of Him. The spirit of a man did not descend from heaven.

 

[RandyK]

Greetings again RandyK,

I will give a brief overview of my assessment, and some of the reasons that have contributed to my conclusions. We meet them first guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden, and I consider their role as twofold. Firstly to prevent illegal entry so that mortal sinning man could not grasp at the tree of life and thus live forever (hence no immortal souls). I also consider that they were there to teach spiritual lessons concerning the way to the tree of life. Thus both positive and negative lessons concerning what I consider to be an early depiction of holiness and ultimately the Most Holy Place.

The Cherubim were also depicted in embroidery in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle and especially on the Vail. They were also part of the Ark in the Most Holy Place, beholding the Mercy Seat. They had wings and the four different faces were the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

The Cherubim were also revealed in the Vision to Ezekiel and each Cherubim had four wings and each also had the four faces mentioned above. There were four Cherubim in a formation with the Throne elevated in the midst.

The Seraphim of Isaiah seem very similar, but had six wings. The actual faces are not described. They were active around the Lord sitting on the Temple Throne in the Most Holy Place. Their six wings depicted certain activities, which are not clearly defined as to the meaning of this.

The four Living Creatures of Revelation 4 have six wings, but each Living Creature has only one face apiece, the Lion, Eagle, Ox and Man.

Partly because of these divergences, and partly because I do not believe that any Angel has four faces, especially animal faces, then I consider the Cherubim to be symbolic Creatures. Angels appeared to various faithful, and were sometimes mistaken as men at first, and as a result I do not believe that Angels have wings as is often depicted in Art and Literature. I consider that the Cherubim of Genesis 3 were actually Angels acting the role of Cherubim, setting the role of the theme of guardians of the Most Holy. Perhaps this is where some of the confusion arises.

On the basis of the above, I then draw many lessons adding to these details, and perhaps one is that Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. You may disagree with some of my "additional details" that I have not disclosed, both concerning the Cherubim and Seraphim and also the Living Creatures, but I would be interested in your assessment of what I have already stated..

Kind regards
Trevor

I don't know. I read that angels are given to "guard" us, and that very holy areas were to be protected by cherubim. I do understand that there is a difference between protecting sacred places and protecting people. I suppose I just lack the kind of information that made this sound reasonable to the people who wrote this and read it? Thanks for your response.

 

[follower]

This triune nature of God is what we now understand as the Trinity.

The Jews/ Israelites who believe/believed in YHVH do not understand any 'triune nature' as that is not reality in Scripture nor in Yahshua.
The Truth is Perfectly Written IN Scripture, but mankind , sinful mankind, added to it what is often wrong.

 

[follower]

What do you believe He was before He became flesh?

When Jesus Himself asked Simon bar Jona who do people say that I am,
was anyone right at all , from the group "people" , as written.
Or was only Simon bar Jona right ?

 

[JLB]

I believe the Spirit of God was there along with His angel.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17


Happy Fourth of July. Freedom. Liberty for all through Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

When Jesus Himself asked Simon bar Jona who do people say that I am,
was anyone right at all , from the group "people" , as written.
Or was only Simon bar Jona right ?

Simon was right and received His revelation from God.


The revelation of Jesus Christ is unfolding throughout the New Testament.


Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, Ephesians 1:15-18

 

[Free]

The Jews/ Israelites who believe/believed in YHVH do not understand any 'triune nature' as that is not reality in Scripture nor in Yahshua.

This isn't entirely true. There were pre-Christ, Jewish groups the believed there was more to God than just one person. The OT hints in several places to a plurality within God, that there is something more to God than first meets the eye, while always maintaining that there is only one true God. The NT brings this out much stronger and much clearer, showing that Jesus is truly God and truly man, yet he is not the Father nor simply the Father in the flesh.

Besides, the Jews couldn't even understand that the Messiah was coming to die for the sins of the world, to reconcile all to God who would believe. If they couldn't understand that, why should we expect them to understand the very nature of God?

The Truth is Perfectly Written IN Scripture, but mankind , sinful mankind, added to it what is often wrong.

Sinful man also removes from what God has said. We must never make the Bible say more than it does, but we must also never make it say less.