What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[chessman]

eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

Yep. And a promise of God too. Stated "plainly and clearly" in v25. Right after where JB stopped the context quote.

1 John 2:25 (LEB) And this is the promise which he himself promised us: eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 (LEB) For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us. Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. ​

What's that??? How many of God's promises are yes? Oh yah, as many as are the promises. All of em. No that's "plain and clear".

how many people are there who have really trusted in Christ as Savior and then became "anti-christs"?

Evidently zero at the time/place of John's writing at least:

1 John 2:19 (LEB) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out, in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us. ​

To bad for anti-OSAS this verse doesn't say:

They went out from us, but they were not of us once believers; for if they had been of us continued to believe, they would have remained with us. But they went out, in order that it might be shown that all some of them are not on longer of us. (And only some of God's promises are yes. And only some of God's gifts are irrevocable)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While that seems to really bug some people, the bigger reality is that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

The obvious absurdity of eternal life not being revocable is that a believer can take the mark of the beast and they will still be saved, but the Bible is crystal clear that those who take the mark of the beast in a denial of Christ are lost for eternity:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”" (Revelation 14:9-11 NASB)

Then immediately in the passage believers are exhorted to resist the mark of the beast and persevere in faith after which they will enter into salvation rest:

"12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.” (Revelation 14:12 NASB)

But your doctrine completely contradicts these passages by saying that even denying Christ and departing the faith can not remove a believer from eternal life. That's not what these passages say. They say the exact opposite. The one who departs the faith and takes the mark will suffer damnation forever. Read it.


Equally absurd is thinking that leading a believer to leave the faith (take the mark of the beast, etc.) because you told them they are still saved if they do that is somehow not destroying the temple of God. If that isn't destroying the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB), what is, freegrace, what is????? What worse thing than leaving the faith is there that makes leaving the faith not the equivalent of destroying believers, the temple of God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The verses you've cobbled together do not say what your claim is. And I've explained that.

The person who does not continue in what they started out in (like the anti-christs who did not continue to abide in the teaching of the Apostles) does not have either the Father or the Son:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

And if you do not have the Son, you do not have eternal life:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

These PLAIN words, which are so plain they don't need interpretation (like you have to supply for your understanding of Romans 11:29), make it so we know without a doubt that the gift of eternal life simply is not, and can not be, included in the gifts that are irrevocable. Simply because both Paul and John say it IS revocable, if you do not hold fast and remain in the truth of Christ by which you were saved:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you (don't become an antichrist), you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB parenthesis mine)

But we knew eternal life wasn't included anyway since 'eternal life' isn't even in the context of the gifts and calling that Paul is talking about there in Romans 9-11, the chapters about Israel.

 

[FreeGrace]

The obvious absurdity of eternal life not being revocable is that a believer can take the mark of the beast and they will still be saved, but the Bible is crystal clear that those who take the mark of the beast in a denial of Christ are lost for eternity:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”" (Revelation 14:9-11 NASB)

So, where in this passage does it either say or just insinuate that believers will "take the mark"??

Isn't that a rather huge assumption? Of course it is.

If one insists on making assumptions, a better one would be to assume that by the time the false prophet sets up the image of the beast and starts marking everyone with the mark of the beast, all the unfaithful believers will have died the sin unto death. That makes much more sense.

Then immediately in the passage believers are exhorted to resist the mark of the beast and persevere in faith after which they will enter into salvation rest:

"12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.” (Revelation 14:12 NASB)

Where in this passage is there ANY evidence of believers being exhorted to resist the mark of the beast. Is this just another assumption?

But your doctrine completely contradicts these passages by saying that even denying Christ and departing the faith can not remove a believer from eternal life.

I've already proven that. (edited by staff)

That's not what these passages say.

What no passage says is that eternal life can be lost, taken away, forfeited, given away, ad nauseum.

 

[chessman]

But we knew eternal life wasn't included anyway since 'eternal life' isn't even in the context of the gifts and calling that Paul is talking about there in Romans 9-11, the chapters about Israel.

Wow??? Have you read verse 13, right before verse 29 were he tells the Gentiles that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ​

Or verse 28?

Romans 11:28 (LEB) With respect to the gospel, they [hardened Israel,v25] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.​

So much for your claim that Chapters 9-11 is about Israel.

Romans 11:11-13, 25, 28-29 Romans 9:8, 17-18, 24-25, 30 Romans 10:4, 11-13, 18-19 (LEB) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. That is, it is not the children by human descent [Israel] who are children of God, but the children of the promise [to everyone that believes] are counted as descendants. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they? May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him.
[and His promises and gifts and calling are thusly irrevocable to all]

And if their trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean? For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes. But I say, they have not heard, have they? On the contrary, “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.” But I say, Israel did not know, did they? First, Moses says, “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation; by a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he also says in Hosea, “I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and those who were not loved, ‘Loved.’ For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness—even the righteousness that is by faith. ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow??? Have you read verse 13, right before verse 29 were he tells the Gentiles that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ​

Or verse 28?

Romans 11:28 (LEB) With respect to the gospel, they [hardened Israel,v25] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.​

So much for your claim that Chapters 9-11 is about Israel.

Romans 11:11-13, 25, 28-29 Romans 9:8, 17-18, 24-25, 30 Romans 10:4, 11-13, 18-19 (LEB) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. That is, it is not the children by human descent [Israel] who are children of God, but the children of the promise [to everyone that believes] are counted as descendants. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they? May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him.
[and His promises and gifts and calling are thusly irrevocable to all]

And if their trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean? For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes. But I say, they have not heard, have they? On the contrary, “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.” But I say, Israel did not know, did they? First, Moses says, “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation; by a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he also says in Hosea, “I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and those who were not loved, ‘Loved.’ For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness—even the righteousness that is by faith. ​

Paul starts his discourse about Israel with chapter 9.

"3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separatedfrom Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the templeservice and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:3-5 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where in this passage is there ANY evidence of believers being exhorted to resist the mark of the beast.

"12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Revelation NASB)

"2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God." (Revelation 15:2 NASB)

'Perseverance', 'victorious'....that signifies a required resistance on behalf of the saints. Of course this is about resisting the mark of the beast, or else be doomed to an eternal damnation. But your doctrine says I'm still saved even if I denounce Christ and take the mark of the beast.

 

[FreeGrace]

The person who does not continue in what they started out in (like the anti-christs who did not continue to abide in the teaching of the Apostles) does not have either the Father or the Son:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

And if you do not have the Son, you do not have eternal life:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

The problem with this line of thinking is that even though some "do not have the Son", if they ever believed and left, they are held by God in His own hand, and they cannot remove themselves from His hand.

The Bible plainly says so.
John 10:28,29
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Jesus was making 2 points here.
1. Those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.
2. Any believer who is able to remove him self from the Father's hand must be 'greater than the Father'.

(edited by staff)

These PLAIN words, which are so plain they don't need interpretation (like you have to supply for your understanding of Romans 11:29), make it so we know without a doubt that the gift of eternal life simply is not, and can not be, included in the gifts that are irrevocable.

Yet, Paul NEVER said that. So it's just another huge assumption. And just read what I posted above this, which proves that even those who leave the faith are STILL in the Father's hand.

Simply because both Paul and John say it IS revocable, if you do not hold fast and remain in the truth of Christ by which you were saved:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you (don't become an antichrist), you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB parenthesis mine)

Excuse me, but I seem to have missed where Paul and John said anything about eternal life being revocable, as is being claimed. Please quote the verses and highlight where they said that.

But we knew eternal life wasn't included anyway since 'eternal life' isn't even in the context of the gifts and calling that Paul is talking about there in Romans 9-11, the chapters about Israel.

lol. Seriously? Paul is the one who actually mentioned 3 gifts of God before he wrote 11:29. So of course those would be in the context of 11:29.

Why wouldn't they? They are gifts of God, and Paul wrote that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

Where did he exclude the gift of eternal life anywhere in Romans? He didn't. Therefore, you have no evidence for your position.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this this:
"Where in this passage is there ANY evidence of believers being exhorted to resist the mark of the beast."

"12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Revelation NASB)

"2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God." (Revelation 15:2 NASB)

'Perseverance', 'victorious'....that signifies a required resistance on behalf of the saints. Of course this is about resisting the mark of the beast, or else be doomed to an eternal damnation. But your doctrine says I'm still saved even if I denounce Christ and take the mark of the beast.

Once again, all this is nothing more than a huge assumption.

Your statement, "of course this is about resisting the mark of the beast" is just an opinion. There is NOTHING about resisting the mark of the beast in the passage. You've only imagined it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this this:
"Where in this passage is there ANY evidence of believers being exhorted to resist the mark of the beast."

'Perseverance', 'victorious'. Read it...
"12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Revelation 14:12 NASB)

"2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God." (Revelation 15:2 NASB)

To persevere in your faith and be victorious is to resist and overcome, and as a result inherit eternal life, not be eternally damned with those who do not persevere and instead take the mark. But your doctrine says if a believer does not persevere in their faith in Jesus and they take the mark of the beast, or denounce Christ when the crazed Muslim extremist is about to cut their head off they are still saved and retain eternal life despite their denial of Christ. But that doctrine is in direct contradiction to what John says in 1 & 2 John and Revelation: The person who denies Christ loses eternal life. You have to continue to abide in the gospel of Christ, not denounce it, in order to continue to have eternal life. Antichrists do not get to keep their eternal life. Only believers who continue to believe have and retain eternal life:

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning (don't be an antichrist like the one's who did not abide with us--vs.19). If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

"...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

'Perseverance', 'victorious'. Read it...
"12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Revelation 14:12 NASB)

"2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God." (Revelation 15:2 NASB)

To persevere in your faith and be victorious is to resist and overcome, and as a result inherit eternal life, not be eternally damned with those who do not persevere and instead take the mark. But your doctrine says if a believer does not persevere in their faith in Jesus and they take the mark of the beast, or denounce Christ when the crazed Muslim extremist is about to cut their head off they are still saved and retain eternal life despite their denial of Christ. But that doctrine is in direct contradiction to what John says in 1 & 2 John and Revelation: The person who denies Christ loses eternal life. You have to continue to abide in the gospel of Christ, not denounce it, in order to continue to have eternal life. Antichrists do not get to keep their eternal life. Only believers who continue to believe have and retain eternal life:

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning (don't be an antichrist like the one's who did not abide with us--vs.19). If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

"...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

Still didn't point out where believers are exhorted to resist the mark of the beast.

As to your understanding of 1 John 2:22-24, since it doesn't mention eternal life, where else in Scripture would one read about how a believer loses eternal life? I mean, specifically, where eternal life is mentioned and the subject is loss of it.

Because if anyone could lose eternal life, there most definitely would be some clear statements about that.

However, I find the EXACT opposite. Those who have it will never perish. That means everyone who has been given the gift of eternal life cannot end up in hell.

 

[JLB]

So, where in this passage does it either say or just insinuate that believers will "take the mark"??

Isn't that a rather huge assumption? Of course it is.

If one insists on making assumptions, a better one would be to assume that by the time the false prophet sets up the image of the beast and starts marking everyone with the mark of the beast, all the unfaithful believers will have died the sin unto death. That makes much more sense.


Where in this passage is there ANY evidence of believers being exhorted to resist the mark of the beast. Is this just another assumption?


I've already proven that. (edited by staff)


What no passage says is that eternal life can be lost, taken away, forfeited, given away, ad nauseum.

If ANYONE....

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on hishand, 10he also will drink ofthe wine of the wrath of God,which is mixed in full strengthin the cup of His anger; and hewill be tormented with fire andbrimstone in the presence ofthe holy angels and in thepresence of the Lamb.

So now, you won't even warn Christians against taking the mark of the beast????


You are Teaching them they can take this mark and still have eternal life?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who have it will never perish. That means everyone who has been given the gift of eternal life cannot end up in hell.

If a believer stops believing they will indeed end up in hell:

7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

This same John who says those who follow Christ will never perish also said the unbelieving will go to the lake of fire. Both can't be true, except that the promise to never perish is only for those who continue in their faith in Christ. But we didn't have to wonder about that anyway since he plainly says that:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

You lose God and Christ if you do not continue in the word of Christ, the gospel, and those who do not have the Son of God "do not have the life". These are the plain words of scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So now, you won't even warn Christians against taking the mark of the beast????


You are Teaching them they can take this mark and still have eternal life?

And if that isn't destroying the body and temple of God, what is?
And so I ask again, FreeGrace, what constitutes destroying the temple of God in the verse below?

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

What worse thing is there than leading believers in the temple of God into unbelief?

There is no reward waiting for the person who does that. Only the promise of destruction.

 

[FreeGrace]

If ANYONE....

It's unbelievers who take the mark that won't have any opportunity to accept Christ.

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on hishand, 10he also will drink ofthe wine of the wrath of God,which is mixed in full strengthin the cup of His anger; and hewill be tormented with fire andbrimstone in the presence ofthe holy angels and in thepresence of the Lamb.

So now, you won't even warn Christians against taking the mark of the beast????

So now, why jump to such conclusions?

You are Teaching them they can take this mark and still have eternal life?

I guess my last post was not read.

If my posts aren't being read, why bother responding to what you don't know about?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a believer stops believing they will indeed end up in hell:

This is a mere opinion unless accompanied by clear Scripture.

7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

Hm. Nothing here about believers who cease to believe. We've already had that discussion of how the Bible (not you) uses the word "unbeliever". But you are free to continue to believe what ever appeals to you.

This same John who says those who follow Christ will never perish also said the unbelieving will go to the lake of fire.

Because they will go to the lake of fire.

Both can't be true, except that the promise to never perish is only for those who continue in their faith in Christ.

Since you've still failed to provide any verse that makes any statement of losing salvation if one loses faith, it is still just an opinion.

And I never base theology on the opinions of others.

But we didn't have to wonder about that anyway since he plainly says that:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

Still nothing about ceasing to believe here.

Speculation and assumptions is all that you've provided. Not enough to make a doctrine out of it.

 

[JLB]

For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Everyone who believes in Him for a while... The returns to unbelieving will be put to shame.

Romans 11 shows who the true Israel of God is.

Those who are joined to Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's unbelievers who take the mark that won't have any opportunity to accept Christ.

Anyone means anyone.

Case Closed.

 

[JLB]

Hm. Nothing here about believers who cease to believe. We've already had that discussion of how the Bible (not you) uses the word "unbeliever"

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe have returned to unbelieving.

Is a person who no longer believes still a believer?


JLB

 

[chessman]

The person who does not continue in what they started out in ... does not have either the Father or the Son:

Welcome to OSAS. Glad you're on board finally.

John 6:63a (LEB) The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
​

When the person of The Holy Spirit does not continue in what He started out in (giving life to all saved people) then The Holy Spirit does not have either the Father or the Son.

John 7:37-39 (LEB) Now on the last day of the feast—the great day—Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let him drink, the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
​

When the person of The Holy Spirit does not continue in what He started out in (giving living water to all saved people) then The Holy Spirit does not have either the Father or the Son.

John 14:26 (LEB) But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name—that one will teach you all things, and will remind you of everything that I said to you.
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When the person of The Holy Spirit does not continue in what He started out in (advocating and teaching all saved people) then The Holy Spirit does not have either the Father or the Son.

John 15:26-27 (LEB) “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father—that one will testify about me. And you also will testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.
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When the person of The Holy Spirit does not continue in what He started out in (testifying about Jesus Christ to all saved people) then The Holy Spirit does not have either the Father or the Son.

John 16:13 (LEB) But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come.
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When the person of The Holy Spirit does not continue in what He started out in (guiding saved people toward all truth) then The Holy Spirit does not have either the Father or the Son.

Romans 8:11 (LEB) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
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And last but not least: When the person of The Holy Spirit does not continue in what He started out in (making alive the mortal bodies of all saved people) then The Holy Spirit does not have either the Father or the Son.

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