What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[JLB]

It's unbelievers who take the mark that won't have any opportunity to accept Christ.

Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, regardless of taking the mark of the beast.

Why would the Apostle John, writing to the Church, warn unbelievers, who do don't believe in Christ, who don't believe the bible, and who don't believe him, about the mark of the beast???

The only thing to do with unbelievers is preach the Gospel to them warning them of hell if they don't believe.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Everyone who believes in Him for a while... The returns to unbelieving will be put to shame.

They certainly will. But those who believe HAVE the irrevocable gift of eternal life. As previously proven.

Romans 11 shows who the true Israel of God is.

Those who are joined to Christ.
JLB

True again!! And no one can prove from Scripture that those who have been "joined" (sealed with the Holy Spirit) can kick the Spirit out.

In fact, the believer is held in God's hand. And, as Jesus said, NO ONE is greater than the Father, able to remove the believer from His hand. And since "no one" really means "no person", even the believer himself, if he is a person, can remove himself from God's hand.

Once again, we are eternally secure.

But, as you've noted here, if believers cease to believe, they will be put to shame.

Good job! It's not often I can agree to anything in your posts, but today I do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Anyone means anyone.

Case Closed.

The case was closed when Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable, AFTER writing that justification and eternal life are gifts of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe have returned to unbelieving.

Is a person who no longer believes still a believer?
JLB

A person who HAS ever believed is saved. Because they HAVE eternal life, which is an irrevocable gift of God.

Case closed.

So, it doesn't matter, regarding salvation, if one continues to believe or not. I know that horribly bugs a lot of people, but those that are bugged just don't understand anything about God's grace.

We don't earn or deserve salvation EVEN IF we keep our noses clean our whole life. So EVEN IF some cease to believe, once given the IRREVOCABLE gift of eternal life, they stay saved.

Case closed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, regardless of taking the mark of the beast.

Why would the Apostle John, writing to the Church, warn unbelievers, who do don't believe in Christ, who don't believe the bible, and who don't believe him, about the mark of the beast???

He was simply teaching prophesy, which is what is going on. And why claim that he was "warning unbelievers about the mark of the beast"? Where's the evidence?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

FreeGrace, you never answered this question.
What constitutes destroying the temple of God in the verse below?

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, you never answered this question.
What constitutes destroying the temple of God in the verse below?

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

Simple. The context for "the temple of God" is found in the previous verse, v.16 - Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

So, the believer is God's temple. Paul clearly says that those who destroy, which means to kill, a believer will will himself be killed by God.

Here's the Greek word:
phtheirō
1) to corrupt, to destroy
1a) in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or “destroyed” when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
1b) to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide
1c) to be destroyed, to perish
1d) in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

What do you think it means?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Simple. The context for "the temple of God" is found in the previous verse, v.16 - Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

So, the believer is God's temple. Paul clearly says that those who destroy, which means to kill, a believer will will himself be killed by God.

Here's the Greek word:
phtheirō
1) to corrupt, to destroy
1a) in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or “destroyed” when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
1b) to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide
1c) to be destroyed, to perish
1d) in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

What do you think it means?

Given what you teach believers I can see why it's necessary that you interpret it as killing a believer.

From's Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Corrupt, Verb and Adjective. Corruption, Corruptible, Incorruption, Incorruptible:
signifies "to destroy by means of corrupting," and so "bringing into a worse state;"
(a) with this significance it is used of the effect of evil company upon the manners of believers, and so of the effect of association with those who deny the truth and hold false doctrine, 1Cr 15:33 (this was a saying of the pagan poet Menander, which became a well known proverb); in 2Cr 7:2, of the effects of dishonorable dealing by bringing people to want (a charge made against the Apostle); in 2Cr 11:3, of the effects upon the minds (or thoughts) of believers by "corrupting" them "from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ;" in Eph 4:22, intransitively, of the old nature in waxing "corrupt," "morally decaying, on the way to final ruin" (Moule), "after the lusts of deceit;" in Rev 19:2, metaphorically, of the Babylonish harlot, in "corrupting" the inhabitants of the earth by her false religion.

(b) With the significance of destroying, it is used of marring a local church by leading it away from that condition of holiness of life and purity of doctrine in which it should abide, 1Cr 3:17(AV, "defile"), and of God's retributive destruction of the offender who is guilty of this sin (id.); of the effects of the work of false and abominable teachers upon themselves, 2Pe 2:12(some texts have kataphtheiro; AV, "shall utterly perish"), andJud 1:10 (AV, "corrupt themselves." RV, marg., "are corrupted").
See DEFILE and DESTROY.​

It doesn't mean to physically kill a fellow believer. It means to cause a believer to stumble, to corrupt them, to lead them away from holiness...you know, like when you tell them they can cave into temptation and deny Christ, leaving the faith, and they then do that. Jesus said it's better to have a millstone tied around your neck and drowned in the sea than to cause a believer to stumble, destroying the work of God.

By telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, you will be destroyed for doing that. But God will forgive you if you repent of doing this. Your bio says you don't have a lot of time left to do so. I urge you to stop telling believers they can stop believing and they are still good with God in salvation so you can be spared the fate of those who destroy believers.

 

[FreeGrace]

Given what you teach believers I can see why it's necessary that you interpret it as killing a believer.

Those who wish to believe that God would "corrupt" anyone may do so. But that makes no sense because the Bible is clear that God doesn't even tempt anyone. So corrupting someone seems out of the question.

From's Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Corrupt, Verb and Adjective. Corruption, Corruptible, Incorruption, Incorruptible:
signifies "to destroy by means of corrupting," and so "bringing into a worse state;"
(a) with this significance it is used of the effect of evil company upon the manners of believers, and so of the effect of association with those who deny the truth and hold false doctrine, 1Cr 15:33 (this was a saying of the pagan poet Menander, which became a well known proverb); in 2Cr 7:2, of the effects of dishonorable dealing by bringing people to want (a charge made against the Apostle); in 2Cr 11:3, of the effects upon the minds (or thoughts) of believers by "corrupting" them "from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ;" in Eph 4:22, intransitively, of the old nature in waxing "corrupt," "morally decaying, on the way to final ruin" (Moule), "after the lusts of deceit;" in Rev 19:2, metaphorically, of the Babylonish harlot, in "corrupting" the inhabitants of the earth by her false religion.​

OK, I have no problem with "bringing into a worse state". That actually fits better than killing someone who kills a believer.

(b) With the significance of destroying, it is used of marring a local church by leading it away from that condition of holiness of life and purity of doctrine in which it should abide, 1Cr 3:17(AV, "defile"), and of God's retributive destruction of the offender who is guilty of this sin (id.); of the effects of the work of false and abominable teachers upon themselves, 2Pe 2:12(some texts have kataphtheiro; AV, "shall utterly perish"), andJud 1:10 (AV, "corrupt themselves." RV, marg., "are corrupted").
See DEFILE and DESTROY.

It doesn't mean to physically kill a fellow believer. It means to cause a believer to stumble, to corrupt them, to lead them away from holiness...

The chink here is that God would never corrupt anyone.

By telling believers they can stop believing and they will still be saved, and they then do that, you will be destroyed for doing that.

Except the Bible teaches that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. So your ideas cannot be true.

But God will forgive you if you repent of doing this. Your bio says you don't have a lot of time left to do so. I urge you to stop telling believers they can stop believing and they are still good with God in salvation so you can be spared the fate of those who destroy believers.

I NEVER have told any believer to stop believing. Your [edited] suggestion is quite odious. Instead, if I ever did meet up with such a person, I'd warn them of God's severe discipline if they ever did stop believing.

No believer who defiantly sins and rebels against God is "good with God". [edited] I've never met nor read about anyone so stupid as to teach that. But maybe there some who actually do that.

It's your side that has rejected the truth of Scripture, that eternal life is irrevocable. And it can't be given away; otherwise the Word would have said so. But it doesn't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And it can't be given away; otherwise the Word would have said so. But it doesn't.

I see it clear as day in the Word. Salvation is conditioned on continued believing:

"..you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

Antichrists do not get to keep eternal life. When a believer denies the Father and the Son becoming an antichrist they do not remain in the salvation/ eternal life they have rejected. I find it interesting that people would defend antichrists being saved. That's why it's called 'hyper-grace'. They bend God's grace beyond where it can legitimately go. Grace does not cover antichrists.

When someone builds the temple of God with that kind of doctrine their work will be shown on the Day of Judgment for what it is. People who think they can become an antichrist, denying the Father and the Son who saved them, lose the power of God for salvation and will be burned up in the Judgment. They will be work accomplished in the building of God that will be burned up in the coming Judgment by fire, the final cleansing of God's household.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who wish to believe that God would "corrupt" anyone may do so.

Right, God does not corrupt anyone. False teachers do.
When a teacher teaches things that embolden believers to become corrupt (destroyed) the teacher himself will also be destroyed:

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3: NASB)

Saying you can reject the Father and the Son and become an antichrist and you are still saved surely is a doctrine that corrupts the people of God. Those people sitting in bars getting drunk thinking they can do that because they will remain saved have been destroyed. The person who gave them the courage to do that through that doctrine will be destroyed too. This is the harsh reality taught in our Bibles that few talk about. Out of fear for not only losing reward for our labor in the building of God, but also for fear of being destroyed for destroying others by what we teach we must be careful how we build:

"each man must be careful how he builds" (1 Corinthians 3:10 NASB)


.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And it can't be given away; otherwise the Word would have said so. But it doesn't."

I see it clear as day in the Word. Salvation is conditioned on continued believing:

Why are your posts always talking over mine?? I was speaking about giving away eternal life. We know that God WILL NOT take it away, because the gifts of God are irrevocable. So, the ONLY WAY for one who has eternal life to no long have it, would be by giving it away. So where are the verses that teach such a thing?

"..you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

This verse has been explained so many times. Look at the first phrase: "you ARE SAVED". Got it? Now, the last phrase: "unless you believed in vain (Greek word = without reason).

iow, one must believe with a reason, or goal in mind. And that goal or reason is heaven.

Now for the phrase that keeps tripping you up: "if you hold fast (possess) the word which I preached to you".

What your posts keep denying is that the whole salvation "package", once received, is irrevocable. Therefore, once received, it continues to be POSSESSED.

Eph 1:13 teaches about the sealing with the Holy Spirit for those who believe. It's not an on-going process. It happens WHEN one believes:
"And you also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit".

Your views seem to completely ignore this verse.

But there's more. The next verse is quite clear: who (the indwlling Holy Spirit) is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What else can the phrase "guaranteeing our inheritance" mean but eternal security? Can you please answer this specific question?
And there's even more: 1 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We know what's coming: eternity. And our eternal security is GUARANTEED by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2 simply cannot mean what you'd like it to mean.

btw, 1 Cor 15:2 doesn't say anything about giving away your eternal life.

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

Neither does this verse say anything about giving away eternal life.

No one can prove from Scripture that eternal life is NOT an irrevocable gift of God. And no one can prove from Scripture that eternal life can be given away.

Therefore, the Bible teaches eternal security.

Antichrists do not get to keep eternal life.

Please show me from Scripture where any antichrist ever HAD eternal life. Otherwise, your statement is simply very wrong. Unless there is proof positive that any antichrist EVER had eternal life, you have no point.

When a believer denies the Father and the Son becoming an antichrist they do not remain in the salvation/ eternal life they have rejected.

So, again, prove your claim.

I find it interesting that people would defend antichrists being saved.

What I defend is God's Word about eternal security.

That's why it's called 'hyper-grace'. They bend God's grace beyond where it can legitimately go.

Uh, you're not the one to describe what God's grace is, or where it goes. The very fact of using the perjorative phrase "hyper-grace" shows a very negative view of just HOW FAR God's grace actually goes.

In my opinion, those who use the term "hyper-grace" are simply anti-grace. In fact, they don't like how far God's grace really goes. It bothers them greatly.

Just remember: Christ died for the sins of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. That's how far it goes.

So why would a rebellious child be so much worse than the worst sinner that Christ died for? The problem is one's view of God's grace, which I've pointed out many times.

When someone builds the temple of God with that kind of doctrine their work will be shown on the Day of Judgment for what it is.

And rejecting God's clear promise (which is a GUARANTEE) of eternal security will certainly be shown on the Day of Judgment for EXACTLY what it is: false doctrine.

People who think they can become an antichrist, denying the Father and the Son who saved them, lose the power of God for salvation and will be burned up in the Judgment.

Once again, this opinion has not been proven from Scripture.

What HAS BEEN PROVEN is eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, God does not corrupt anyone. False teachers do.

Then I'd advise you to be very careful in how you handle God's MATCHLESS grace.

 

[chessman]

When someone builds the temple of God with that kind of doctrine their work will be shown on the Day of Judgment for what it is.

Right! Bingo! Bravo!

That kind of doctrine (false doctrine) will indeed be shown for what it is. (see my post #5 where I made this very point).

When someone builds false doctrine upon the foundational truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for your sins and raised again (see 1 Cor 15) they are in essence placing 'straw/hay/wood' upon the cornerstone that is the foundationally true doctrine of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. It is precisely their false doctrines (things of darkness, hidden counsels within their hearts) which will one day (on the day the Lord should come) be revealed with fire. But DO NOT miss the fact that Paul (not me) ends the sentence with; he himself will be saved, but so as through fire, v 15.

Or put another way again ending the sentence with "and then praise will come to each one from God":

1 Corinthians 4:5 (LEB) Therefore do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord should come, who will both enlighten the hidden things of darkness and will reveal the counsels of hearts, and then praise will come to each one from God.
​

When a teacher teaches things that embolden believers to become corrupt (destroyed) the teacher himself will also be destroyed:

Correct again.

Which is why using 1 Cor 3:15 or 17 to teach anti-OSAS makes zero sense (logically or Scripturally).

Think about it. You've already acknowledged that the verb translated destroy DOES NOT mean; 1) to send to Hell/LoF or 2) remove Eternal Life from someone or 3) to de-save someone. It means to defile/corrupt someone and/or something. In the case of 1 Cor 3:17 it means to corrupt yourself and/or others within God's Temple/church with false doctrines (You are the temple of God).

For God’s temple is holy, which you are.

1 Cor 3:17a If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy this one.​

It's simply illogical and obviously question begging and anti-Scriptural to interpret 1 Cor 3:17 as if it says:

'If anyone teaches false doctrine, God will send this person to Hell.'

Not to mention that, if that were the true interpretation, would mean there will be people standing before Jesus on the Day of Judgment that truly in their hearts did (AND still do) believe in the foundational Gospel are sent to Hell anyway simply because they taught a separate but false doctrine and someone else happened to believe them. Take your pick of false doctrines too;

Eternal Security vs conditional security
OSAS vs anti-OSAS
sprinkle vs dunk
Saturday vs Sunday
Tongues vs cessation of tongues
etc.

Yet we know very well that people on both sides of these issues can and do believe in the foundational doctrine of Jesus Christ!

 

[JLB]

They certainly will. But those who believe HAVE the irrevocable gift of eternal life. As previously proven.

What has been proven to you is that eternal life is given to those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord, and have become slaves to righteousness whose fruit is unto holiness.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

Those who live their life practicing sin, will receive the wages for sin, which is death.

The salvation of our souls is received at the end of our faith, after we have lived our life and been tested and approved... we will receive the crown of life.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

The genuineness of our faith will be tested throughout this life, and may or may not be found to honor God.

Those who have faith for a while, then later when tested, they depart from their faith, no longer have the substance of the salvation that they previously hoped for.

The salvation of our souls is received at the end of our faith, after we have lived our life and been tested and approved... we will receive the crown of life.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12


The OSAS doctrine, excludes the whole process of testing the bible so plainly teaches us.


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = saved for a while.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

These believed, then during a time of temptation [persecution because of the word] they no longer believed.

Believing for a while, then returning to the unbelieving state they formerly held.

As Peter and James teach us, the testing will strengthen us, or cause us to depart from the faith.


2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

The Perspective of Rich and Poor:
9 Let the lowly brother glory in his exaltation, 10 but the rich in his humiliation, because as a flower of the field he will pass away. 11 For no sooner has the sun risen with a burning heat than it withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beautiful appearance perishes. So the rich man also will fade away in his pursuits.

Loving God Under Trials:
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:2-12

I will be discussing this process of continuing in faith, and trust in the Lord, while being tested, and persecuted as it relates to our salvation, and I would like to see how the OSAS side of the aisle perceives this process and how it's outcome relate to salvation and eternal life.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

A Good Servant of Jesus Christ
6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. 7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Take Heed to Your Ministry
12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. 15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:1-16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Eternal Security vs conditional security

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:1,16

The condition for salvation is to believe.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

And Timothy did do those very things.

Your point?

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Two questions:
1. What Scripture says this? It ain't 1 Tim 4:1,16 or 1 Cor 3:17 or 1 Cor 3:15

2. Can you name one person from the Text that examples this doctrine of yours?
When you suggested Judas was such a person, it was shown to you and others reading this thread that Judas was specifically called out as a unbeliever from the beginning but you did not take heed of that fact. So name someone from the Text and show the Scripture.

 

[WIP]

It seems that there is a growing air of smugness in this thread. Regardless of how frustrated one gets there is no justification for getting personal. Please check emotions at the door!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then I'd advise you to be very careful in how you handle God's MATCHLESS grace.

But according to your doctrine, when taken to it's logical conclusion, there is no such thing as corrupting the body and temple of God.
I thought you would have figured that out by now as the logical conclusion to what you are saying.
If even losing faith altogether is not corrupting the building of God, how can anything less than that be?

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3: NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right! Bingo! Bravo!

That kind of doctrine (false doctrine) will indeed be shown for what it is. (see my post #5 where I made this very point).

How is the hammer you use on a house the work you accomplish in that house?
Explain.
(this ought to be good).

Doctrine is only the tool you use to build the temple of God which the passage says are the people who compose that temple. The work accomplished is the people in the temple of God, not the doctrine used to build them into it.