What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[JLB]

So, one gets into heaven by "doing good"?

What ever happened to Christ's sacrifice to pay the sin penalty (1 Pet 2:24) and believing in him for eternal life (Jn 3:15,16,5:24,6:40,47)?

By believing/obeying the Gospel, in which they repent, a person in transferred from the kingdom or domain of darkness into the kingdom of God, and they are forgiven their sins.

Once a person has become a citizen of God's kingdom, and have been given the Holy Spirit, they are now empowered to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, in obedience to their new Lord and King Jesus Christ.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

Thank God, we have the Holy Spirit who empowers us, as well as energizes our will, to both desire and do His good pleasure.


Paul words are unmistakably crystal clear.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

BUT... to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,


Argue with the Holy Spirit who moved upon Paul to write these words.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23


For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

It's a choice that we all have to make...For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who are "in Christ", as in sealed with the Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13 and 14, have eternal life. And the sealing is FOR the day of redemption. Therefore, eternal security.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Once we are "in Christ", we are told that we must remain in Him, or else we could end up thrown into the fire and burned.

Aspects of abiding in Him:

But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:16-24

But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43


JLB

 

[JLB]

Rom 2:7 is talking about the righteousness of the law. A principle that you salvation by works Neo-Circumcision types have put your faith in. Paul says, "there is no one who does good, not even one."

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;


but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

 

[FreeGrace]

By believing/obeying the Gospel, in which they repent, a person in transferred from the kingdom or domain of darkness into the kingdom of God, and they are forgiven their sins.

To obey the gospel means to believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, rose from the dead and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Once a person has become a citizen of God's kingdom, and have been given the Holy Spirit, they are now empowered to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, in obedience to their new Lord and King Jesus Christ.

To "work out your salvation" refers to progressive sanctification, also known as spiritual growth.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

There are 3 tenses involved in salvation:
past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin
present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin
future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin

Phil 2:13 refers to the present tense of salvation; being saved from the power of sin by working it out.

Thank God, we have the Holy Spirit who empowers us, as well as energizes our will, to both desire and do His good pleasure.

Indeed, thank God. However, we are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit rather than wine (Eph 5:18), and told that if we walk by means of the Holy Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16).

As well, we are commanded to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

So, in order to work out our salvation, we MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit and walk by His means, and we MUST stop grieving/quenching Him. Agreed?

Paul words are unmistakably crystal clear.

They always are. Which is why I love reading His epistles.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

BUT... to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

However, it seems some just keep on misunderstanding what Paul wrote that is unmistakably crystal clear.

Because, after writing Rom 2:6-8, he ALSO continued on with this:
2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

So we see that Paul equated "persistence in doing good" in v.7 with "obeying the law" in v.13. iow, v.7 means to obey the law in order to be declared righteous.

However, Paul then continues with these words:
Rom 3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

That statement alone proves that no one will get eternal life by "persistence in doing good".

But he didn't stop there. He continued on in v.12 - All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Then, he concludes with this, from v.23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Paul is unmistakably crystal clear about the nature of all humans. No one will receive eternal life by "persistence in doing good", as some here keep claiming. In fact, we're all sinners.

But that's not all. Again consider 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Now consider 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

So, how can anyone use Rom 2:6-8 as a means of obtaining eternal life after all Paul wrote??

So 2:6-8 can only be understood as Paul telling us that no one can obtain eternal life by doing good. Because all have sinned.

Argue with the Holy Spirit who moved upon Paul to write these words.

I believe that the argument is only on your side by continuing to claim that eternal life can be obtained by persistence in doing good, even though Paul refuted that possibility by everything else he wrote.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23

There is no mystery here. Those who have believed in Jesus Christ HAVE eternal life. Certainly not by "persistence in doing good", which he thoroughly refuted in 3:9, 12, 20 and 23.

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

It's a choice that we all have to make...For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
JLB

It's a choice we all must make. Since we're all sinners, according to Paul (Rom 3:9, 12, 23) and NO ONE will be declared righteous by obeying the law (Rom 3:20), the ONLY way to obtain eternal life is by believing what the Bible says about how to receive eternal life.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Those who think they can persist in doing good and are expecting eternal life as a result will be greatly shocked when they wake up in hell after leaving this life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this, which was totally ignored.
"Those who are "in Christ", as in sealed with the Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13 and 14, have eternal life. And the sealing is FOR the day of redemption. Therefore, eternal security."

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Once we are "in Christ", we are told that we must remain in Him, or else we could end up thrown into the fire and burned.

Aspects of abiding in Him:

But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:16-24

But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43
JLB

It is always interesting how those who reject eternal security always ignore the Scriptures that refutes their ideas.

 

[JLB]

I said this, which was totally ignored.
"Those who are "in Christ", as in sealed with the Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13 and 14, have eternal life. And the sealing is FOR the day of redemption. Therefore, eternal security."

It is always interesting how those who reject eternal security always ignore the Scriptures that refutes their ideas.

When you actually post a scripture, I will read it and discuss it.

The letters and numbers Eph 1:13 are not scriptures.

Those who are "In Christ" have eternal life.

Those who are "in Christ" for a while, then are cast out as a branch, end up being gathered up and thrown into the fire.

Living eternally in the lake of fire, being tormented day and night, is not eternal life, but eternal death.

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6


That's what your "theory" seems to ignore.

In Him = Eternal Life

In Him then cast out of Him = Gathered up and thrown into the fire.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this, which was totally ignored.
"Those who are "in Christ", as in sealed with the Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13 and 14, have eternal life. And the sealing is FOR the day of redemption. Therefore, eternal security."

It is always interesting how those who reject eternal security always ignore the Scriptures that refutes their ideas.

When you actually post a scripture, I will read it and discuss it.

Well then, what are you waiting for??

The letters and numbers Eph 1:13 are not scriptures.

No, that's what is called "posting Scripture". Do you not have access to any Bibles and are unfamiliar with what Eph 1:13 and 14 say?

Those who are "In Christ" have eternal life.

Correct. Those who have believed are "in Christ", per Eph 1:13 which says - And you also were included IN Christ WHEN you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked IN him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

What is clear from this verse is that WHEN one hears and believes the word of truth, they ARE marked IN HIM with a seal, which is the promised Holy Spirit.

So, again, one is sealed with the Holy Spirit WHEN one hears and believes the word of truth.

Now, please explain how the next verse, v.14, doesn't teach eternal security by explaining what it does teach.

v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, we see that the Holy Spirit is a deposit who GUARANTEES our inheritance until redemption.

Or, as the NASB renders v.14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

So, if v.14 doesn't teach eternal security, one has to explain what it means for the Holy Spirit to be given as a pledge, which is a PROMISE of our inheritance, and what "with a view to the redemption of God's own possession" means, if not a guarantee of salvation.

Now, there is no excuse for ignoring these 2 verses.

Those who are "in Christ" for a while, then are cast out as a branch, end up being gathered up and thrown into the fire.

Since no one has yet proven from exegesis that being "thrown into the fire" means hell, the comment is irrelevant and superfluous to the discussion.

In fact, 1 Cor 3:14,15 also mentions fire, but notice the outcome of that fire:
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Please explain what it means to be "burned up and suffer loss, but he himself WILL BE SAVED".

Living eternally in the lake of fire, being tormented day and night, is not eternal life, but eternal death.

It is a mistake to think that anyone will be "living eternally" in the lake of fire, since it is also called "the second death".

And since eternal life is ETERNAL, it cannot die. And, no one has yet shown any verse that teaches that it is revocable. To the contrary, Paul taught that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of those gifts of God. I've quoted the verses enough. So please don't claim I don't quote Scripture.

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

I will await your comments about explaining 1 Cor 3:14,15.

That's what your "theory" seems to ignore.
In Him = Eternal Life
In Him then cast out of Him = Gathered up and thrown into the fire.
JLB

The only theory on this thread is the one that eternal life is revocable, or that one can be "cast out of Christ", when Eph 1;13 and 14 very clearly teach that WHEN one believes, they ARE SEALED with the Holy Spirit, for the day of redemption.

So, in order to believe your theories, you must show that Eph 1:13 and 14 don't teach eternal security by showing what they do teach, and what 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 teach about fire causing loss and still be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Bible is so clear on whether or not you can lose eternal life it's amazing to me that OSAS even exists in the church:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

But I guess if the church can get it so wrong about tithing then it should be no surprise that they can't see the plain words of scripture concerning not staying in Christ and as a result losing of eternal life. Not fellowship....it's plainly talking about eternal life being lost. And John is speaking to saved people, not people who have never believed yet (1 John 2:20-21,27 NASB).

 

[WIP]

I think that's about enough accusations about being ignored. These are totally unfounded accusations and therefore it is not only rude and offensive it is a sin to do this. Please review ToS 2.4.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Bible is so clear on whether or not you can lose eternal life it's amazing to me that OSAS even exists in the church:

The teaching exists because it's found in the Bible, and quite clearly.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

The first 5 points teach eternal security. And do so clearly. The 6th point is just icing on the cake.

However, if the passages in the first 5 points teach something else, I'd be interested to know what they do teach.

One thing I know; they teach something. I believe they are very clear about eternal security and cannot imagine what else they could be teaching.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

The first 5 points teach eternal security. And do so clearly. The 6th point is just icing on the cake.

All of which make John a liar in 1 & 2 John if we interpret these six points according to your doctrine.
Conversely, my doctrine does not make Paul and the other things John wrote a lie by interpreting 1 & 2 John for what they so plainly and clearly teach.

However, if the passages in the first 5 points teach something else, I'd be interested to know what they do teach.

One thing I know; they teach something. I believe they are very clear about eternal security and cannot imagine what else they could be teaching.

Some of these passages are indeed talking about eternal security. But they apply to believers, not ex-believers.
See, my doctrine preserves the passages you cite, not contradicts them by pointing out that they are entirely true, but only for those who continue in the faith, not depart from it. But your doctrine contradicts the passages I cite:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

When you interpret the passages you cite to mean a believer can stop believing in Christ and they still have eternal life that exactly nullifies the passages above under all circumstances. But when I interpret the passages above for what they plainly and clearly say that does not nullify the passages you cite. It merely qualifies them as only applying to those who continue to believe, not to those who stop believing.

What you have to do is take the passages I quoted above and show us that John is not saying that the believer who no longer has what he heard in the beginning abiding in him (you know, that holding fast thing) loses eternal life. Simply restating your passages and your interpretation of those passages does not do that because the passages above are the straight-forward, compelling, plain words that don't need interpretation. You have to discredit the more compelling evidence before your less compelling evidence can be shown to be true.

Keep these truths in mind, found right in 1 John, before you attempt to show that John did not mean a believer loses eternal life if they stop believing: 1) He's addressing believers, not those who never believed. 2) He's talking about eternal life, not fellowship and it's benefits. So, to save you the time of going there, it will be impossible to use these common arguments to take away the plain truth of what John says that you can lose eternal life by not believing anymore. You'll have to make John's plain words mean something else using another argument.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

The first 5 points teach eternal security. And do so clearly. The 6th point is just icing on the cake."

All of which make John a liar in 1 & 2 John if we interpret these six points according to your doctrine.

None of which make John a liar.

However, it seems you missed what I posted just after the only phrase in my post that you quoted:
"However, if the passages in the first 5 points teach something else, I'd be interested to know what they do teach.

One thing I know; they teach something. I believe they are very clear about eternal security and cannot imagine what else they could be teaching."

Do you have any idea what those 5 passages are teaching? Just saying they don't teach eternal security isn't enough. If one can confidently make such a statement, they should be able to explain what they do teach.

Conversely, my doctrine does not make Paul and the other things John wrote a lie by interpreting 1 & 2 John for what they so plainly and clearly teach.

The 5 passages I posted "so plainly and clearly teach" eternal security that it's real interesting that someone would not deal with them and just keep defaulting to other passages that they think "so plainly and clearly teach" loss of salvation.

I have dealt with all those verses and explained what they DO teach. I wish someone would return the favor and explain to me what the 5 passages I quoted are teaching.

Some of these passages are indeed talking about eternal security. But they apply to believers, not ex-believers.

That hasn't been proven at all. In fact, because it is to believers, it's clear that those who have believed cannot lose salvation. And, no one has yet shown from Scripture the assumption that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

See, my doctrine preserves the passages you cite, not contradicts them by pointing out that they are entirely true, but only for those who continue in the faith, not depart from it.

No, your assumptions assault the passages I quoted by INSERTING the opinion and assumption that one must "continue in the faith" in order to stay saved.

In fact, some of my passages addresses that very issue and STILL comes up with eternal security. Esp point 5.

But your doctrine contradicts the passages I cite:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

When you interpret the passages you cite to mean a believer can stop believing in Christ and they still have eternal life that exactly nullifies the passages above under all circumstances. But when I interpret the passages above for what they plainly and clearly say that does not nullify the passages you cite. It merely qualifies them as only applying to those who continue to believe, not to those who stop believing.

The error is to ASSUME that 'abiding' refers to relationship, when it refers to fellowship.

And you've already shown that you don't understand and accept the big difference between the 2.

Also, no one has yet shown from Scripture that the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is FOR the day of redemption, has been, or even can be, broken. All that's been done is make some side comments about physical seals, which has NO RELEVANCE to the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

What you have to do is take the passages I quoted above and show us that John is not saying that the believer who no longer has what he heard in the beginning abiding in him (you know, that holding fast thing) loses eternal life.

I've shown eternal security from the 5 passages I already quoted. And no one has shown from Scripture that anyone can be, or has been, removed from being "in Christ", or that the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is another way to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, can be, or has been broken.

Where in Scripture would one read about someone losing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? No where is where.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us FOREVER. Again, eternal security.

Simply restating your passages and your interpretation of those passages does not do that because the passages above are the straight-forward, compelling, plain words that don't need interpretation.

Then please take those passages and provide your interpretation that shows they they don't teach eternal security for everyone who has believed.

You have to discredit the more compelling evidence before your less compelling evidence can be shown to be true.

That's backward. The 5 passages are far more compelling than your assumptions. None of which have been supported from Scripture.

Keep these truths in mind, found right in 1 John, before you attempt to show that John did not mean a believer loses eternal life if they stop believing: 1) He's addressing believers, not those who never believed. 2) He's talking about eternal life, not fellowship and it's benefits. So, to save you the time of going there, it will be impossible to use these common arguments to take away the plain truth of what John says that you can lose eternal life by not believing anymore. You'll have to make John's plain words mean something else using another argument.

No where in any of John's writings does he teach that one can lose salvation for ANY REASON.

That opinion is just a mere assumption, and not from Scripture.

But 1 Thess 5 in point 5 definitely shows that lifestyle has no bearing on being with Jesus when He comes.

The onus is on those who think that salvation can be lost if one loses faith.

So, where is that taught in the Bible? I mean, "so plainly and clearly".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The onus is on those who think that salvation can be lost if one loses faith.

So, where is that taught in the Bible? I mean, "so plainly and clearly".

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

We see he's plainly talking about eternal life, not fellowship. You lose eternal life if you do not have the Son, which should be no surprise since Jesus Christ IS eternal life.

But 1 Thess 5 in point 5 definitely shows that lifestyle has no bearing on being with Jesus when He comes.

Correct.
Loss of faith in Christ is what determines if you lose eternal life. John and Paul both plainly said to believers that if you do not continue in what you heard in the beginning you lose salvation/ eternal life. Your passages can't change their plain words. Your passages are easily understood to be true in the context of the one who continues to believe, not the one who has stopped believing as you are saying. What you say is impossible to be true because it makes John and Paul liars. But my doctrine does not do that.

 

[FreeGrace]

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

Abiding is about fellowship, or loss thereof. Not relationship, which is permanent, as seen in the parable of the prodigal son. The father and son remained father and son throughout the story. The only thing that "died" and became "alive" again was fellowship between them.

9

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

Once again, abiding is about fellowship, not relationship.

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

This verse certainly does not support loss of salvation for loss of faith. We know from John 10:28 that those who have eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. A promise from Jesus.

Now, to support your assumptions, where is any verse that teaches that God removes eternal life from anyone, or that anyone has, or can lose it for any reason??

That's the only way to support your theories.

We see he's plainly talking about eternal life, not fellowship.

Please explain how "abiding" relates to eternal life rather than fellowship.

You lose eternal life if you do not have the Son, which should be no surprise since Jesus Christ IS eternal life.

No, John was saying that those who have never believed do not have the Son.

But, once again, where is any verse that teaches that eternal life can be lost, or that those who have been sealed "in Christ" can be, or have been, unsealed and the Holy Spirit left them in the NT.

Loss of faith in Christ

is what determines if you lose eternal life.

The on-going problem for your theory is where that is clearly stated in Scripture. No one has ever provided any verse that teaches that loss of faith equates to loss of eternal life.

John and Paul both plainly said to believers that if you do not continue in what you heard in the beginning you lose salvation/ eternal life.

So, PLEASE quote ANY verse where that is "plainly said".

Your passages can't change their plain words.

Where are those "plain words" that you speak of so frequently? The passages I have quoted are quite plain about eternal security. Your disagreement is based only on the huge assumption that loss of faith results in loss of eternal life. So, PLEASE quote any verse that includes these "plain words".

Your passages are easily understood to be true in the context of the one who continues to believe, not the one who has stopped believing as you are saying.

This has not been proven by any means. Again, this is just an opinion, based on huge assumptons, without a shred of any Scriptural evidence. PLEASE provide any verse that plainly says what is claimed.

What you say is impossible to be true because it makes John and Paul liars. But my doctrine does not do that.

And neither has this claim been shown to be true. Remember, for any claim to be proven true, there must be EVIDENCE for it. Where is your EVIDENCE?

Stating an opinion or making assumptions is not evidence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where are those "plain words" that you speak of so frequently?
[...]
So, PLEASE quote any verse that includes these "plain words".
[...]
This has not been proven by any means. Again, this is just an opinion, based on huge assumptons, without a shred of any Scriptural evidence. PLEASE provide any verse that plainly says what is claimed.
[...]
Where is your EVIDENCE?

Here are the plain verses again:

The Bible plainly says you do not have God or Christ if you stop abiding in the teaching of Christ:

9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

And if you do not have Christ, because you do not have God, you do not have eternal life:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

These verses plainly say that when you lose God and Christ because you do not continue to abide in Christ, you do not have eternal life. Nothing there about this being about fellowship. It plainly says you lose eternal life when you don't have God and Christ. But you are telling believers they still have eternal life when they don't have God and Christ when they don't continue in the gospel of Christ.

If someone listens to you and they depart the faith thinking they are still saved, that is destroying the building of God. And Paul says the person who destroys the temple of God will himself be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB). If you don't agree that leading believers to depart the faith isn't destroying the temple of God, tell us what worse thing there is than leaving the faith that constitutes destroying the temple of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please explain how "abiding" relates to eternal life rather than fellowship.

What you need to do is explain how the plain words 'eternal life' don't really mean eternal life, but rather means only fellowship:

9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

No, John was saying that those who have never believed do not have the Son.

Not according to the context:

"12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one." (1 John 2:12-14 NASB)

It plainly says he's writing to his children in the faith warning them to stay in the faith so they won't lose God and Christ and eternal life. This is not about unbelievers who have never believed. It can't be to unbelievers because they have never been abiding in Christ for them to then stop abiding in Christ.

Remember, I told you, don't waste time using the arguments that John is not talking about eternal life, and is not talking to believers. The passage itself proves in plain words that he is talking about eternal life, not just fellowship, and that he is indeed talking to believers, not unbelievers who have never believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here are the plain verses again:
The Bible plainly says you do not have God or Christ if you stop abiding in the teaching of Christ:

9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

In v.4-6, John expresses his joy that some of her children were "walking in the truth", meaning not just knowing correct doctrine (teaching), but applying it to their lives, which is what the Father commands us. And John notes that loving God is walking in His commands.

4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another.
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

v.8 notes the "new theology" of the 'deceivers' who are false teachers, and warns against them.

Now, to v.9: If the church that John was addressing was not vigilant as he has just warned them to be, or if one or more of its members gave in to the "new theology" (of the false teachers), John states that such a person transgresses and does not abide (meno = stay in) (the doctrine) of Christ. He turns aside from the truth instead of remaining in it.

The person who does not abide in the true doctrine (as apposed to the false doctrine of the 'deceivers' of v.8) of Jesus Christ does not have God with him in his new perspective and/or lifestyle. He is out of touch with God (out of fellowship), while he who abides in the doctrine of Christ is vitally in touch with God (in fellowship).

2 Jn 9 is not about "abiding to remain saved". It's about fellowship, as just explained.

And if you do not have Christ, because you do not have God, you do not have eternal life:

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

The problem with your view is that "not abiding in Christ" does NOT mean "does not have Christ" as is being assumed.

The first phrase is key: God has given us eternal life. We know that the gifts of God are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29. And we know that eternal life is a gift of God. So it is irrevocable.

Therefore, your interpretation of 1 Jn 5:11-12 cannot mean what you think it means.

These verses plainly say that when you lose God and Christ because you do not continue to abide in Christ, you do not have eternal life. Nothing there about this being about fellowship.

I just explained why and how it is about fellowship.

When the prodigal went to a far country, he did not "have the father". They were not in fellowship.

It plainly says you lose eternal life when you don't have God and Christ.

Here is more error. It says NOTHING about losing eternal life when you don't "have God". Eternal life isn't even mentioned in 2 Jn 9 or anywhere in 2 John.

But you are telling believers they still have eternal life when they don't have God and Christ when they don't continue in the gospel of Christ.

Paul didn't write 2 Tim 2:15 for nothing. To be an approved workman for the Lord, one must "be diligent" which is by studying, in order to "rightly divide the Word of Truth".

When the context from v.4 up to 9 is considered, it should be clear that John was warning against following the 'deceivers' who have false doctrine, not the doctrine of Christ. Those believers who follow false doctrine don't "have God" in the sense that they are out of touch with God. That IS about loss of fellowship.

And the prodigal son clearly illustrates the difference between relationship and fellowship.

If someone listens to you and they depart the faith thinking they are still saved, that is destroying the building of God.

What from verse have I "destroyed the building of God"? What do you mean by "building". Also, if such a person also ignores everything else I've said about believers who do depart the faith, they get away with nothing. There are a lot of verses about God's severe discipline and punishment for such believers.

And Paul says the person who destroys the temple of God will himself be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB).

I truly wish context had more importance for your views. The previous verse defines what Paul meant by "temple"; your own body. So v.17 is speaking about destroying your own temple by various sins. Such people will be destroyed by God, which is a direct reference to the sin unto death (1 Jn 5:16, 1 Cor 11:30).

If you don't agree that leading believers to depart the faith isn't destroying the temple of God, tell us what worse thing there is than leaving the faith that constitutes destroying the temple of God.

You've misunderstand the context and verse, so I guess there isn't any way to respond to this.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please explain how "abiding" relates to eternal life rather than fellowship."

What you need to do is explain how...

Since you're either unwilling or unable to explain what I requested, why should I explain any more? I've been explaining EVERYTHING as opposed to your just quoting verses that are being misunderstood.

the plain words 'eternal life' don't really mean eternal life, but rather means only fellowship:

9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

See previous post for a FULL EXPLANATION of both verses. (post 776)

Remember, I told you, don't waste time using the arguments that John is not talking about eternal life, and is not talking to believers.

I haven't done that.

The passage itself proves in plain words that he is talking about eternal life, not just fellowship, and that he is indeed talking to believers, not unbelievers who have never believed.

Since you've quoted 2 verses from different epistles, please keep that straight. In 2 Jn, he WASN'T even mentioning eternal life. In 1 John, his whole point was that those who have believed HAVE eternal life. Same as what Jesus taught.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see, so anti-christs are merely out of fellowship with God and Christ and retain their eternal life:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:18-24 NASB italics in original)

Noted.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see, so anti-christs are merely out of fellowship with God and Christ and retain their eternal life:

While that seems to really bug some people, the bigger reality is that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

btw, how many people are there who have really trusted in Christ as Savior and then became "anti-christs"? If there are any, I'm sure there can't be that many.

But the real question is why some won't accept the fact that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, when the Bible clearly indicates that it is?

My doctrines are based what the Bible says.

The Bible says: the gifts of God are irrevocable.
The Bible says: eternal life is a gift of God.

The Bible NEVER says that one can lose eternal life.

If there WERE any verses, then the Bible is contradictory, and we all might as well just go home.

Fortunately, there aren't any such verses.

The verses you've cobbled together do not say what your claim is. And I've explained that.