What is your purpose?

[Bazz1040]

its that not the same when are worshipped?
you say that we are worshiped by the enemies of God.who repent. is that not the same

and paul and silas were called Gods and refused that title by the greeks.

Why do so many of us quote the Bible out of the context of the subject? The Greeks were saying that Paul was one of their gods.....he was not so he corrected them and let them know that he was a man like them.

honour isnt worship as that is where you are confused. if so then why did you just say that the lord doesnt mind us bowing to kings? as i have said if we are worshipped like God is by us, then he would be jealous as only gets the full adoration.

kings recieve honour but not the place of the most high. that is what i'm confused about this thread.

you claim we are worshipped ,like the place of the father when in english it should be stated that we are honored and exalted by God.

the later being biblical.

that even has happened ie joseph! humbled by his brethren and sold into slavery, elevated to second only to pharoah and men bowed to him.

yet God put him there! but no man called joseph a god or his creator. they just respected his position in the egyptain kingdom.


is that what you are saying?

Words in the Old Testament for worship of God, man and even false gods.


Exodus 34:14 (KJV)
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

2 Samuel 16:4 (KJV)
4 Then said the king to Ziba, Behold, thine are all that pertained unto Mephibosheth. And Ziba said, I humbly beseech thee that I may find grace in thy sight, my lord, O king.

Worship & Humbly
Hebrew Word: ‏שָׁחָה‎
Transliteration: shāḥâ
Phonetic Pronunciation: shaw-khaw'
Root: a primitive root
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2360
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Worship (To)



a primitive root; to depress, i.e. prostrate (especially reflexive in homage to royalty or God) :- bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

Daniel 2:46 (KJV)
46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

Worshipped
Hebrew Word: ‏סְגִד‎
Transliteration: segid
Phonetic Pronunciation: seg-eed'
Root: corresponding to <H5456>
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2884
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: None


(Chaldee); corresponding to <H5456>(cagad) :- worship.

— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

2884 ‏סְגִד‎ (segid) <H5457>worship, pay homage. Used of God, idols, and men. Used like the Hebrew śdgad.
— Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament

 

[Bazz1040]

Not taught in Church

The responses from many shows that many have never done much of any study not only the subject of worship and who can be worshiped, but also what is our destiny. It also shows that these things are not or have not been adequately addressed in Church. We just assume that what we believe is what the Bible says.<O:p</O:p

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Not taught in Church

The responses from many shows that many have never done much of any study not only the subject of worship and who can be worshiped, but also what is our destiny. It also shows that these things are not or have not been adequately addressed in Church. We just assume that what we believe is what the Bible says.<o>:p</o>:p

In keeping with the whole of the word of God, we can safely say that any worship that is to be given must be to God alone. Any that may be directed at righteous men is to be redirected to God, as demonstrated in scriptures.

Misapplying one verse of scripture does not negate all other scripture that speaks the contrary. Obviously the alternate meanings for the word, 'worship' are the appropriate meanings to apply here.

Then check the heart. Is it maybe true that one desires worship? God can check that.

 

[jasoncran]

if i take bazz positions on the word worship. Then i guess we can worship the world leaders by when we call then by titiles(honoring)

ie, standing when a judge enters the court room
when the POTUS enters a room to give a speech.
my commanding officer is saluted by me or any superior officer to him or officer, and warrant


those by that definition of bazz are worship, and you cant say that we cant do that to men when Paul did just that even when on trial.

its has to be taken in context.respect isnt the same as the worship of the father.

otherwise i would be in sin as i have just given sinners what only God can have.

 

[Bazz1040]

Re: Not taught in Church

In keeping with the whole of the word of God, we can safely say that any worship that is to be given must be to God alone. Any that may be directed at righteous men is to be redirected to God, as demonstrated in scriptures.

Misapplying one verse of scripture does not negate all other scripture that speaks the contrary. Obviously the alternate meanings for the word, 'worship' are the appropriate meanings to apply here.

Then check the heart. Is it maybe true that one desires worship? God can check that.

You keep repeating yourself but Jesus' word is very clear that it is not only God will be worshiped, but the saints will be also. For you use the word misapply is like saying that God the Father is the only one that is father, and that it is a misapplication to call one’s biological father, father. Sure God is the perfect Father, but being perfect is not a qualification for being a father or to be called a father. It is similar with the word worship…..God is worshiped because of His faithfulness, authority, His love and so much more. And we too can through His Spirit express those qualities as will.

We have seen that the same word for worship that is use towards God is the same word that is used for human kings, and even people that are not kings. I will even go as far as saying this; I have not seen a scripture where God said that a human being should not be worshiped and will never be, but He does say that one should not worship idols/false gods.

I believe when one understands what a human being really is, where we came from and what our purpose is, you would see that all human beings have what an assistant pastor called, God material in them. I am not talking about the body, but the spirit in human beings. The breath of life that God imparted to Adam came from God Himself. This is what give human beings value to God, and why we are in His image. Since all human beings have something of God in them it is no wonder why all human beings are to be respected and respect each other regardless of their status in life.

I realize that some of the things that I have said are strange and may even come across as blaspheming, but too many Christians don’t believe that they can understand the Bible without the pastor, and believe whatever the pastor says or the Church. A Church can be and is wrong in some of what it teaches. But the same way that God revels things to people of old, He can do so to you personally today, as long as we believe, and study His word with an opened mind. You can have a better understanding of the scriptures than the pastor or even the Church.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Not taught in Church

You keep repeating yourself but Jesus' word is very clear that it is not only God will be worshiped, but the saints will be also. For you use the word misapply is like saying that God the Father is the only one that is father, and that it is a misapplication to call one’s biological father, father. Sure God is the perfect Father, but being perfect is not a qualification for being a father or to be called a father. It is similar with the word worship…..God is worshiped because of His faithfulness, authority, His love and so much more. And we too can through His Spirit express those qualities as will.

We have seen that the same word for worship that is use towards God is the same word that is used for human kings, and even people that are not kings. I will even go as far as saying this; I have not seen a scripture where God said that a human being should not be worshiped and will never be, but He does say that one should not worship idols/false gods.

I believe when one understands what a human being really is, where we came from and what our purpose is, you would see that all human beings have what an assistant pastor called, God material in them. I am not talking about the body, but the spirit in human beings. The breath of life that God imparted to Adam came from God Himself. This is what give human beings value to God, and why we are in His image. Since all human beings have something of God in them it is no wonder why all human beings are to be respected and respect each other regardless of their status in life.

I realize that some of the things that I have said are strange and may even come across as blaspheming, but too many Christians don’t believe that they can understand the Bible without the pastor. The same way that God revels things to people of old, He can do so to you personally today, as long as we believe, and study His word with an opened mind.

And who, pray tell, are going to worship the saints when all that is in the Kingdom eventually (after the Millennium) will be saints and celestial beings?

Sorry, but only God Himself, the Most High God, is worthy of all praise and adoration from all who live.

Man, even when elevated to his righteous and glorious place along with Jesus Christ, will still be awestruck by who God is and will worship Him alone....just as Jesus the Son does.

Scripture does not say otherwise. The word for worship that you are sure means 'worship' only...doesn't. Due to the entire volume of scripture and what it says about who is deserving of worship, we can use common sense (you know--the kind that Holy Spirit bestows upon us?) and deduce that sinners will be bowing in recognition to the fact that we are the righteous ones of God: "They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love." Revelation 3:9b NLT



Once again:

G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship.

 

[Bazz1040]

Re: Not taught in Church

And who, pray tell, are going to worship the saints when all that is in the Kingdom eventually (after the Millennium) will be saints and celestial beings?

You live in a very small box and do not want to get out of it, which you were placed in, so you are not able to handle the answer to that question (I answered it, but it went over your head). When you are able to recieve the answer it will be given to you.

 

[Alabaster]

You live in a very small box and do not want to get out of it, which you were placed in, so you are not able to handle the answer to that question (I answered it, but it went over your head). When you are able to recieve the answer it will be given to you.

I am not in any box, thanks!


The word of God you use tells us only that certain wicked people will come and bow before the saints in recognition of their righteous state. Period. I am sure that will ultimately come at the Great White Throne Judgment, where the wicked will be judged and will drop to their knees in recognition of Jesus Christ as Lord and King over all.
However, earlier, at the Millennial Reign, the nations will recognize our governing authority in Christ over them, and they will come to respect it, as Christ reigns with His rod of iron over them. There is no mention of worship, except you insert that idea yourself.

Recognition! Not worship. I suppose that ball flew over your head long ago.


Why have you hijacked the purpose of this thread? You have even applied a new title! Why don't you start your own thread on this stray topic?

 

[Elijah674]

Angels have no hope of attaining to what we will become.....we will be like Jesus but angles are not.<O:p</O:p



<O:p</O:p

Angels are not told that they will inherit all things or that they will rule with Jesus either, but we will. Angels are servants but we are children of God, born through and by the Holy Spirit.<O:p</O:p



Jesus said He will make our enemy come and worship at our feet and I am ok with that, because it means that they will repent.<O:p</O:p

I think that you might find a difference in Judas, Achan, & the Rev. 3:9 ones type of worship or acknowledgement, having nothing to do with Godly Sorrow or True Repentance!

Also like King Saul with Samuel. 1 Sam. 15:23-28 is FACT! The wicked will all admit their guilt before they are to be OBLITERATED. Yet, they come up in their second resurrection the same way that they went into their first death, to die again in their Fatal Second DEATH! Sorrowful? perhaps? but just because the got caught, so to speak, but not in Godly Repentance! Obad. 1:16

--Elijah

 

[Bazz1040]

I think that you might find a difference in Judas, Achan, & the Rev. 3:9 ones type of worship or acknowledgement, having nothing to do with Godly Sorrow or True Repentance!

Judas was unconverted when he betrayed Jesus and if your remember he was not the only one that did…..they are all forgiven, including Judas.<O:p</O:p

Also like King Saul with Samuel. 1 Sam. 15:23-28 is FACT! The wicked will all admit their guilt before they are to be OBLITERATED. Yet, they come up in their second resurrection the same way that they went into their first death, to die again in their Fatal SecondDEATH! Sorrowful? perhaps? but just because the got caught, so to speak, but not in Godly Repentance! Obad. 1:16

--Elijah

But not before they have been given a chance to accept God's gift. And I believe that only the very few will reject God. We don't read of uncountable numbers of people being cast into Hell. <O:p</O:p

 

[jasoncran]

Judas is the only person the bible calls the son of perdition and also says it was better that he wasn't born.

is that something the lord says of his own?

 

[Bazz1040]

Judas is the only person the bible calls the son of perdition and also says it was better that he wasn't born.

is that something the lord says of his own?

But that does not mean that he is lost......is betraying Jesus an unpardonable sin? The Jews as a whole betrayed Jesus, a Jew like themselves, over to the Romans. Did not Jesus forgive the Jews for what they did to Him? So how would Jesus not forgive Judas? The fact that Judas killed himself does not prevent God from forgiving him or anyone else that died before Jesus was crucified.<O:p</O:p

 

[jasoncran]

one might think the apostles wouldnt quote this?

let him his bishopprick another man take.

and also this acts 1:25

" that he might take part of this ministry and apostleship. from which Judas by transgession fell, that he might go to his own reward"

hmm i dont think he was saved as didnt Jesus forgive Peter and restored him.

we dont refer to the former apostle paul since hes long since dead but still as the apostle Paul.

and why then did jesus it had not better that the son of perdition(hell) not be born?

hardly something that you would say about one of your own before the fall, and also what off peter he didnt say to him even when fell and repented?

peter messed up a lot.

 

[Bazz1040]

one might think the apostles wouldnt quote this?

let him his bishopprick another man take.

and also this acts 1:25

" that he might take part of this ministry and apostleship. from which Judas by transgession fell, that he might go to his own reward"

hmm i dont think he was saved as didnt Jesus forgive Peter and restored him.

we dont refer to the former apostle paul since hes long since dead but still as the apostle Paul.

and why then did jesus it had not better that the son of perdition(hell) not be born?

hardly something that you would say about one of your own before the fall, and also what off peter he didnt say to him even when fell and repented?

peter messed up a lot.

The subject in that verse is not Judas, but one of the two men who God would chose to take the place or spot of Judas.

Acts 1:24-25 (KJV)
<SUP>24 </SUP>And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
<SUP>25 </SUP>That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.



<!--EndFragment-->
Place:
Greek Word: τόπος
Transliteration: topos
Phonetic Pronunciation: top'-os
Root: apparently a primary word
Cross Reference: TDNT - 8:187,1184
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Opportunity, Part, Place, Room

apparently a primary word; a spot (genitive in space, but limited by occupancy; whereas <G5561>(chora) is a larger but particular locality), i.e. location (as a position, home, tract, etc.); figurative condition, opportunity; specially a scabbard :- coast, licence, place, × plain, quarter, + rock, room, where.

— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

 

[Elijah674]

Judas was unconverted when he betrayed Jesus and if your remember he was not the only one that did…..they are all forgiven, including Judas.<O:p</O:p



But not before they have been given a chance to accept God's gift. And I believe that only the very few will reject God. We don't read of uncountable numbers of people being cast into Hell. <O:p</O:p

??? Judas went out & hung himself & the O.T. verse was prophesied!

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

really?who fell by transgression first?
judas had to be replaced or did he not? if not why then did they say that?

who fell by transgression?

and it clearly states this: in kjv english
16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.



and place can his reward as what he did. sin.

so we can sin and get the reward of heaven?

think about he didnt repent as he didnt say this that he was sorry for his sins and do what peter did. peter wept and when he saw the lord he did repent as the lord asked him lovest thou me over these, thrice

he live to do that.

Godly sorrow.

judas hung himself for instead of finding the apostles and asking them to pray for him or also praying surely he know of the prophecy.

can i say for sure? most likely not and since when did any of the apostle fall from the apostleship from their sin?

peter sinned in denying the lord and yet no verse is mentioned

whjy then is there a prophecy on this if the lord did save him?

why would he say its better for him not to be then to betray the son?

did the lord hate him?no
but then why did the prophet say that and the lord say one of you has a devil. and the gospels say that was judas isachariot as he betrayed him?

so what was so unforgivable that he was said its best not to have been born then betray the son.

thats not so easily blown off. he means yup i wish you were never born since you betrayed my trust!

if judas repented why did he hang himself?

 

[Bazz1040]

??? Judas went out & hung himself & the O.T. verse was prophesied!

--Elijah

I know that. But that does not mean that Judas was not forgiven........Jesus paid the price for the sins of all people....none excluded.<O:p</O:p

 

[Bazz1040]

really?who fell by transgression first?
judas had to be replaced or did he not? if not why then did they say that?

who fell by transgression?

and it clearly states this: in kjv english
16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.



and place can his reward as what he did. sin.

so we can sin and get the reward of heaven?

think about he didnt repent as he didnt say this that he was sorry for his sins and do what peter did. peter wept and when he saw the lord he did repent as the lord asked him lovest thou me over these, thrice

he live to do that.

Godly sorrow.

judas hung himself for instead of finding the apostles and asking them to pray for him or also praying surely he know of the prophecy.

can i say for sure? most likely not and since when did any of the apostle fall from the apostleship from their sin?

peter sinned in denying the lord and yet no verse is mentioned

whjy then is there a prophecy on this if the lord did save him?

why would he say its better for him not to be then to betray the son?

did the lord hate him?no
but then why did the prophet say that and the lord say one of you has a devil. and the gospels say that was judas isachariot as he betrayed him?

so what was so unforgivable that he was said its best not to have been born then betray the son.

thats not so easily blown off. he means yup i wish you were never born since you betrayed my trust!

if judas repented why did he hang himself?

You know what our problem is? Some of us don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice covers all people.....we claim we believe, but at the same time we make unjust judgment of others concerning their fate. <O:p</O:p

 

[Alabaster]

You know what our problem is? Some of us don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice covers all people.....we claim we believe, but at the same time we make unjust judgment of others concerning their fate. <o>:p</o>:p

No, the problem is that some of you are rejecting the fact that we must AVAIL ourselves of the gift of salvation there for us all. If we don't receive it, we will not have it.

It is righteous discernment that reveals to us that people are missing the mark...not unjust judgment.

 

[jasoncran]

bazz, theres no evidence in the recorded bible that says he repented of his sins only that judas took his life and that was prophecied.

sure what he did was forgivable, but then why did the lord call it like this.
woe to whom the the son of man is betrayed?

woe implies judgment, and why then does the bible say he fell? he had to be there and then choose to walk way. if he repented its unlikely that the bible would say that by transgession he fell but rather that he fell and repented and died.

james was killed(no apostle replaced that we know of).