What No Futurist Believes

[jasoncran]

Good to see you nj believer.

 

[NJBeliever]

Good to see you nj believer.

Thanks Jason! Good to see you too. Peace and Grace from The Lord our God. I've been busy working on my wedding plans (The Lord blessed me and I got married this past November), so I was offline for a few months getting things together. But now....I'm back. lol.

 

[jasoncran]

Thanks Jason! Good to see you too. Peace and Grace from The Lord our God. I've been busy working on my wedding plans (The Lord blessed me and I got married this past November), so I was offline for a few months getting things together. But now....I'm back. lol.

i was wondering what happened to you. you left before the site moved to vb format if i recall.
anyway welcome back.

 

[NJBeliever]

i was wondering what happened to you. you left before the site moved to vb format if i recall.
anyway welcome back.

Yep. Today's my first day seeing the site with the new format. And thanks again.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

There are two events. One is the rapture of the Church and the other is the great harvest of the wicked and righteous who remain at the end of Tribulation when the Lord returns bodily to earth with His Church, the Bride. Every eye at that time will see Him coming.

Mt 13;38-39
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


You fail to comprehend what Jesus said.
The good seed is the children of the kingdom and the tares are are the children of the wicked one.Jesus said let both grow together untill the harvest ,then they would be seperated.

You claim that Jesus himself will gather you before the harvest and that he will not allow you to grow with the tares till the harvest.You must not be a child of the kingdom or you would have to wait till the harvest,or you are claiming Jesus is wrong.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Resurrection 2 occurs just before the Millenial Reign:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

My goodness how have you changed the word of God to fit you veiw?
What you call the second ressurection ,the scripture calls the first ressurection.

Rev 20;6
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


Please quit decieving people.The word of God says that is the first ressurection,not the second.
You will not precede them.They are raised first.Then those who are left shall be caught up.

 

[Hitch]

The problem is that the text that was quoted of Jesus Christ was incorrectly interpreted. Jesus is not describing the rapture when He details HIS ANGELS gathering people.

As for John 6 -- Again, it requires proper interpretation. Jesus has different messages for THE JEWS and he GENTILES when it comes to the end times (i.e., Him saying "the Jews require a sign.."). There are three resurrections in the end times. The rapture precedes the Biblical Day of The Lord/70th Week

Revelation 7: 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Resurrection 2 occurs just before the Millenial Reign:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This will the saints of the Great Tribulation and specifically, the 1/3 remnant of Israel. These are the Jews who will be raised in the last day. You have to be very careful with whom is being addressed by Jesus in Scripture:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Is this a general message to the world? Was he speaking to the Babylonians? No. This is a specific message to the Jews.

The3rd resurrection is at the end of the 1000 years.

There are raptured saints who do not have to endure and there are tribulation saints. Jesus addresses both in the Gospels.

Utter nonsense , however I invite you to support your position from anything Jesus is recorded to have said.

But thanx for proving my point, you dont believe the plain words of
Jesus Christ.

 

[NJBeliever]

My goodness how have you changed the word of God to fit you veiw?
What you call the second ressurection ,the scripture calls the first ressurection.

Rev 20;6
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


Please quit decieving people.The word of God says that is the first ressurection,not the second.
You will not precede them.They are raised first.Then those who are left shall be caught up.

The reason why Paul does not call the "catching up" the "resurrection" is because he was addressing living people. So it would no be a resurrection. He specifically says not all of us will sleep. So if you are alive at the time of the rapture, you are not resurrected. So the naming of the "First Resurrection" in Revelation is accurate. Obviously this is not the first resurrection of humans ever. It's just a title.

I do believe the dead in Christ will be raised first at the rapture. But the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Then there is a gathering of the saints at the end of the Day of The Lord and finally a resurrection of unbelievers.

I totally understand you and Hitch disagreeing so passionately. The pre-trib model is definitely flawed. It does not stand up to Biblical scrutiny. But neither does the post-trib model or mid-trib model. They are all wrong in certain respects which is why this debate just keeps going on and on and on on....

 

[NJBeliever]

Utter nonsense , however I invite you to support your position from anything Jesus is recorded to have said.

But thanx for proving my point, you dont believe the plain words of
Jesus Christ.

You are fully entitled to think what you will. If you have any points of substance to make, I'm all ears.

 

[Hitch]

The reason why Paul does not call the "catching up" the "resurrection" is because he was addressing living people. So it would no be a resurrection. He specifically says not all of us will sleep. So if you are alive at the time of the rapture, you are not resurrected. So the naming of the "First Resurrection" in Revelation is accurate. Obviously this is not the first resurrection of humans ever. It's just a title.

I do believe the dead in Christ will be raised first at the rapture. But the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Then there is a gathering of the saints at the end of the Day of The Lord and finally a resurrection of unbelievers.

I totally understand you and Hitch disagreeing so passionately. The pre-trib model is definitely flawed. It does not stand up to Biblical scrutiny. But neither does the post-trib model or mid-trib model. They are all wrong in certain respects which is why this debate just keeps going on and on and on on....

The model that stands up is in the OP. In plain language beyond 'interpretation' and mischief and there is nothing wrong with what Jesus actually said. repeated below from the AS;

8 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

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39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven?
43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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[Alabaster]

This is a good example; The text of the OP quotes Jesus Christ, a first century bible teacher of some report. Allie's assertion above, ignores the text and offers no scripture citation, nothing but standard DF dogma.

Its obvious the text of John 6 was avoided because it doesnt fit the system Allie outlines.

Jesus is not a Bible teacher of some report. He is the Word of God, the Logos.

What is in John 6 that is an avoidance?

John 6 quotes Jesus saying He will raise up the believer on the last day. The Rapture is the last day of this age, where the dead in Christ are raised, and Judgment Day is the last day for all the wicked and those who received salvation since the Rapture who will be raised to stand before the Just judge.

The passage speaks to the general truth, without a specific point about how or when, that Jesus will be there at the end, seeing to the completion of all things.

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster, Do you understand the above statement to coincide with Matthew 13:30?

Yes, and Matthew 13:40; 49-50.

 

[Hitch]

Jesus is not a Bible teacher of some report. He is the Word of God, the Logos.

Odd then you dont care for what he has to say

What is in John 6 that is an avoidance?

The plain ,normal grammatical meaning of the term ,last day

John 6 quotes Jesus saying He will raise up the believer on the last day. The Rapture is the last day of this age,

Jesus said last day without qualification, and in accordance with your dispensational doctrine JESUS niether lived nor spoke in the church age

where the dead in Christ are raised, and Judgment Day is the last day for all the wicked and those who received salvation since the Rapture who will be raised to stand before the Just judge.

The passage speaks to the general truth, without a specific point about how or when, that Jesus will be there at the end, seeing to the completion of all things.

LOL Repeating four times in a row that the resurrection is at the last day is about as plain and specific and you can get.

 

[Alabaster]

The problem is that the text that was quoted of Jesus Christ was incorrectly interpreted. Jesus is not describing the rapture when He details HIS ANGELS gathering people.

As for John 6 -- Again, it requires proper interpretation. Jesus has different messages for THE JEWS and he GENTILES when it comes to the end times (i.e., Him saying "the Jews require a sign.."). There are three resurrections in the end times. The rapture precedes the Biblical Day of The Lord/70th Week

Revelation 7: 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Resurrection 2 occurs just before the Millenial Reign:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This will the saints of the Great Tribulation and specifically, the 1/3 remnant of Israel. These are the Jews who will be raised in the last day. You have to be very careful with whom is being addressed by Jesus in Scripture:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Is this a general message to the world? Was he speaking to the Babylonians? No. This is a specific message to the Jews.

The3rd resurrection is at the end of the 1000 years.

There are raptured saints who do not have to endure and there are tribulation saints. Jesus addresses both in the Gospels.

 

[Alabaster]

Mt 13;38-39
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


You fail to comprehend what Jesus said.

I understand what Jesus is saying, you mean.

The good seed is the children of the kingdom and the tares are are the children of the wicked one.Jesus said let both grow together untill the harvest ,then they would be seperated.

You claim that Jesus himself will gather you before the harvest and that he will not allow you to grow with the tares till the harvest.You must not be a child of the kingdom or you would have to wait till the harvest,or you are claiming Jesus is wrong.

So, you do not believe in the Rapture of the Church? If you do, is it that you do not believe that people will be saved out of the Tribulation?

As a child of the Kingdom, I know I will be raised at the Rapture, as part of the Bride, to be taken by the Bridegroom to the wedding, and return with Him for the great harvest and to establish His earthly rule, where many millions will come to salvation over that thousand years, and many will not. But we will help preside over, or witness that final Judgment Day.

 

[Hitch]

I understand what Jesus is saying, you mean.



So, you do noit belief in the Rapture of the Church? If you do, is it that you do not believe that people will be saved out of the Tribulation?

As a child of the Kingdom, I know I will be raised at the Rapture, as part of the Bride, to be taken by the Bridegroom to the wedding, and return with Him for the great harvest and to establish His earthly rule, where many millions will come to salvation over that thousand years, and many will not. But we will help preside over, or witness that final Judgment Day.

Another proof for the OP. Allie is certain the resurrection will not take place on the last day, despite reading direct quotes from Jesus Christ to the contrary.

 

[Alabaster]

The plain ,normal grammatical meaning of the term ,last day Jesus said last day without qualification, and in accordance with your dispensational doctrine JESUS niether lived nor spoke in the church age LOL Repeating four times in a row that the resurrection is at the last day is about as plain and specific and you can get.

Completion of all things occurs at the Judgment Day. I am sure that is what Jesus was referring to.

There is the Rapture, which includes the raising of all the dead in Christ, but He wasn't referring to that specific event. He was speaking to the second death--the second event where all the remaining dead will resurrect to stand before the Great White Throne.

The Church doesn't stand before that throne. We will already be immortal at that point and be witnesses to Judgment.

 

[Alabaster]

Another proof for the OP. Allie is certain the resurrection will not take place on the last day, despite reading direct quotes from Jesus Christ to the contrary.

Study and take in the whole counsel of God, rather than a few verses from one small portion of scripture. There is a wider scope to end things. There are generalities and then there are specifics.

There most definitely is a 'last day' resurrection. The Church of Jesus Christ will witness it.

 

[Hitch]

Study and take in the whole counsel of God, rather than a few verses from one small portion of scripture.[didnt you just say JESUS is the word of God?

There is a wider scope to end things. There are generalities and then there are specifics.

Like last day?

There most definitely is a 'last day' resurrection. The Church of Jesus Christ will witness it.

Why the double talk Allie? Cults use plain terms with special inhouse only definitions, there no room for that kind of thing in the church. There has to be a lot better reason than your assertions to alter scripture. Especially plain straight forward quotes from Jesus Christ himself. You have already and often claimed there will be all kinds of historical event after the resurrection. You cant go back now and have a private interpretation and define the terms to suit your needs.

I know lets start with a list of all the biblical writers of the NT that you think would contradict Jesus and place time and history after the last day.

 

[Hitch]

It might pay you to look for yourself at this term and compare how it used in scripture. Its very rarely used.