Bible Study What were they able to accomplish?

[th1b.taylor]

I have absolutely no idea how big the original city and tower of Babel was, nor is it of any real great importance to me. My point was if they were going to make a name for themselves and build a tower that reached to the heavens, then the standard to measure such a structure would be the one city that we are told does reach into the heavens above and the earth beneath.

So, you're saying you just poped a number out there and it has nothing to do with a number that was not, to my knowledge, knowable until well after the death of Jesus on the cross?

 

[Sinthesis]

The height was also measured, and not just the four sides. It could be the length, breath, and height together measured 12000 furlongs, or each dimension was of 12000 furlongs. I go with the latter.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The height was also measured, and not just the four sides. It could be the length, breath, and height together measured 12000 furlongs, or each dimension was of 12000 furlongs. I go with the latter.

I went back, re-read and that is my understanding also but either way, without God to bless, that could not be the measure for the tower, placing this idea into the realm of extra-biblical.

 

[ezrider]

Okay, My error but I have heard it taught that the Angel measured one side, all that is required for it is foursquare or if the southern or the northern borders were to sit one corner in downtown Houston and go westward the next corner would fall inside LA, Calif, still not 375 miles and to be honest, even with our modern ovens and the ability, they did not have, to collect High Grade Clay, without trucks, trains, highways, tracks, tressels and on and on, it could not happen and remember, God was not in this.

I went back, re-read and that is my understanding also but either way, without God to bless, that could not be the measure for the tower, placing this idea into the realm of extra-biblical.

You have made this statement twice now, that God was not in this and without God to bless then how? Those two comments seem to stand contrary to the premise of this story and the OP. The people had come together as one to build a city and a tower that would reach to the heavens. Now according to the story of the tower of babel, If they had succeeded, then there would have been nothing held back that they could not have done, what ever their imagination beheld.

Why would God scatter them abroad and confound their languages if they required God's blessing to build it? Why were their languages changed? What was the one language that that spoke? Was it an angelic language?

There are more examples though, for a people were chosen who did built a city and a tower that reached to the heavens, and I think those dimensions are somewhere in the scriptures. But that city would be Jerusalem, and the tower would be the temple. For it was in the temple that the priest came before the glory of the Lord from heaven. But that city and temple have been destroyed as well and the peoples were scattered abroad, twice now.

.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

I have often wondered about this passage of Scripture in light of what man has been able to accomplish in the last 100 years. The Babel Builders erected a tall building and tower. Modern Man has walked on the moon as well as other accomplishments where they can peer into outer space with their massive telescopes.

I have also wondered what these Babel Builders really had in mind if God had left them alone....What do you think that God meant when He said, "nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them."

Here's my guess; they were exercising their independence from their Almighty Creator and were in defiance of His orders to populate the earth. They wanted to stay together so that they could accomplish great things without the aid of God.

It is my guess that they would eventually find a way to make it back to where the Garden of Eden was and eat of the fruit from the tree of life and therefore live forever despite God's decree that they would surely die....God had to put a stop to their thoughts and future ambitions.

Hi Chopper, You are right on the first part of your guess. Nimrod (the grandson of Ham) was the head or ruler of Babel, it was his kingdom (Gen. 10:10). Eventually after the flood the population went east and found a plain in the land of Shinar. They decided to make a tower from the bricks that they made to reach the heavens.(Gen. 11:4) ( they could never have done it, but God knew what was in their hearts in the building of the tower). According to Josephus (A Jewish historian) Nimrod was a strong and mighty man. They liked the plains of Shinar and did not want to go any where else. They determined that they, by their own mind and strength did not need God, They were quit satisfied where they were. They built the tower in case God decided to flood the earth again that they could rise above it, and that Nimrod would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers. Imagine, one mighty and adversarial man against God to influence the majority of the population. So God scattered them over the earth according to different languages. When God said, "nothing will be withheld from them which they imagined to do." (Gen. 11: 6) Was not about the modern inventions we have today, but how they imagined to corrupt the grace of God and invent ways to thwart God's rule and influence by any means. (antiquities of the Jews vol.2 book 1 chapter 6) That is the reason God called Abraham out of the population of the world (Gen. Chapter 12 ; Heb.11: 8-16). To show the benefit of serving God to an idolatress people.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[th1b.taylor]

The people had come together as one to build a city and a tower that would reach to the heavens. Now according to the story of the tower of babel, If they had succeeded, then there would have been nothing held back that they could not have done, what ever their imagination beheld.

Why would God scatter them abroad and confound their languages if they required God's blessing to build it? Why were their languages changed? What was the one language that that spoke? Was it an angelic language?

They might have advanced as far as we ¿lucky? peoples have today, had God not pulled them apart. As much as I hate going extra-biblical in a Bible study, logic, context and a complete reading of the scriptures, just, screams God would not permit this then and following the logic and the principals established by our Father in the Bible that we will not long explore Space before God interferes.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Here's my guess; they were exercising their independence from their Almighty Creator and were in defiance of His orders to populate the earth. They wanted to stay together so that they could accomplish great things without the aid of God.

Not sure that they weren't multiplying but I agree with the rest, in that they were simply getting cocky and were dependent on themselves rather than God, and were going to do what they wanted to do.

As for what they would have done that had God concerned, that is a very interesting question.

It is my guess that they would eventually find a way to make it back to where the Garden of Eden was and eat of the fruit from the tree of life and therefore live forever despite God's decree that they would surely die....God had to put a stop to their thoughts and future ambitions.

My first thought on that is the garden was guarded as I remember it and if God guards something, no one gets in.

Maybe God just doesn't like uninvited guests.

I guess we need to know what they meant by building to "Heaven"...God's heaven? our sky? or 8 miles up? One of the 3 Heavens? The latter 2 are possible to reach with a tower and oxygen so the very thing they set out to do could have been God's concern. Not that they really could have made it to Gods heaven but for all I know Gods Heaven was much closer then, when he didn't have concern of us simply flying to it and at a time when he may have been much more hands on with his people than he is now, so I suppose it's at least possible, God was concerned they would make it to even his heaven.

 

[ezrider]

I do agree that the base of that structure had to be huge. The tower itself had to be as big as would hold the population of those building the tower. I read some history on the building of the tower and whoever did not want to engage in the work of construction, or couldn't for some reason, would not be allowed in the tower.

I have been meaning to respond to this comment Chopper, but I have been extremely busy and have not had the time to gather the scriptures that would compliment my thoughts; maybe if you decide to explore them I can reference them then.

Otherwise this is an interesting comment. Again, I have taken the city and tower of Babel in an attempt compare or contrast it to what is written of the city of New Jerusalem. When you wrote that you had read some history about the workers having to live within the city, otherwise they would not be let into the city.

That kind of reminds me of the City in Revelation 22 where those who were written in the Lamb's book of Life are in within the city, and all the rest were on the outside. Or as Jesus says within the gospels, "And the door was shut."

The city and tower of Babel was made out of fired brick and mortar, the city of New Jerusalem is spiritual house made of living stones.
The builders of the city and tower of Babel labored to make their brick and build their city. The builder of New Jerusalem is the Lord and none other. He has asked you to cease from your labors and to enter into His rest. That you present yourself a living sacrifice, that the Lord may use you as a living stone within His Holy city according to His will.

Have we ceased from our own labors so the Lord can use us as living stones, or are we still working of our own accord to build a city that we think will be pleasing to the Lord upon His arrival?

Those who are of the temple serve the things of the temple, and those that are on the outside wait at the altar. The sacrifice and the burnt offering were offered outside of the city gates. For those on the outside, will their works of unrighteousness be consumed as a burnt offering before the lake of fire outside the city gates?

.

 

[Chopper]

I have been meaning to respond to this comment Chopper, but I have been extremely busy and have not had the time to gather the scriptures that would compliment my thoughts; maybe if you decide to explore them I can reference them then.

Otherwise this is an interesting comment. Again, I have taken the city and tower of Babel in an attempt compare or contrast it to what is written of the city of New Jerusalem. When you wrote that you had read some history about the workers having to live within the city, otherwise they would not be let into the city.

That kind of reminds me of the City in Revelation 22 where those who were written in the Lamb's book of Life are in within the city, and all the rest were on the outside. Or as Jesus says within the gospels, "And the door was shut."

The city and tower of Babel was made out of fired brick and mortar, the city of New Jerusalem is spiritual house made of living stones.
The builders of the city and tower of Babel labored to make their brick and build their city. The builder of New Jerusalem is the Lord and none other. He has asked you to cease from your labors and to enter into His rest. That you present yourself a living sacrifice, that the Lord may use you as a living stone within His Holy city according to His will.

Have we ceased from our own labors so the Lord can use us as living stones, or are we still working of our own accord to build a city that we think will be pleasing to the Lord upon His arrival?

Those who are of the temple serve the things of the temple, and those that are on the outside wait at the altar. The sacrifice and the burnt offering were offered outside of the city gates. For those on the outside, will their works of unrighteousness be consumed as a burnt offering before the lake of fire outside the city gates?

.

Thank you so much for that wonderful comparison to the New Jerusalem. You are right on my old Biker friend. Ride safe!

 

[eddif]

ezrider
Looking for the metaphysical? Good.

The builder and maker of the New Jerusalem is God. Abraham was not looking for a physical city.

If we give God the credit then we can speak things into existence. If we pervert the instructions from God, he will withdraw his support. Adam was cut off from the tree of life. The Babel folks were cut off from speaking / agreement.

It we want a name for ourselves we are on the wrong track. The tempter always wants us to think we are like God. We are an image of God but the reality is Him and not us.

The kingdom moves inside us to will and do of His good pleasure. He works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure (our stony heart is made flesh). Folks receive eternal life from God and not from the works of our hands. We meet him in the air ( by his work), and not build a tower to launch us to Him.

eddif

 

[smaller]

Every so often I open the pages of the scriptures, and pick up the trails of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Primarily to see and understand how God came to them. What God expressed to them. What God revealed to them. It's been a lifelong fascination for me, to walk with them through the pages that way. As with any undertaking of understanding, starting at the beginning is always necessary. So, with Abram, his personal life account starts in Genesis 11, right after the Tower of Babel engagement. And in that chapter, a basic repeat of a general pattern emerges again, just as it did prior to the flood, that being Gods engagements with the masses and then Gods engagements with the called out ones, the lineage of the people of faith.

Underneath that external narrative, there is another similar narrative, not quite so easy to "mark" but there, nevertheless. It is Gods dealings with the evil or resistance within the masses, and Gods division of His people from that working. I think any believer can see both external and internal narratives, as we also are called in the identical direction. That is kind of why believers are compelled to study these narratives.

There are then, for all spiritual intentions and purposes, 4 narratives in these matters in the broad or general senses. The external (with 2 lines unfolding as noted above) and the internal (with the same 2 lines unfolding as noted above.)

There are actually 3 main Babel (also known further as Babylon) themes in the scriptures. There is this account, the first one. There is the Babylon of Israel captivity, and this engagement summarizes as Mystery Babylon in Revelation. It's quite an intense and fascinating trail, filled to the brim with the allegorical measures of Gods very most REAL engagements that actually continue to this very day.

After all of these various studies, it is incumbent upon any believer to make it personal, on both sides of the equations and in all 4 aspects of the narratives. Humanity in the "unbeliever" senses of itself starts out just as the people of Babel, within each of us down to the last individual. We are blind to God and obsessed with the external world and the work of our hands in the collective sense.

God, in this first Babel account, shows us that He is not impressed with the external workings of the collective. And will also consistently move against such works, to keep the blind collective from coalescing. To, in essence, to conquer them, divide them and scatter them. This is Gods general engagement with Babel through Mystery Babylon. It prospers and builds up to a point, becoming very powerful in the external collective senses, and then the adverse engagements arrive, afterwards. This first Babel is a picture of us, the individual, unsaved, blinded, moved by fascinations with the external works, and then comes the called out one, the father of our faith, Abram, an individual.

These 2 external themes coupled with the 2 internal themes are the basic ground work for the entirety of the scriptural construct. There is a world of people without God, with whom God advances in allowing those (blinded internal) waves of Babylon to proceed to it's finality prior to judgments, which become very powerful prior to their ending, such as with the tower in this case. And there is Gods dealing with the called, the chosen, whom He takes particular interest in showing them the internal ways of divisions from evil and spiritual understandings.

It is a gorgeous and fascinating construct. Marvelous in my eyes. A wonder and wonderful working wherein God will meet you at the end, showing Himself real and working, in the PRESENT, after His Ways. But to see them, one must walk, and do, as Abram to Abraham did also walk.

What started me on this journey was Jesus' dictate to the unbelieving Jews, here:

John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Paul echoes the same intents, here:

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And so, Abram, the "old" "natural" "carnal" man takes his first steps out of the confusions of the whole world, and started after Babel is divided and has fallen.

I think we all can find similar correlations therein, personally applied. A good student of allegory/parable/similitude can spend a huge amount of time in studies of further intimacy, just in Genesis 11.

It is fascinating in the extreme.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Every so often I open the pages of the scriptures, and pick up the trails of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Primarily to see and understand how God came to them. What God expressed to them. What God revealed to them. It's been a lifelong fascination for me, to walk with them through the pages that way. As with any undertaking of understanding, starting at the beginning is always necessary. So, with Abram, his personal life account starts in Genesis 11, right after the Tower of Babel engagement. And in that chapter, a basic repeat of a general pattern emerges again, just as it did prior to the flood, that being Gods engagements with the masses and then Gods engagements with the called out ones, the lineage of the people of faith.

Underneath that external narrative, there is another similar narrative, not quite so easy to "mark" but there, nevertheless. It is Gods dealings with the evil or resistance within the masses, and Gods division of His people from that working. I think any believer can see both external and internal narratives, as we also are called in the identical direction. That is kind of why believers are compelled to study these narratives.

There are then, for all spiritual intentions and purposes, 4 narratives in these matters in the broad or general senses. The external (with 2 lines unfolding as noted above) and the internal (with the same 2 lines unfolding as noted above.)

There are actually 3 main Babel (also known further as Babylon) themes in the scriptures. There is this account, the first one. There is the Babylon of Israel captivity, and this engagement summarizes as Mystery Babylon in Revelation. It's quite an intense and fascinating trail, filled to the brim with the allegorical measures of Gods very most REAL engagements that actually continue to this very day.

After all of these various studies, it is incumbent upon any believer to make it personal, on both sides of the equations and in all 4 aspects of the narratives. Humanity in the "unbeliever" senses of itself starts out just as the people of Babel, within each of us down to the last individual. We are blind to God and obsessed with the external world and the work of our hands in the collective sense.

God, in this first Babel account, shows us that He is not impressed with the external workings of the collective. And will also consistently move against such works, to keep the blind collective from coalescing. To, in essence, to conquer them, divide them and scatter them. This is Gods general engagement with Babel through Mystery Babylon. It prospers and builds up to a point, becoming very powerful in the external collective senses, and then the adverse engagements arrive, afterwards. This first Babel is a picture of us, the individual, unsaved, blinded, moved by fascinations with the external works, and then comes the called out one, the father of our faith, Abram, an individual.

These 2 external themes coupled with the 2 internal themes are the basic ground work for the entirety of the scriptural construct. There is a world of people without God, with whom God advances in allowing those (blinded internal) waves of Babylon to proceed to it's finality prior to judgments, which become very powerful prior to their ending, such as with the tower in this case. And there is Gods dealing with the called, the chosen, whom He takes particular interest in showing them the internal ways of divisions from evil and spiritual understandings.

It is a gorgeous and fascinating construct. Marvelous in my eyes. A wonder and wonderful working wherein God will meet you at the end, showing Himself real and working, in the PRESENT, after His Ways. But to see them, one must walk, and do, as Abram to Abraham did also walk.

What started me on this journey was Jesus' dictate to the unbelieving Jews, here:

John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Paul echoes the same intents, here:

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And so, Abram, the "old" "natural" "carnal" man takes his first steps out of the confusions of the whole world, and started after Babel is divided and has fallen.

I think we all can find similar correlations therein, personally applied. A good student of allegory/parable/similitude can spend a huge amount of time in studies of further intimacy, just in Genesis 11.

It is fascinating in the extreme.

Nice and well stated mini-sermon!

 

[ezrider]

The builder and maker of the New Jerusalem is God. Abraham was not looking for a physical city.

Hebrews 11:8-10
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Notice that Abraham only sojourned in the land of promise, living as a stranger, but never did Abraham try to posses the land as his inheritance.

edit: I might add, this is was part of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, when the devil offered Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world, which by Law and Birthright was his to inherit, but instead Jesus denied the inheritance granted unto Him so that He might do the will of the Father instead. Even 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 talks about Jesus delivering the Kingdom back to the Father.

Hebrew 11:13-16
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

If they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. I find that to be a rather curious statement. This is still referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so from what county did they come out. Shinar? Or is this talking of the promised land? And what significance is there that if they had been mindful of that country, then they might have had opportunity to return? But now they have been given better promises, and desire a better country, they seek instead the heavenly city of God.

.

 

[eddif]

Interesting. We deal with:
Hidden things in creation: Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Types - sometimes persons (Joseph of Egypt)
Shadows - things in law ( of things to come).

From the beginning it appears God planned man to be with him eternally. Temporary: rebellion, sin, murder, towers, etc would not prevent the lamb and his plan.

The plan of God did not require a tower or mans making a name for himself. The ultimate end was to meet him in the air (and glorify God forever). Man wants to by-pass Gods righteousness and establish mans works righteousness (as per satan's lies).

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Now this Hebrews passage is about returning to the Law after: repenting; accepting Jesus ( the word made flesh); and being empowered on the day of Pentecost, and the Gentile inclusion (Jew and Gentile alike).

Adam could not return to the garden.
Cain could not return to family (?)
Abraham could not return to former people
God's people could not return to Egypt

These foreshadowing point to :
Christians (Jews and Gentiles) can not return to works of Law after accepting Christ Jesus and Holy Spirit. (Hebrews 6)

I absolutely see through a glass darkly.
The hidden things of creation
Shadows
Types

All these things strain my simple redneck Mississippi brain. Things that a child can understand.
eddif

 

[Douglas Summers]

Interesting. We deal with:
Hidden things in creation: Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Types - sometimes persons (Joseph of Egypt)
Shadows - things in law ( of things to come).

From the beginning it appears God planned man to be with him eternally. Temporary: rebellion, sin, murder, towers, etc would not prevent the lamb and his plan.

The plan of God did not require a tower or mans making a name for himself. The ultimate end was to meet him in the air (and glorify God forever). Man wants to by-pass Gods righteousness and establish mans works righteousness (as per satan's lies).

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Now this Hebrews passage is about returning to the Law after: repenting; accepting Jesus ( the word made flesh); and being empowered on the day of Pentecost, and the Gentile inclusion (Jew and Gentile alike).

Adam could not return to the garden.
Cain could not return to family (?)
Abraham could not return to former people
God's people could not return to Egypt

These foreshadowing point to :
Christians (Jews and Gentiles) can not return to works of Law after accepting Christ Jesus and Holy Spirit. (Hebrews 6)

I absolutely see through a glass darkly.
The hidden things of creation
Shadows
Types

All these things strain my simple redneck Mississippi brain. Things that a child can understand.
eddif

AMEN edf enter into my rest........ (Hebrews Chapters 2 &3)

In Christ
Douglas Summers