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Whats the problem with sacriices taking place in the 1000 years?

So then the Old Covenant remains in effect until the literal heavens and earth are destroyed at this future judgment, before which time Israel and those who convert to Judaism can be saved by adhering to the Law of Moses?

Hmmm...That would mean either you're right and "heaven and earth" literally means heaven and earth, which means every apostolic writer in the New Testament is wrong about the passing of the Old Covenant, or Christ is right, and the Old Covenant passed away with the destruction of the metaphoric "heaven and earth" in 70 AD.

Tough call, but I'm going with the Lord and Savior on this one. :study

Funny how you always do that, put words into peoples mouths.
Did i say "The old covenant remains in effect" Did I? Stop doing that Storm.

Now that you have done it, instead of being pompous about it, please explain to me why you would suddenly tell me that im telling you something i in fact havent even said, explain to me why you said all this, please.
 
Do you want me to go from just :grumpy to :rollingpin now you kids play nice! Moderator
 
Do you want me to go from just :grumpy to :rollingpin now you kids play nice! Moderator

Reba, no offence but your overreacting, he put words in my mouth and i didnt get mad, i simply asked him to stop and explain why he did it.

Theres no anger or fighting intention or disrespect intended towards him, he does it and im not sure he even realises when he does it sometimes, im not perfect, i dont expect him to be either.
 
Did i say "The old covenant remains in effect" Did I?
As a matter of fact, you did, although you probably don't even realize it.

Heaven and earth gone, judgement AND perdition of ungdly men occurs.
You place the destruction of heaven and earth at the final judgment but completely ignore what Christ said about this:

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

Therefore, if Christ is to be believed at all, the Old Covenant (which is the law of which He speaks here) remains in effect until, as you quote:

"the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2Peter 3:7).

When only THEN the literal heaven and earth will be destroyed.

An event which you place in the future.


Your words. Not mine.

So to recap: if, according to you, "heaven and earth" are literal and are NOT destroyed until the final judgment and - according to Christ - not the smallest letter or stroke of the Old Covenant shall pass away until this happens, then by your own reasoning, the Old Covenant is STILL IN EFFECT, despite what every writer of the New Testament has to say about it!

I think you owe me an apology.
 
As a matter of fact, you did, although you probably don't even realize it.

You place the destruction of heaven and earth at the final judgment but completely ignore what Christ said about this:

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

Therefore, if Christ is to be believed at all, the Old Covenant (which is the law of which He speaks here) remains in effect until, as you quote:

"the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2Peter 3:7).

When only THEN the literal heaven and earth will be destroyed.

An event which you place in the future.


Your words. Not mine.

So to recap: if, according to you, "heaven and earth" are literal and are NOT destroyed until the final judgment and - according to Christ - not the smallest letter or stroke of the Old Covenant shall pass away until this happens, then by your own reasoning, the Old Covenant is STILL IN EFFECT, despite what every writer of the New Testament has to say about it!

I think you owe me an apology.

No actually im not, you think He spoke of the Mosiac law, He didnt, He spoke of Himself, the Word, the Law.

I'd apologize if it was required, honestly, there is no apology to be given.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

Heaven and earth are destroyed at the final judgement, which is of ungodly men in which perdition takes place, the second death.

Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:1-4 the former things passed away, including heaven and earth, also the time in which according to 1 Corinthians the Son subjects Himself back to the Father, the last enemy has been destroyed as is evident by the Word.

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

I know we both agree Jesus is the Law, he who has ears let him hear.

“Behold, I make all things new.”
 
I know we both agree Jesus is the Law, he who has ears let him hear.
No, we don't. Christ was speaking of the Mosaic law in Matthew 5:18, not Himself.

Furthermore, He is NOT the Law and was NEVER called the Law by the writers of the New Testament!

{18} For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness {19} (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19 (NASB)

{7} For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. Hebrews 8:7 (NASB)

{13} When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

(This verse also puts to the lie the view that Hebrews was written AFTER 70AD!)

{8} The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, {9} which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, {10} since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. {11} But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; {12} and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. {13} For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, {14} how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:8-14 (NASB)

Christ IS NOT the LAW!!! He is better than the Law!!! That is the point EVERY WRITER of the New Testament - who writes of these things - makes!!!

I'm sorry, but your devotion to a Biblically bankrupt eschatology is causing you to preach a completely different gospel here, and - quite frankly - I find it offensive.
 
Yes Lord, we see the 'times' that we are living in finding some Extremly Offended :crying:cryingwith your Moral Character which Isa. 42:21 has you Magnifying while on earth. And we others give thanks for your very Moral 'Epistle' Letter recreated in our hearts!
2Cor.3

[1] Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

[2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

[3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

[4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

[5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

 
No, we don't. Christ was speaking of the Mosaic law in Matthew 5:18, not Himself.

Furthermore, He is NOT the Law and was NEVER called the Law by the writers of the New Testament!

{18} For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness {19} (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19 (NASB)

{7} For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. Hebrews 8:7 (NASB)

{13} When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

(This verse also puts to the lie the view that Hebrews was written AFTER 70AD!)

{8} The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, {9} which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, {10} since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. {11} But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; {12} and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. {13} For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, {14} how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:8-14 (NASB)

Christ IS NOT the LAW!!! He is better than the Law!!! That is the point EVERY WRITER of the New Testament - who writes of these things - makes!!!

I'm sorry, but your devotion to a Biblically bankrupt eschatology is causing you to preach a completely different gospel here, and - quite frankly - I find it offensive.


Me telling you He is the Law and the you telling me He is better than the law, then you respond that you find it offensive i told you He spoke of Himself?

"Noone goes to the Father except through Me"

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Christ is the Law.

Did the theif on the cross perform the Mosiac law prior to His death? No, yet Christ told Him today he would be in paradise with Him, why? because the thief fulfilled the Law.

Christ became the law, so now if Christ being the way in which we enter before God on the cross, which would make Him become the law, why would you possibly think He would speak in Matthew that not one part of the law would pass until it was all accomplished?
Did the Jews and Gentiles in 40 -69 A.D recieve forgiveness of thier sins for their sacrifices of animals and for keeping the mosiac law or did they recieve salvation through Him entering upon thier hearts as the perfect sacrifice and them accepting Him as thier saviour?

Exactly, the mosiac law as you speak passed with Christ, not 40 or so years later, being of which would be contrary to what the word says in the scripture you provided, nothing of the law would pass until all is accomplished, yet Christ became the better law, He is the Law, and that is what He spoke of in Matthew 5:18.
It wont pass until all is accomplished.
"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For He has put all enemies under His feet" But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, the the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

"there shall be no more death" "the former things have passed away" "Behold, I make all things new"

When death is destroyed, being the last enemy all things shall be accomplished. "But when He says "all things are put under Him" which is when the Law, Christ, the Son subjects Himself back to the Father.
That is Revelation 21:1-4 and 5 signify all things made new.
 
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No actually im not, you think He spoke of the Mosiac law, He didnt, He spoke of Himself, the Word, the Law.

Scripture in context disagrees with you.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
Scripture in context disagrees with you.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Sin you dont get to heaven through the mosiac law, but through Christ. That is the law.

You can tell me the word is disagreeing with me all you want, the law gives the commandments on how to enter the holy place.

"Noone goes to the Father except through Me" thats the law.
 
Yes Lord, we see the 'times' that we are living in finding some Extremly Offended :crying:cryingwith your Moral Character which Isa. 42:21 has you Magnifying while on earth. And we others give thanks for your very Moral 'Epistle' Letter recreated in our hearts!
2Cor.3

[1] Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

[2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

[3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

[4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

[5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

----'Sacrifices' taking place in the 1000 years?----


God IS LOVE!

And in Matt. 22:35-40 it has Christ talking to a tempting lawyer with (and surely most here are not that intelligent) what the Godheads moral chacter is eternally consisting of!


So what does one see in there being any need of animal Sacrifices taking place after Matt. 22 Time/frame on?? None!


If one has been Born Again in the Requirement of Christ's Word of John 3:3-8 they will see this truth of Heb. 8:10 + Heb. 10:15-16.

And if not? It will not only be animal sacrifices that is their problem, but as Peter points out in 2 Peter 3:16 in the later part of the verse of verse 16 as well. '.. in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, [as they do also the OTHER SCRIPTURES], unto their own destruction.'


--Elijah
 
Scripture in context disagrees with you.
Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If the only way some here can fit Christ's words into their eschatology is to change the meaning of every other word in the New Testament into something else, then we've got a real problem.

Paul didn't recognize Christ as "the Law!" Peter didn't see Christ as "the Law!" Neither did James, John, any of the other NT writers OR EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF!

The Law was replaced BY GRACE: GOD'S UNMERITED FAVOR FREELY OFFERED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!!

This is such a fundamental dogma of Christianity that - to see it challenged by some here who want to make it mean something else simply to support an eschatology that otherwise couldn't be supported- is an absolute affront to Christ and His gospel!

Let me make it clear in absolute terms: to call Christ "the Law" is heresy, according to every apostle who wrote on the subject!!!

I know you don't believe this, Sinthesis. I am trying to get others to understand it, and your post was as good as any by which to make that point.

Peace. Out.
 
If the only way some here can fit Christ's words into their eschatology is to change the meaning of every other word in the New Testament into something else, then we've got a real problem.

Paul didn't recognize Christ as "the Law!" Peter didn't see Christ as "the Law!" Neither did James, John, any of the other NT writers OR EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF!

The Law was replaced BY GRACE: GOD'S UNMERITED FAVOR FREELY OFFERED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!!

This is such a fundamental dogma of Christianity that - to see it challenged by some here who want to make it mean something else simply to support an eschatology that otherwise couldn't be supported- is an absolute affront to Christ and His gospel!

Let me make it clear in absolute terms: to call Christ "the Law" is heresy, according to every apostle who wrote on the subject!!!

I know you don't believe this, Sinthesis. I am trying to get others to understand it, and your post was as good as any by which to make that point.

Peace. Out.

It doesnt get any clearer or simpler than "noone goes to the Father except through Me" Stormcrow, thats a law, you may not think He is the Law, but its quite clear He is, theres no other way to God except through Christ, not the mosiac law.

You telling me basically that for 40 ish years the mosiac law was still foundable to be accepted by God, but in 70 A.D the temple was destroyed ending that and bringing the end of the law, So Christ on the cross meant nothing for 40 years, they could go to the Father through tradition for those 40 ish years. No. "Noone goes to the Father except through Me" It never was the law that brought men before God, God never delighted in the sacrifices, He delighted in the heart conditon of men towards Him.
 
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He is the Law
And in order to make that rather audacious claim, you've had to change the meaning of the word "Law" to discard 2,000 years of apostolic teaching on the word!

Every single time the words "the law" are used in the Bible, they are used to refer to the Law of Moses, NOT CHRIST!!!

{17} For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. John 1:17 (NASB)

John disagrees with you calling Christ "the Law!"

{12} But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat, {13} saying, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law." Acts 18:12-13 (NASB)

If Christ is "the Law", how is it that Paul PREACHED AGAINST HIM?!?!?

{27} When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, {28} crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." Acts 21:27-28 (NASB)

IF CHRIST IS "THE LAW" WHY IS PAUL PREACHING AGAINST HIM?!?!?

{19} Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; {20} because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20 (NASB)

So this passage from Romans about "the Law" is talking about Christ, through whom no flesh will be justified?????

AGAIN, YOUR WORDS:

you may not think He is the Law, but its quite clear He is
SORRY! YOU DON'T GET TO REWRITE 2,000 YEARS OF APOSTOLIC TEACHING TO PREACH A DIFFERENT GOSPEL!!! :grumpy:verysick:rollingpin
 
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And in order to make that rather audacious claim, you've had to change the meaning of the word "Law" to discard 2,000 years of apostolic teaching on the word!

Every single time the words "the law" are used in the Bible, they are used to refer to the Law of Moses, NOT CHRIST!!!

{17} For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. John 1:17 (NASB)

John disagrees with you calling Christ "the Law!"

{12} But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat, {13} saying, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law." Acts 18:12-13 (NASB)

If Christ is "the Law", how is it that Paul PREACHED AGAINST HIM?!?!?

{27} When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, {28} crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." Acts 21:27-28 (NASB)

IF CHRIST IS "THE LAW" WHY IS PAUL PREACHING AGAINST HIM?!?!?

{19} Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; {20} because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20 (NASB)

So this passage from Romans about "the Law" is talking about Christ, through whom no flesh will be justified?????

AGAIN, YOUR WORDS:

SORRY! YOU DON'T GET TO REWRITE 2,000 YEARS OF APOSTOLIC TEACHING TO PREACH A DIFFERENT GOSPEL!!! :grumpy:verysick:rollingpin

If Paul preached Christ and the Jews rose up agants him accusing him of "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law."

What say you? Paul wasnt preaching the law to be contrary to the law, Paul preached Christ who is the Law or else he woud have preached the mosiac law and the Jews wouldnt have accused him of preaching otherwise.

In which again you provided it yourself "This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law"

Paul shouldnt be preaching againts the law if "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Yet here we have the accusation of Paul preaching otherwise.
 
You're entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own Biblical lexicon.
 
Hbr 7:18 - For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hbr 7:19 - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Now do you believe Jesus is the law?
Or do you believe Jesus is the better hope through whom we come to the Father? :readbible
 
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