When Beliefs Conflict

[The Light]

Anyone that has spent any amount of time on this or other forums has undoubtedly encourter if not been a part of doctrinal disagreements. These encounters oftentime do not go well and I was hoping to start a discussion related to ways to improve our discussion of disagreements.
So, what do we do when what someone believes doesn't jibe with what we've been taught? WHat's the best way to bring the 'disconnect' to people's attention? How can we go from the 'let me show you why you're wrong' attitude to the 'let me see what I may have missed' attitude when APPROACHING an area of dissent?

 

[The Light]

I'd like to toss around how we can best identify what beliefs we should place our faith in. Please feel free to share your methods or ideas as it relates to what you believe are the better ways to go about acquiring confidence in a particular doctrine or belief system.

 

[Knotical]

First and foremost we must go back to scripture to find the answer to what is true. It must be read in context. Honestly, from there, if there is still a disagreement it may not be worth continuing the discussion, as one or more parties may not be ready to understand the truth.

Just as importantly all responses should be made out of humility. If we allow ego to enter into our response things rarely go well.

 

[JohnDB]

Even StoveBolts and I don't agree perfectly on every theological issue. We agree a lot...

That doesn't mean that we don't admire the other person's research into the scriptures.

God reveals himself to people on a very personal level. And since everyone is unique their theology is also going to be unique.

There is no Beatitude starting with, "Blessed are the most theologically correct...."

We are man. We are sinful and have hearts that are extremely deceptive. We are currently in our Finite bodies and incapable of having perfect theology. I became God's friend by admitting that I was wrong... continuing along in that line of thinking will keep me one of His.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did the Pharisees agree with what Christ taught, no. They went as far as calling him a blasphemer. They went even further nailing Him to a cross.

This is what happens in many Christian forums as everyone is right and everyone is wrong. How do we fix this is with humility and the greatest commandment of love as we walk in the Spirit of God. Flesh is a hostile enemy of the Spirit for it can not comprehend the Spiritual things. When we get in the flesh this brings no glory to God, but puts us to shame before Him.

Not everyone is on the same level of learning that only comes by the Holy Spirit working either directly or through others to help teach us the pure doctrines of Christ. Religion can't teach us, mans theories can't teach us, because religion and theories only give that of a carnal understanding that only conflicts the doctrines of Christ that leads to arguments and disagreements.

Our unity is in our faith, belief and the love Christ. Our disagreements are because we see scripture differently by how we study or who teaches us. Everyone says they are taught by the Holy Spirit, but evidently not all are or we would all be in agreement with the Spirit of God in whom is our teachers.

Are we to believe everything that is taught from the pulpit or are we suppose to Spiritually discern that of what others teach us rightly dividing the word of God as not all Pastors are called of God to teach, but are self appointed. Let's not forget about Jezebel who loves to deceive us from the pulpit by teaching a deceptive gospel that has caused a falling away from truth.

Luke is a great example of someone who was not one of the 12 disciples and did not personally witness the teachings of Christ, but yet he wrote the books of Luke and Acts as he researched everything that Christ taught as he learned from the Apostles of Christ. Should this not be also ourselves searching the Gospels for the doctrines of Christ!

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[tdidymas]

Anyone that has spent any amount of time on this or other forums has undoubtedly encourter if not been a part of doctrinal disagreements. These encounters oftentime do not go well and I was hoping to start a discussion related to ways to improve our discussion of disagreements.
So, what do we do when what someone believes doesn't jibe with what we've been taught? WHat's the best way to bring the 'disconnect' to people's attention? How can we go from the 'let me show you why you're wrong' attitude to the 'let me see what I may have missed' attitude when APPROACHING an area of dissent?

One of the most difficult things in my own experience as well as my observation of others is to distinguish between trusting in God who is in heaven, and trusting in what I think I know about Him. IMO this is one of the biggest mountains in the way of true humility and unity in the body. It takes a person who trusts God in such a way that they are willing to ask themselves the question, "Could I be wrong about this issue?" And if I could be wrong about some Biblical doctrine, then certainly the one who taught me from the pulpit could be wrong about it. This is why Bible study is so important.

With that said, there are some things we must agree on that is basic to Christianity, if we want others in the body of Christ to regard us as part of them:
1. The Bible is the inspired word of God.
2. Jesus is the Son of God (and God the Son). The virgin birth is attached to this.
3. Christ died to rid us of sin. He is our Savior and Lord.
4. Christ rose from the dead, and is in heaven.
5. The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe the gospel.
6. In Christ's name we are forgiven of all our sins.
7. Resurrection and eternal life is the gift of God to us who believe the gospel.

These are the basics that I can think of, and much could be said about them. Our discussions usually revolve around these, or some detail about these basics. Certainly if I'm wrong about something, I'd sure like to know about it. But that might take some time, effort, and deep study of the scripture on the part of people. Such things not only sharpen our ability to teach others, but it helps us to be clear about what we should believe and practice.

I hope that we can continue in this, while growing spiritually and maturing in the faith.
TD

 

[Anto9us2]

I have been coming to Christian message boards since 1999.

I don't expect to agree with everybody on different areas.

On this board, it has already been determined we will not approach OSAS vs OSnAS, and in a staff sticky that is kind of extended into any Arminian/Calvinist issues. Fine. I never saw anybody change their mind about any of that because of a thread on a board in 20 years. Never. Same with Cessationists vs Continuation, but it's allowed to be discussed here.

So sometimes we approach dissent, sometimes we avoid it, like the OSAS issue.

As far as acquiring confidence in a particular doctrine or belief system, I find I am already confident about what I believe; nothing has changed other than ESCHATOLOGY the whole time I have been on message boards.

Trinitarianism, Arminianism and Free Will, Continuationism, that's not going to change for me; I may just get better at realizing others views are others views, and approach or not approach certain areas. One thing is the other side of t h e coin, there will be Calvinists I agree with on other areas, Cessationists I agree with about other matters. It's not up to me to change anybody else's mind, I will agree with or like somebody's ideas on SOMETHING and have common ground.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Hearing all of this is such a relief. The forum certainly seems to be heading in the right direction by practicing patience, understanding and other attitudes that foster brother/sistership in Christ.

 

[tdidymas]

I remember a few (very few) people who admitted to change of mind about something. Usually pride is a stiff monkey, and you don't know if you made a difference. People don't like to get "egg on their face" (or they don't like to publicly announce it).

Another biggie stronghold is fear, that if I'm wrong about something I think is major to salvation, then "I might be going to hell!!" People usually just abandon the conversation then. Or they abandon it because they've reached their limit of knowledge, and are afraid of unknown influence.

A third issue might be confusion, since many times traditional thought clashes with scriptural teaching. I've heard some innovative ideas that sound good at first, but don't agree with scripture after careful examination.

I just think that if a person is influenced to spend more effort studying the Bible (instead of just parroting what someone else said), I've made some difference. But I'll probably never know it.
TD

 

[stovebolts]

Anyone that has spent any amount of time on this or other forums has undoubtedly encourter if not been a part of doctrinal disagreements. These encounters oftentime do not go well and I was hoping to start a discussion related to ways to improve our discussion of disagreements.
So, what do we do when what someone believes doesn't jibe with what we've been taught? WHat's the best way to bring the 'disconnect' to people's attention? How can we go from the 'let me show you why you're wrong' attitude to the 'let me see what I may have missed' attitude when APPROACHING an area of dissent?

Our staff has been working hard to create an environment that builds the body up by finding areas of agreement and building on that foundation instead of always seeking our differences and tearing one another apart. We've still got work to do, but we can't do it on our own. We need members who seek reconciliation and harmony within the Body of Christ first and foremost.

Anyone who's familiar with online forums are familiar with all the arguments that divide us and those who continually engage in them are not seeking truth, but but they are seeking their own self righteousness under the guise of Christ.

Christianity as a whole is pretty much a wreck with thousands of divisions and denominations each pointing their finger at each other in judgment against the other and some going as far as to claim the other isn't a true Christian because their doctrine doesn't agree with their own. We don't adhere to that type of arrogance here and those types of members are quickly escorted to the door. We will not be a breeding ground for division.

For myself, I have to take somebody where they are at in Christ and although I may disagree with their doctrine, I have to remind myself that it's part of their faith so the question for myself becomes this. Where can I find common ground? First it starts with really listening to them and understanding them and showing them respect. If we can't build this foundation with each other, then the conversations only turn into strife because nobody will let go of a core belief if another is trying to berate them.

Christianity is built off relationships. It starts with our relationship with God and trickles into our family and our community. One could almost say that ones relationship with God can be seen by his relationship with the Body of Christ. This should be a sobering thought.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I like the first few chapters in Revalations. Jesus identifies Himself and with powerful images symbolizing something more, then He dictates letters to the churches. Too often it seems that the churches fit common Christian paths. In this case I think in Revelations 2, the Leters to Ephesus, Pergamum, and Thyatira, apply to the point of differences in doctrine.

Ephesus first because Jesus commend them for their stance again false apostles and wicked people, and for pushing through hardships. But then Jesus tells them that they've fallen from how they use to be and have left their first love. (Which must be the love of God, and the love of Jesus). Ephesus praises their stance in rejecting wickedness and falsehood, but also points out a pitfal in that path, that our hearts may grow cold, and to renew our love for God and being living for His sake, or else He may come and remove our ministry from among His church.

The letters to Pergamum and Thyatira on the other hand are just the opposite of Ephesus when it comes to their praise and what they need to work on. In Pergamum, Jesus praises them for holding fast to Jesus's name in spite of persecution and oppression even in the face of being martyred. Yet He tells them to reject two false teachings and false doctrines among them. Thyatira likewise is praised for doing well in their faith this time for their services, their love, and their patience. But like Pergamum, Jesus rebukes them on allowing false teachers and immoral practices to be among them.

I think the letters to these three churches can apply yo the discussion of doctrinal differences. Because like Ephesus we can be caught up in rebuking wickedness and falsehood, that we lose sight of follow God's ways to love, be of service, be patient, and to hold on to Jesus through it all. Still, the other two churches held to Jesus through persecution, and were praised on their works of service, but they allowed false teaching to be among them.

My thought walking away from this is to never lose sight of the love of God and to go out with the same attitude. Don't let the quest against evil and falsehoods turn you away from our love with God in us. Then after that don't forget to stay true to God as best as you know how, to reject false doctrines. As an individual that means to walk away from it. As a church that could mean to stand against it being taught within the church. I think we can all do this based on our understanding, to listen to each other with love and patience for their sake, as well as our own sakes considering if they say a truth that we can consider from the bible to confirm. But then after that make a decision. Is that a teaching that leads away from God and what He said to do. If so have nothing to do with it. Not even to allow them to be taught in in your churches.

 

[for_his_glory]

Humility, humbleness and love towards one another has to be first in all we discuss, especially within our indifference's. Indoctrination can cloud the mind especially when many are not truly searching for truth, but only believing that which comes from the pulpit. Not every Pastor is called of God and given the anointing of the Holy Spirit to preach/teach and give a carnal understanding that only makes logical sense, but leaves out Spiritual understanding.

We need to question the indifference and not the the person so we can understand how and why another believes as they do, but not for the sake of telling them they are wrong or that we are right, but like StoveBolts said, to find common ground to build upon. I might not always agree with what others believe, but if I take the time to listen to them they might be shedding light on something I never saw in the scriptures as this will lead me to a deeper study. There is no shame in admitting we might be wrong, but there is shame when we come against each other.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[Anto9us2]

"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."

Some say Augustine said it, others, no, a German guy, Meiderlin said it - no, it was a Jesuit guy, no, it was the Moravians...

And who gets to decide what the ESSENTIALS are?

tdidymus listed 7 points that are good as essentials, I don't see who could argue with those.

I was on one board where there were Flat Earthers. Reasonable about other things, they claimed photos from space showing a round EARTH were fake!

"Joshua commanded the SUN TO STAND STILL", no gettin' around them...

Christians are not the only ones to disagree about things. I saw Stanley Kubrick on TV saying he FAKED the Apollo moon shots.
(I think he had been drinking')

 

[GodsGrace]

I have been coming to Christian message boards since 1999.

I don't expect to agree with everybody on different areas.

On this board, it has already been determined we will not approach OSAS vs OSnAS, and in a staff sticky that is kind of extended into any Arminian/Calvinist issues. Fine. I never saw anybody change their mind about any of that because of a thread on a board in 20 years. Never. Same with Cessationists vs Continuation, but it's allowed to be discussed here.

So sometimes we approach dissent, sometimes we avoid it, like the OSAS issue.

As far as acquiring confidence in a particular doctrine or belief system, I find I am already confident about what I believe; nothing has changed other than ESCHATOLOGY the whole time I have been on message boards.

Trinitarianism, Arminianism and Free Will, Continuationism, that's not going to change for me; I may just get better at realizing others views are others views, and approach or not approach certain areas. One thing is the other side of t h e coin, there will be Calvinists I agree with on other areas, Cessationists I agree with about other matters. It's not up to me to change anybody else's mind, I will agree with or like somebody's ideas on SOMETHING and have common ground.

I just got here and haven't read from the beginning, but will.

What makes you think anybody posts to change anybody's mind??
Adults pretty much make up their own mind about everything and ditto for teens.
I don't remember many times when anyone has changed anybody's mind....except maybe spouses.

Aren't we here to exchange ideas and learn from each other?
I think it's important to know what others believe because it facilitates speaking to other Christians.
The reformed always state they're not understood. Perhaps speaking about it will make us all understand it better?

What is important is that we DEBATE and not ARGUE...there is a difference.
Debate means stating what one believes...and giving the other member an opportunity to state what they believe.

We certainly could LEARN from each other....even if we don't necessarily change any doctrinal beliefs.

I found out about the Early Church Father's on this forum years ago....it has confirmed a lot and changed my mind about a few ideas practiced in Christianity.

I've found some links members posted to be helpful.

I believe we should be allowed to speak about anything as long as we're civil to each other.
IF a thread REALLY gets out of hand....then, of course, a moderator should step in.

This is a calm and respectful forum....
It seems like this could be extended between ourselves to all topics.

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyone that has spent any amount of time on this or other forums has undoubtedly encourter if not been a part of doctrinal disagreements. These encounters often times do not go well and I was hoping to start a discussion related to ways to improve our discussion of disagreements.
So, what do we do when what someone believes doesn't jibe with what we've been taught? WHat's the best way to bring the 'disconnect' to people's attention? How can we go from the 'let me show you why you're wrong' attitude to the 'let me see what I may have missed' attitude when APPROACHING an area of dissent?

Doctrinal discussions will go about as well as any other.
If two persons are reasonable, anything can be discussed.
If one is not, then the conversation will not go well and the smarter one will end it.

Of course we're going to disagree on doctrinal issues...look at the number of churches; the number is in the thousands.

So if someone doesn't believe as I do, I rather like the discussion because I'm bound to learn something new.
I don't find disagreement to be an issue...
I find uncivility to be an issue.

The N.T. is not absolutely clear about everything and thus the differing doctrine.
I think this is better than living like some religions that even teach their adherents how to take a bath.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the most difficult things in my own experience as well as my observation of others is to distinguish between trusting in God who is in heaven, and trusting in what I think I know about Him. IMO this is one of the biggest mountains in the way of true humility and unity in the body. It takes a person who trusts God in such a way that they are willing to ask themselves the question, "Could I be wrong about this issue?" And if I could be wrong about some Biblical doctrine, then certainly the one who taught me from the pulpit could be wrong about it. This is why Bible study is so important.

With that said, there are some things we must agree on that is basic to Christianity, if we want others in the body of Christ to regard us as part of them:
1. The Bible is the inspired word of God.
2. Jesus is the Son of God (and God the Son). The virgin birth is attached to this.
3. Christ died to rid us of sin. He is our Savior and Lord.
4. Christ rose from the dead, and is in heaven.
5. The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe the gospel.
6. In Christ's name we are forgiven of all our sins.
7. Resurrection and eternal life is the gift of God to us who believe the gospel.

These are the basics that I can think of, and much could be said about them. Our discussions usually revolve around these, or some detail about these basics. Certainly if I'm wrong about something, I'd sure like to know about it. But that might take some time, effort, and deep study of the scripture on the part of people. Such things not only sharpen our ability to teach others, but it helps us to be clear about what we should believe and practice.

I hope that we can continue in this, while growing spiritually and maturing in the faith.
TD

You said some words that I find disturbing and have heard on a lot of forums and which I do not agree with at all.
You said:

Such things not only sharpen our ability to teach others,

Why do you think you're here to teach others?
Do you have a PHD after your name?
Are you one of the top theologians in the world...like John Lennox or Tom Wright?

No?

Then we shouldn't be here to TEACH.
We should be here to LEARN and to share what LITTLE WE KNOW with others....
if they accept our learning is not for us to force on anyone.

We state and then we go on our way.

I doubt I even agree with all Lennox or Wright say....
But we sure have a lot to learn from them!

 

[Tessa]

When I read something that disagrees with my understand8ng I study God's word and ask for gu9damce from The Holy Spirit. I trust G9d to pit me in the place He wants me to be at the time. He has His people everywhere and I think we should respect that
I haven't always believed what I do now, we are forever learning.
We have to learn humility and not t0 judge each other.

 

[tdidymas]

You said some words that I find disturbing and have heard on a lot of forums and which I do not agree with at all.
You said:

Such things not only sharpen our ability to teach others,

Why do you think you're here to teach others?
Do you have a PHD after your name?
Are you one of the top theologians in the world...like John Lennox or Tom Wright?

No?

Then we shouldn't be here to TEACH.
We should be here to LEARN and to share what LITTLE WE KNOW with others....
if they accept our learning is not for us to force on anyone.

We state and then we go on our way.

I doubt I even agree with all Lennox or Wright say....
But we sure have a lot to learn from them!

Why do you find this disturbing? Do you realize that the idea you are conveying here shows that you are trying to teach something? Every time someone enters a debate, they are trying to teach ideas or doctrine or something that they believe others should know about and believe as they do. And how can anyone learn truth unless someone is teaching it? The Bible says that the scripture "is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction..." and so when people are misled or taught wrong ideas, which we all have been there, someone needs to give meaning of scripture so that correction of ideas, and thus faith, can occur.

In fact, I am a Bible teacher, and I have the spiritual gift of teaching, as many people have told me. I felt called to teach the Bible many years ago, and I've had a lifetime of learning and teaching experience. And I'm still a student, so I can learn as well. So in effect, I am here to teach, and also to learn.

Incidentally, the pharisees also asked about Jesus' credentials, since he didn't learn under any rabbi. The Bible is my reference, and anyone can check out whatever I say by the scripture references I give to support it, to make sure that I'm not taking anything out of context. If anyone wants to prejudge what I say, it's their prerogative. But the challenge is to study the scripture deeper to see what the apostles and prophets believed.
TD

 

[daninthelionsden]

I just got here and haven't read from the beginning, but will.

What makes you think anybody posts to change anybody's mind??
Adults pretty much make up their own mind about everything and ditto for teens.
I don't remember many times when anyone has changed anybody's mind....except maybe spouses.

Aren't we here to exchange ideas and learn from each other?
I think it's important to know what others believe because it facilitates speaking to other Christians.
The reformed always state they're not understood. Perhaps speaking about it will make us all understand it better?

What is important is that we DEBATE and not ARGUE...there is a difference.
Debate means stating what one believes...and giving the other member an opportunity to state what they believe.

We certainly could LEARN from each other....even if we don't necessarily change any doctrinal beliefs.

I found out about the Early Church Father's on this forum years ago....it has confirmed a lot and changed my mind about a few ideas practiced in Christianity.

I've found some links members posted to be helpful.

I believe we should be allowed to speak about anything as long as we're civil to each other.
IF a thread REALLY gets out of hand....then, of course, a moderator should step in.

This is a calm and respectful forum....
It seems like this could be extended between ourselves to all topics.

I have actually changed my beliefs or what I thought I believed due to reading others thoughts on this forum and others like it. I usually don't state that a belief I had had changed, but once in a while I will publicly admit to being swayed.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I personally believe each christian has a specific and unique viewpoint of the Kingdom and a little piece of Truth revealed only to them to share with the rest of the Body. Conflict easily arises when that person's little piece of revelation is rejected out of hand and rudely so. Or the person with their little piece of insight cannot accept such a small input and due to ego/pride simply must feel they know more than they actually do.