When did the law actually end?

[Drew]

Remember this is Olde English and a translation.

The Greek word Telos means goal, accomplishment, intent, purpose, fulfillment.

Christ is the accomplished goal of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone that believeth. He is not the end of the Law itself, but the accomplisher of our righteousness Aka. "Imputed righteousness". To them who do NOT believe.. they are "under the Law" in EVERY meaning of the term.

I am actually aware that the word "telos" is used here in Romans 10 and its use is indeed entirely consistent with the position that the work of Jesus on the cross resulted in the abolition of the Law of Moses. You appear to simply assume that an "intent" reading is incompatible with an "abolition" reading.

It is not. Suppose I am on a plane to London, England. I am flying with a purpose - to get to London. When I get to London, do I keep flying? Of course not. My purpose has been fulfilled. So the flying stops once the purpose of flying is fulfilled.

That's how I think it is with the Law of Moses - it had the purpose of leading us to Christ (Galatians 3). Once that purpose is achieved, there is no more need for the Law and it is abolished, just as Paul says, and just as Jesus enacts.

By the way, I am fully aware that Paul says, in Romans 3:31, that the "law" is established. In keeping with things he writes in Romans 2, I believe that Paul is not referring to the written code of the Law of Moses in Romans 3:31. I hope to get into that later....

 

[Ashua]

I am actually aware that the word "telos" is used here in Romans 10 and its use is indeed entirely consistent with the position that the work of Jesus on the cross resulted in the abolition of the Law of Moses. You appear to simply assume that an "intent" reading is incompatible with an "abolition" reading.

It is not. Suppose I am on a plane to London, England. I am flying with a purpose - to get to London. When I get to London, do I keep flying? Of course not. My purpose has been fulfilled. So the flying stops once the purpose of flying is fulfilled.

That's how I think it is with the Law of Moses - it had the purpose of leading us to Christ (Galatians 3). Once that purpose is achieved, there is no more need for the Law and it is abolished, just as Paul says, and just as Jesus enacts.

By the way, I am fully aware that Paul says, in Romans 3:31, that the "law" is established. In keeping with things he writes in Romans 2, I believe that Paul is not referring to the written code of the Law of Moses in Romans 3:31. I hope to get into that later....

Context defines what Paul is talking about.

The scriputres I posted declare by the prophets "Thus saith the LORD" that his Law is eternal and forever. If you want to argue that telos can mean goal, fulfillment, aim, purpose, as I contend as WELL as to end it in the sense that the Law is ABOLISHED as you contend... If you want argue that the word could mean either one... Then which of the two possible interpretation seems most consistent when measured back to back with the verses which say the Law is forever?

The Law was NEVER intended to save a man. That is something most Christians make the mistake of assuming. Law and Salvation are unrelated and always have been. (not saying whether or not you make that mistake personally, but most do)

If two scriptures appear to contradict, its because of interpretation. Through deductive reasoning telos can be inferred to mean "purpose" or "goal" as it still is compatible with the saved by grade alone doctrine as well as does not override the Word of God which says forever or in Matthew where Jesus says think not that I am come to destroy the Law -- Think not that I am come to abolish the Law. I am not come to Abolish but to satisfy the Law.

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. -Matthew 5:17 New Living Translation

See how Jesus himself says his intention wasn't not to abolish the Law? He isn't playing a game of semantics here. he is saying he came to accomplish the Law. He came to keep the Law perfectly to the letter that the Law's requirement would be satisfied --The righteousness of the Law fulfilled in Christ and imputed to us.

o remove any doubt, here is what comes directly after that verse:

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until all is fulfilled..

So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. -Matthew 518-19 New Living Translation

The context is obvious about Moses Law. It says as much. The "Law of Christ" wasn't even verbalized until much later. The only "Law" those Jesus spoke to at the time was the Torah. You cannot ignore what is being said here. It is too obvious.

 

[Drew]

The scriputres I posted declare by the prophets "Thus saith the LORD" that his Law is eternal and forever.

While I concede that I have not looked at the specific texts you posted, I am quite familiar with this matter and each case I have investigated a text which purports to establish that the Law of Moses is eternal, I have found that the original Hebrew has used a word, translated as "eternal", which is also open to a "time-limited" reading.

In other words, translators make certain decisions as to how to render certain texts. And this necessarily introduces the possibility of error. Besides, it seems clear to me that both Paul and Jesus declare that the time of the written code of the Law of Moses has come to an end. Paul does so most clearly in Ephesians 2, and Jesus in Mark 7 where He declares, against what the Law of Moses declares, that no food makes a man unclean.

 

[Ashua]

While I concede that I have not looked at the specific texts you posted, I am quite familiar with this matter and each case I have investigated a text which purports to establish that the Law of Moses is eternal, I have found that the original Hebrew has used a word, translated as "eternal", which is also open to a "time-limited" reading.

In other words, translators make certain decisions as to how to render certain texts. And this necessarily introduces the possibility of error. Besides, it seems clear to me that both Paul and Jesus declare that the time of the written code of the Law of Moses has come to an end. Paul does so most clearly in Ephesians 2, and Jesus in Mark 7 where He declares, against what the Law of Moses declares, that no food makes a man unclean.

What about the phrase, "To a thousand generations"? Is that figurative? If so, what is the purpose of the figurative number? For only 1,500 years? 2,000? What about the verses which speak about God being with us "forever" and so forth? What about all of the good "forevers" in scripture?

So God will not reign "forever" and his word will not endure "forever" just a good period of time? Is there a statute of limitations on "everlasting life"? When Christ sat down at the right hand of God and made an end of sins, was it forever, or just for a really long time?

 

[Drew]

If you want to argue that telos can mean goal, fulfillment, aim, purpose, as I contend as WELL as to end it in the sense that the Law is ABOLISHED as you contend... If you want argue that the word could mean either one... Then which of the two possible interpretation seems most consistent when measured back to back with the verses which say the Law is forever?

I never said that we have to read Romans 10:4 in the manner I suggested, I said that it was a possible reading. And I suspect that I will be able to cast doubt on this assertion of yours that Law of Moses is eternal. I will get to that in future posts.

The Law was NEVER intended to save a man. That is something most Christians make the mistake of assuming. Law and Salvation are unrelated and always have been. (not saying whether or not you make that mistake personally, but most do)

Well, I certainly am not making the mistake of believing that the Law of Moses was given as a means for attaining salvation.

See how Jesus himself says his intention wasn't not to abolish the Law? He isn't playing a game of semantics here. he is saying he came to accomplish the Law. He came to keep the Law perfectly to the letter that the Law's requirement would be satisfied --The righteousness of the Law fulfilled in Christ and imputed to us.

Well I disagree with a lot here. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus came to be obedient to the Law of Moses, I believe that it teaches that Jesus was obedient to the covenant obligations the people whom He represents - the nation of Israel. I will not get into details in this post - instead I will simply assert that there is another possibility, besides the Law of Moses, to consider in respect to determining precisely what it is that Jesus was obedient to. I also do not believe the scriptures teach that we are imputed with Jesus' righteousness. And yes, I am fully aware that this is what most protestant Christians have believed since the reformation.

Now let's talk about the well known text that you have cited from Matthew 5.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Law of Moses will remain in force basically to the end of time.

 

[Codger]

I believe that we're not under law, as Galatians 3 says. I'm not wanting to debate that particularly, I'm just wondering when the law actually ceased to be. I kind of assumed it was done away with when Jesus was crucified.But if you read Mark 2 v 23-28, where the pharisees are asking Jesus about doing something unlawful on the sabbath, Jesus doesn't say anything about it not being against the old covenant law; his response seems to imply that the law is already done away with.

God gave Israel 40 years to repent - they did not, so he sent them into captivity in Babylon. Likewise he gave them 40 years to repent after the cross and those who did not were punished in 70 AD. I would say that the two covenants were in operation for those 40 years of transition and the Law officially ended with the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple. God gave Israel 40 years to make this transition from the Old to the New Covenant.

 

[Theofilus]

I do not believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus came to be obedient to the Law of Moses.

Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law. (I John 3:4 HCSB)​

Breaking the law of Moses is the very definition of sin. If Jesus broke even one single commandment, that means he was a sinner. If that's the case, then his death was meaningless, since he only died for his own sin, and that means that we are lost, without any hope of salvation.

There is a commandment in the Law, which is repeated a number of times (for example in Deu. 4:2), which says that we are not to take away from or add to the Law. If Jesus did either, then that too would make him a sinner.

If Christ's life, death and resurrection had any meaning at all (and I believe very strongly that they did), then Jesus must have obeyed the Law perfectly and taught others to do the same.

 

[theLords]

Yes and no. Yes because people from every age and dispensation stand by faith alone. Noah Abraham Moses David.... All of those who live "under the law" so called will stand on the day of judgment because they were under the law of Grace and redeemed by the propitiation of Christ. So, really, whether or not a saint was from the days before Christ or after him, everyone who is saved is saved by Grace from Moses on down.

No in the sense that if you are asking that if only (exclusively) those from the Church age will reign alongside Christ, I assure you the Old Testament saints will too.

I agree with you. I forgot about that OT saints, if I remember my Bible correctly, aren't the disciples going to make up a council of government and then there are the elders who worship and the 24(?) right? (or are the 24/elders the same group?) I'm getting all that mixed up I think

 

[Ashua]

I agree with you. I forgot about that OT saints, if I remember my Bible correctly, aren't the disciples going to make up a council of government and then there are the elders who worship and the 24(?) right? (or are the 24/elders the same group?) I'm getting all that mixed up I think

The elders are mentioned in Revelation. I'm not sure what youre referring to exactly. Youd have to be more specific or give me a verse to check. The groups of saints mentioned in Revelation always tend to be martyrs. --those who have died for the Word of God and the name of Christ.

I know the New Jerusalem will have twelve gates and twelve foundation stones given after the names of the twelve sons of Israel and the twelve Apostles respectively.

 

[jasoncran]

The elders are mentioned in Revelation. I'm not sure what youre referring to exactly. Youd have to be more specific or give me a verse to check. The groups of saints mentioned in Revelation always tend to be martyrs. --those who have died for the Word of God and the name of Christ.

I know the New Jerusalem will have twelve gates and twelve foundation stones given after the names of the twelve sons of Israel and the twelve Apostles respectively.

ashua she is talked about the 4 and twenty elders that offer incense at the throne room around the pool of crystal water.

they can only be jews as the elders are two from each tribe.

 

[Ashua]

ashua she is talked about the 4 and twenty elders that offer incense at the throne room around the pool of crystal water.

they can only be jews as the elders are two from each tribe.

Okay yeah, The four and twenty elders.

 

[theLords]

Ah! So that's what I was talking about. I couldn't remember the reference to save my life. Is that recorded in Ezekiel?

 

[jasoncran]

Ah! So that's what I was talking about. I couldn't remember the reference to save my life. Is that recorded in Ezekiel?

have you actually read revalation? that is the only mention of those elders.

 

[theLords]

have you actually read revalation? that is the only mention of those elders.

Yes, then maybe I'm thinking about something else. When Ezekiel was in heaven? Hmmmm, I don't know. I seem to be confusing the Books of the Bible, lol

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, then maybe I'm thinking about something else. When Ezekiel was in heaven? Hmmmm, I don't know. I seem to be confusing the Books of the Bible, lol

ezekiel has visions of the lord in heaven very similair to john, ie the four living creatures
the wheels and the throne with the divers color of God and the pool of crystal clear water etc

and so does daniel.

and sometimes isiah

the bible is very redudant at times with certian things that need to be noted. ie 7, 6 and other hebriac symbols and meanings

ie the olive tree and the fig tree the menorahs and lampstands etc.

 

[theLords]

ezekiel has visions of the lord in heaven very similair to john, ie the four living creatures
the wheels and the throne with the divers color of God and the pool of crystal clear water etc

and so does daniel.

and sometimes isiah

the bible is very redudant at times with certian things that need to be noted. ie 7, 6 and other hebriac symbols and meanings

ie the olive tree and the fig tree the menorahs and lampstands etc.

Redundant? or God's hidden validation?

 

[Ashua]

That is what I was about to say. Ezekiel saw much of the same things in his vision as John. Revelation is like a second witness to the end days. It is entirely possible the elders are mentioned in Ezekiel. I was purposing to read Ezekiel after I finished with Joshua (more or less done), but I was also considering reading more of the histories first... (Judges, Kings, Chronicles etc)

 

[jasoncran]

Redundant? or God's hidden validation?

redudant is a poor choice

check the things i posted in our own forum on this. i did put it out there.

 

[theLords]

redudant is a poor choice

check the things i posted in our own forum on this. i did put it out there.

I knew your intent ;) I just couldn't resist the opportunity to praise the Lord

 

[Elijah674]

God gave Israel 40 years to repent - they did not, so he sent them into captivity in Babylon. Likewise he gave them 40 years to repent after the cross and those who did not were punished in 70 AD. I would say that the two covenants were in operation for those 40 years of transition and the Law officially ended with the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple. God gave Israel 40 years to make this transition from the Old to the New Covenant.

It ENDED for these ones.
Heb. 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

And these ones also of todays Rev. 17:1-5. And if one does not BELIEVE God??? They could be one of these huh??

--Elijah