My posts are real one on ones. I wonder why the resistance? Anyone can read the one on ones, so why not jump in here?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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When does a believer receive eternal life?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
I said:
"There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity"
"There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity"
Bingo! #1 is the answer. Thanks.
Kidron
Member
Do you believe what Jesus says, or what John says?
How about the Apostle Paul?
If so, then here is what they say.
1 John 2:25
1 John 5:13
John 6:47
Romans 6:23
If you study what "Eternal Life" actually is, then you'll discover that its not a period of time.
See, that is what most uninformed believers actually think EtnLfe is..
here is what they think....."well, eternal life is never spiritually dying"... "eternal life is just a soul going on after death".
But NOPE, that is not right, that is not correct, that is NOT theologically accurate, and it is not TRUE, tho a soul does continue post death.
But not with "eternal life" unless that soul is REDEEMED.
Eternal LIfe, = is Christ.
HE, is eternal life.
Eternal LIfe IS Jesus The Christ.
This is why He tells you that HE is the "Resurrection and THE LIFE".
So, as HE is eternal life, then if you have Him...(born again), then you are "in Christ", and have '"passed from....death........TO LIFE.""
See that?
You have to get that if you have not yet understood......
You, as a believer, have been given the GIFT of Eternal LIFE (gifts and callings of God are without repentance (wont ever take it away).
= Eternal LIFE = as Christ is Life Eternal. = "Christ IN YOU" and you "IN Christ".
So, this is why Jesus tells you that if you will "believe", then you will HAVE....Eternal life.
ITS A PROMISE.
As "having" EtlLfe, is to have HIM, .....as HE is the redeemer......= HE, IS eternal life.
So, that is why John says that you "can KNOW".
Of course you can know........you dont have to guess or hope or worry or try to win it by works or lifestyle.
THIS IS BECAUSE ITS A PROMISE AND A "GIFT".
Y0U DONT EARN IT.
You can KNOW you have eternal life, = once you understand WHO Eternal life IS, and that HE is IN YOU.
And....This is why you will meet Him in the Sky.
This is why you cant lose your salvation.
Salvation IS Eternal life, and Eternal Life IS Jesus the Christ.
So, if you have HIM, if you are born again, then you are secure in your Eternal life, and your Salvation, as they are the SAME EXACT THING.
Eternal Life = Born Again = Salvation = GIFT.
<K><
How about the Apostle Paul?
If so, then here is what they say.
1 John 2:25
1 John 5:13
John 6:47
Romans 6:23
If you study what "Eternal Life" actually is, then you'll discover that its not a period of time.
See, that is what most uninformed believers actually think EtnLfe is..
here is what they think....."well, eternal life is never spiritually dying"... "eternal life is just a soul going on after death".
But NOPE, that is not right, that is not correct, that is NOT theologically accurate, and it is not TRUE, tho a soul does continue post death.
But not with "eternal life" unless that soul is REDEEMED.
Eternal LIfe, = is Christ.
HE, is eternal life.
Eternal LIfe IS Jesus The Christ.
This is why He tells you that HE is the "Resurrection and THE LIFE".
So, as HE is eternal life, then if you have Him...(born again), then you are "in Christ", and have '"passed from....death........TO LIFE.""
See that?
You have to get that if you have not yet understood......
You, as a believer, have been given the GIFT of Eternal LIFE (gifts and callings of God are without repentance (wont ever take it away).
= Eternal LIFE = as Christ is Life Eternal. = "Christ IN YOU" and you "IN Christ".
So, this is why Jesus tells you that if you will "believe", then you will HAVE....Eternal life.
ITS A PROMISE.
As "having" EtlLfe, is to have HIM, .....as HE is the redeemer......= HE, IS eternal life.
So, that is why John says that you "can KNOW".
Of course you can know........you dont have to guess or hope or worry or try to win it by works or lifestyle.
THIS IS BECAUSE ITS A PROMISE AND A "GIFT".
Y0U DONT EARN IT.
You can KNOW you have eternal life, = once you understand WHO Eternal life IS, and that HE is IN YOU.
And....This is why you will meet Him in the Sky.
This is why you cant lose your salvation.
Salvation IS Eternal life, and Eternal Life IS Jesus the Christ.
So, if you have HIM, if you are born again, then you are secure in your Eternal life, and your Salvation, as they are the SAME EXACT THING.
Eternal Life = Born Again = Salvation = GIFT.
<K><
Edward
2024 Supporter
The problem as I see it is that too many believe they are "in Christ" while not displaying it by their lifestyles. I contend that one who is "in Christ" will live a life worthy of that calling. We should not be deceived. Do we believe only with our mind or do we believe with our heart? Does our life reflect the life of Jesus? Do we bear much fruit or do we just talk the talk without walking the walk? I believe it is important to ask ourselves these questions and pray the Holy Spirit will work in our lives to bring it to completion what has been begun.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 NKJV
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Romans 8:16-17 NKJV
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Colossians 3:12-17 NKJV
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
John 15:5 NKJV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 NKJV
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Romans 8:16-17 NKJV
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Colossians 3:12-17 NKJV
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
John 15:5 NKJV
billybalke
Member
Why not the real one on one? Your posts (nor anyone else for that matter) are not one on ones, but a conglomoration of many posts speaking at the same time. I have no time for that.
selihah
Member
I think you may have taken that verse out of context. Because if you read just several verse prior too it, they speak of two kinds of people. The man who trusts in men whose heart has departed from Yehovah. And the man who trusts in Yehovah and whose hope is in Yehovah.
I think when the verse comes up telling us that "the heart is desperately wicked who can know it"? It's telling us God can and He will know the difference between them because he searches their heart not their outward appearances.
R
Runner
Guest
It appears that essentially the same OSAS vs. OSNAS thread resurfaces every couple of weeks, if not more often, with essentially the same participants saying essentially the same things and citing essentially the same Bible verses. Perhaps there ought to be a separate OSAS vs. OSNAS debate forum where all threads devoted to this seemingly endless debate are collected?
Although I have argued on behalf of both positions because I can see that they both have merit, one key vulnerability I see with the OSAS position is the assumption that all of the "believe" and "believe in His name" verses, such as those cited in the OP, refer to a specific point in time. One "believes," and that's that.
I don't pretend to be a student of these verses or of Greek or Hebrew, but I recall that one of the Greek tenses that appears to be the present tense, as though it referred to a specific point in time, actually refers to a continuity. For example, I recall learning that Ephesians 5:18 ("be ye filled with the Spirit") is actually more properly translated as "be ye continually being filled with the Spirit." If this were true of the "believe in His name" verses, it would put an entirely different (and potentially OSNAS) spin on them.
Apart from any technicalities of the language, it seems to me that the "believe" and "believe in His name" verses are great mysteries. What does it mean to "believe"? This seems to me to be the central issue. It is not at all clear to me that alternative #3 in the OP should be rejected. It is not at all clear to me that "salvation and eternal life are synonymous," or that most Christians agree they are.
Winter Tapioca
Member
I'm relatively new here therefore I don't know about a cycle of OSAS , OSNAS, threads. However, I'd think that what in my personal opinion would concern me is if any person claiming the name of Christ attempted to refute what Christ died for by posting in a cyclical manner time and again to reiterate their contention.
If any force in the universe would know the earthly meaning of "eternal" it would be The Word that delivered it through the agency that was the eternal I Am. Jesus name was not Jesus. It was Emmanuel, God with us. As the angel spoke it to Mary who was to name the son the Holy Spirit was to beget upon her.
Eternal life. Eternal salvation. Emmanuel died to establish that eternal covenant in blood. No thing changes what God ordained to be a fact of our life. Eternal life. Eternal salvation. Those that would hope to try are contrary , the antithesis, of the covenant Christians are under when they are one in Christ.
Why would we entertain anything or anyone that hopes to argue from their perspective that eternal is what they see? Not what God decreed.
If any force in the universe would know the earthly meaning of "eternal" it would be The Word that delivered it through the agency that was the eternal I Am. Jesus name was not Jesus. It was Emmanuel, God with us. As the angel spoke it to Mary who was to name the son the Holy Spirit was to beget upon her.
Eternal life. Eternal salvation. Emmanuel died to establish that eternal covenant in blood. No thing changes what God ordained to be a fact of our life. Eternal life. Eternal salvation. Those that would hope to try are contrary , the antithesis, of the covenant Christians are under when they are one in Christ.
Why would we entertain anything or anyone that hopes to argue from their perspective that eternal is what they see? Not what God decreed.
It is possible to confuse/conflate being saved with acting like it. They are decidedly different. Being saved does not mean or guarantee that the saved person will act like it. Which is why we find all the commands in the NT.
Ditto here. We know from Eph 1:13,14 that being "in Christ" is a function of the Holy Spirit (not ourselves) and a guarantee of our inheritance, as God's possession. A clear statement of eternal security, but that's not the point of this thread. And being "in Christ" occurs from "having believed", not from an on-going belief that we must maintain. I think that's where a lot of confusion lies.
Certainly true. Do all believers understand how they grieve (Eph 5:18) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, which means they are functioning from their sin nature, and not the new nature, which cannot sin (1 John 3:9)? It seems many do not.
The only way to not "fulfill the lusts of the flesh" is to "walk by means of the Spirit" (Gal 5:16). So, grieving and quenching the Spirit is how to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
A believer cannot walk by means of the Spirit and simultaneously grieve or quench the Spirit. They are diametrically opposed.
Please define the difference, with biblical support. Thanks. From my study, it seems they are equivalent.
That's the goal for the believer, but not the goal for salvation.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion. When I post to another poster, it's just one on one with that poster. It's no conglomeration of posters or posts. I am dealing with ONLY that poster's particular post.
I am getting the impression that interest in really dealing with my posts is lacking from your end.
God certainly does search the hearts of men, as in always having known everyone's heart, because He is omniscient.
However, the human heart is where our sin comes from, so it is basically wicked. The only way to function apart from our own heart is to be regenerated with a new nature and by the filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), and walking by His means (Gal 5:16), we won't and can't sin (1 Jn 3:9).
This seems to be an acceptance that the Bible speaks out of "both sides of the mouth". Because the 2 positions are diametrically opposed. That means only 1 of the positions can be true, rendering the other position totally false.
This is the fallacy that plagues the OSNAS group. The present tense is spoken from the perspective of the speaker/writer, and refers to "right now", or "currently". It does NOT have any concept of continuity out into the future. There is another verb tense for that idea.
The only concept of continuing action associated with the present tense is that the "right now" or "current" action is on-going. There is no sense that the present tense is used to indicate that the results of present or current action will continue ONLY AS LONG AS the current action continues. I've never found that in any Greek text. If there any support for that, please cite the source and statement from that source.
The hole in the OSNAS position is the very direct statements from Jesus Himself.
In John 5:24 He said that those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.
Then, in John 10:28, He said this: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Bingo. Eternal life is given by Jesus to those who believe. That means WHEN they initially believed. And there's no verse about receiving eternal life any time after believing. And Jn 10:28 nails the issue of eternal security. Those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.
This cannot be contradicted by any other verse.
billybalke
Member
selihah
Member
True we are capable of doing incredibly wicked evil sinful things. But so are we capable of doing incedibly beautiful, righteous and good things. Since we have knowledge of both good and evil. Both are decisions we make from the heart. It is difficult to know the hearts of others but for God he knows and tries our hearts to see where we stand. Thats my thoughts on what the verse about means hearts that have departed from Yehovah and the hearts of men who truely trust Him.
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R
Runner
Guest
No, it is a recognition that both positions have biblical support and that the "true" answer is far from clear, which is why biblical scholars of the highest caliber can be found to support each position. The "black or white" approach to doctrine is a common one that, IMO, leads to more confusion and divisiveness than light. This is famously seen in C. S. Lewis' statement that Jesus was either a "lunatic, liar or Lord." You must accept one of the three, Lewis said; only one can be true. Everyone now realizes that this is fallacious because it does not include all the possible alternatives, such as "legend" (meaning the possibility that Jesus never existed at all), that He existed but did not say many of the things attributed to Him, or that what He actually did say was not accurately reported decades after the fact.
I am not convinced that OSAS and OSNAS, as commonly understood, exhaust the possibilities. I am not convinced that both are not to some extent "true." Moreover, OSNAS to some extent subsumes OSAS: The status one provisionally obtains when one repents and believes can later be lost. Since whether I accept the OSAS or OSNAS position will have precisely zero effect on how I live my life, I do not regard the distinction as a Christian essential. It's sort of like Pascal's Wager: If I live as though OSNAS is correct, but OSAS is actually correct, what have I lost? (Not that I would have lived my life any differently if I had bet OSAS was correct, which is why I view the debate as mostly Much Ado About Nothing.)
The reality is, the OSNAS position has massive biblical support (as well as in the earliest Christian writings). One cannot just keep citing the OSAS verses like a parrot and expect to convince anyone.
Again without purporting to be a Greek scholar, I did find a good discussion of Greek tenses at http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm. The discussion emphasizes that, in Greek, the primary focus of tense is not "time" but rather "kind of action." The present tense is indeed associated with continuity - progressive or continuous action. Someone may want to address how the "believe" and "believe in His name" verses are to be understood in the Greek, a project that I decline to undertake.
My point is simply that even in English, a phrase such as "even to those who believe in His name" does not inevitably mean "those who believe one time, case closed." Read in context - such as the context of the numerous OSNAS verses - it could mean "believe" in a broader, continuous sense, or in the sense of the act of belief being the "starting point."
The issue is not, as you suggest, "There is no sense that the present tense is used to indicate that the results of present or current action will continue ONLY AS LONG AS the current action continues." I am not talking about the current action of "belief" having immediate "results" that "continue" only as long as the "belief" continues and that will be "lost" if the belief does not continue. I am talking about BELIEF ITSELF being the continuous action - there are no "results" to be "lost" unless and until that action is completed. THERE SIMPLY IS NO BELIEF at all until the continuous action constituting "belief" is completed. I'm not pushing this interpretation, merely suggesting it as a possibility.
My words and highlights in blue.
True belief is the way, the truth and life of Christ. Not just in head, but in all thought and action.
Winter Tapioca
Member
Interestingly if someone clicks on the John 3:15 verse link in Hermit's post there is no "may" about it.
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
chessman
Member
I'll give it a go:
"No element of Greek language is of more importance to the student of the New Testament than the matter of tense. A variation in meaning exhibited by the use of a particular tense will often dissolve what appears to be an embarrassing difficulty, or reveal a gleam of truth which will thrill the heart with delight and inspiration. Though it is an intricate and difficult subject, no phase of Greek grammar offers a fuller reward. The benefits are to be reaped only when one has invested sufficient time and diligence to obtain an insight into the idiomatic use of tense in the Greek language and an appreciation of the finer distinctions in force." (Dana & Mantey, pgs 176-7). These comments by Dana and Mantey are to be taken seriously if the student of the New Testament desires to get any benefit from the study of Greek; this is an area that offers much reward. Never neglect to notice the tense of each Greek verb and note its significance and bearing upon the meaning of each passage.
John 11:35 Jesus wept (aorist, simple in occurrence, past in time).
John 11:35 Jesus wept (aorist, simple in occurrence, past in time).
John 17:2 just as you have given (aorist, simple in occurrence, past in time) him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give (aorist, simple in occurrence, past in time) eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given (perfect, completed with results in kind, past with present results in time) him.
I agree to have a one on one here and now. Then I'll see how real your interest really is.