When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
reads like a repentance to me..

Yes, he did repent, and the LORD still whammed him with a lot of divine discipline. David suffered greatly for his sin.

iow, he didn't get away with anything. Repenting of sin doesn't let us off the hook, by any means.

It's just sad when the teaching of eternal security isn't balanced by the teaching of God's discipline for disobedience.

Consider taking communion in church. Usually the pastor quotes part of 1 Cor 11, but how many times do they ever mention v.30, which is God's discipline which includes, weakness, sickness, and physical death. All for abusing the Lords' Table.

It's when eternal security is taught and divine discipline isn't taught that creates problems. So OSAS isn't the problem. It's FAILURE to teach about God's divine discipline.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'll take a stab at this if you don't mind. When our old man is dead to us and we abide in Christ and do not take our eyes off of him like Peter did...(then he started to sink immediately!)...then we are free from sin. We are taking our marching orders from the Lord/ Holy Spirit.

Well said. I see the issue as this: which nature are we functioning from? The sinful human nature, or our new born again nature? When we are functioning from our new nature, where the Holy Spirit resides, we cannot sin. When we function from our sinful human nature, we cannot not sin. The Bible calls this being carnal, or fleshly (1 Cor 1, 3). When we are carnal we grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30).

There is a few examples of this in scripture. How about when God broke Peter out of jail? That's illegal to make a jail break. Even according to God because we are supposed to follow the authority of mans law because it is God that put man's government in place etc.., But since Almighty God Himself wanted Peter out of jail...it happened and it was not sin for Peter.

Good example.

 

[chessman]

Eternal life is given to those on the Day of Judgement when they have been judged according to their deeds.

Why change what the Text says from "rendered" to 'given"??? Paul certainly didn't. Eternal life is the judgment "rendered" (not given) for the resurrection bodies of those souls previously given eternal life when they believed and who He keeps.

Paul quoted the end of Prov 24:12 verbatim.

Proverbs 24:12 (NKJV)
12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?​

Some have been given eternal life, some have not. The ones that have been given eternal life previously are rendered a judgment on that day consistent with their pervious gift. Our mortal bodies are restored/returned to our souls. How could it be otherwise for The Righteous Judge who weighs the hearts and "keeps your souls" of His new creation sealed until this day???

 

[FreeGrace]

Instead of going over every single point here (and probably making you even angrier than you are/sound)...let me ask you something...

I'm sorry how much my posts are being totally misunderstood. I have no anger when I post. I do get somewhat frustrated at times when a very clear verse is quoted and then ignored, dismissed, etc.

You are vehemently disagreeing with people

Please provide a sample of what this "vehement disagreement" looks like. Some people are so hyper-sensitive and "snowflake" like, they see ANY disagreement as vehement.

and accusing multiple people of different things

Please provide a sample of what I've accused these multiple people of. I ask, because I haven't accused anyone.

assuming things about you

From some of the posts to me, it's very clear that the poster has assumed wrong things.

putting words in your mouth, twisting things, and even calling Jesus a liar

Are these samples of what I've accused others of? Who have I EVER accused of calling Jesus a liar? Please be specific.

I will explain my comments, which have obviously been misunderstood.

I HAVE said that the view of loss of salvation makes Jesus a liar. Now, did I accuse anyone of anything? No. I AM accusing a viewpoint that makes Jesus a liar.

...so...let me ask you, what are you defending?

Truth. What Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

What point are you trying to make that you are getting so frustrated about?

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Because I certainly do not want to assume anything about you

Thank you. I appreciate that.

...as is your wishes...so can you give me a summary of your position and what it is that you are defending? What is your intended point here?

Once given eternal life by Jesus, the recipient shall never perish.

 

[JLB]

Yeah. Who needs Jesus anyway! We've got our good works to save us. Eternal life based on deeds. Sorry Jesus. Ya didn't have to die after all!

So you believe we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, a new divine nature empowered by His Spirit so that we can do evil works?

So that we will still live as a slave to sin in our flesh just as before?

Frankly sir I don't want to sin, as I have a desire to walk in righteousness and please God.

Over the years in my life with Him I have had learn many lessons about sin and how it grieves Him, and I have had to repent over and over about many things until I matured and overcame.

I'm not perfect but I certainly have come a long way and desire Him and cherish my relationship with Him and love it when He speaks to me and gives me something to do to be a blessing to someone, to show them the love of Jesus and bless them.

I hate sin and evil and love God and keep Him commandments because I love Him and love His people.

I practice righteousness because it's just a simple by product (fruit) of my relationship moment by moment with Him.

I have a prayer room in my home where I go to spend time focused on Him and to worship Him.

He is my all consuming desire.

He blesses me greatly in my business and ministry and His presence upon my life is amazing.

I can honestly say, if you don't have a desire to practice righteousness and do good and love people, you just don't kbow God.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Consider taking communion in church. Usually the pastor quotes part of 1 Cor 11, but how many times do they ever mention v.30

My pastor does and specifically asked saved members who are not pre-pared to take the elements to get prepared or abstain. And asks for non-saved people that might be visiting to abstain.

Although I visited a church the other day that handed out the 'wine' in little plastic cups that look like to-go coffee creamer and wafers in little packets that looked like wet-wipes as everyone enter the sanctuary. I assumed they were severing doughnuts and coffee inside. Never seen that before. But hay, it made the two minute 'service' go quickly. Which he specifically said their church practices 'open communion' and for everyone to participate regardless. Times, they are a-changing.

 

[FreeGrace]

No this is not a works based salvation.

Some here claim that a sinful lifestyle will result in loss of salvation. That is works based.

Are we not supposed to...build up our treasures in heaven?

Absolutely. This is about eternal rewards for faithfulness and obedience.

Are we not to try to take on the mind of Christ and walk as He did (does)?

Yes, this is commanded in the Bible.

Show me the scripture which we are to occupy...on our couch doing nothing...ok?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"And King David was already saved when he raped and murdered. And then under conviction, changed his mind about what he did."

How about those who were already saved and ended up thrown straight down to hell alive?

Who is this referring to? The only people the Bible says will be thrown straight into the lake of fire are the beast and false prophet.
Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:33

OSAS

Is this serious? Where would anyone get "lake of fire" from "the pit"? There is no mention of fire, burning.

Let's consider what a "pit" is. A large hole in the ground. Which was closed over this "pit" and those thrown into this pit died (perished).

This verse says nothing about the FUTURE lake of fire. It's about people being thrown alive into a pit, having dirt covering over the people and pit, and they died. Pretty simple.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"You never answered my question about WHEN one actually receives the gift of eternal life, or what "end of their faith" means. And this is just another waffle."

I have many many times.
You either can't read or just willfully close your eyes to the truth.
Eternal life is given to those on the Day of Judgement when they have been judged according to their deeds.

OK, thanks for finally being this clear. And exposing your view that is in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches about WHEN one possesses eternal life. John 3:15, 16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 ALL say plainly that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

But good to know that your views are in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Here it is again word for word -

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—
indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8
JLB

Oh, right. We we go again. Those who are also aware of what ELSE Paul wrote in Romans, know that "there is none good, no, not one" in 3:10 and that "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory" in 3:23.

Which means that NO ONE can fulfill Rom 2:6-8.

If anyone could, they wouldn't need the Savior. Is that your view? If Rom 2:6-8 is achievable, then it should be. Which is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

It seems your theology skips that fact that all of us will be judged according to our deeds.

I've already made that point many times. Are my posts being read at all? Or just ignored.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: Romans 2:6

He will render eternal life to some based on their deeds.

No He won't. See previous post on your misunderstanding of that passage.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Consider taking communion in church. Usually the pastor quotes part of 1 Cor 11, but how many times do they ever mention v.30"

My pastor does and specifically asked saved members who are not pre-pared to take the elements to get prepared or abstain. And asks for non-saved people that might be visiting to abstain.

You've got a great pastor! And it shows!! Your posts are RIGHT ON!!

Although I visited a church the other day that handed out the 'wine' in little plastic cups that look like to-go coffee creamer and wafers in little packets that looked like wet-wipes as everyone enter the sanctuary. I assumed they were severing doughnuts and coffee inside. Never seen that before. But hay, it made the two minute 'service' go quickly. Which he specifically said their church practices 'open communion' and for everyone to participate regardless. Times, they are a-changing.

How sad!

 

[reba]

Like was said King David repented

 

[JLB]

I've already made that point many times. Are my posts being read at all? Or just ignored.

I have never seen you address nor discuss the fact that we all will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ, and be Judged according to our deeds.

Here is the outcome of His Judgment:

Eternal life or eternal damnation in the everlasting fires of hell.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11

Here is the two different outcomes of being Judged according to our deeds -

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

JLB

 

[JLB]

Why change what the Text says from "rendered" to 'given"??? Paul certainly didn't. Eternal life is the judgment "rendered" (not given) for the resurrection bodies of those souls previously given eternal life when they believed and who He keeps.

Paul quoted the end of Prov 24:12 verbatim.

Proverbs 24:12 (NKJV)
12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?​

Some have been given eternal life, some have not. The ones that have been given eternal life previously are rendered a judgment on that day consistent with their pervious gift. Our mortal bodies are restored/returned to our souls. How could it be otherwise for The Righteous Judge who weighs the hearts and "keeps your souls" of His new creation sealed until this day???

The ones that have been given eternal life previously are rendered a judgment on that day consistent with their pervious gift.

That is your assumption, and not what is plainly stated here.

Eternal life goes to, is given to, is rendered to: those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11

Two outcomes for those who come before Christ on the Day of Judgement -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Render certainly does mean give.

Render - G591 - apodidōmi

The KJV translates Strong's G591 in the following manner: pay (9x), give (9x), render (9x), reward (7x), sell (3x), yield (2x), miscellaneous (9x).

Mat 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give G591 account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat 20:8
So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give G591 them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

Luk 16:2
And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give G591 an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Luk 19:8
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore G591 him fourfold.

Act 19:40
For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give G591an account of this concourse.

2Ti 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give G591 me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give G591 account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1Pe 4:5
Who shall give G591 account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give G591 every man according as his work shall be.




JLB

 

[JLB]

OK, thanks for finally being this clear. And exposing your view that is in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches about WHEN one possesses eternal life. John 3:15, 16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 ALL say plainly that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

But good to know that your views are in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches.

No scripture here just an opinion tagged with a reference.




Eternal life is given to those on the Day of Judgement when they have been judged according to their deeds.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Here it is again word for word -

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—
indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

So you believe we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, a new divine nature empowered by His Spirit so that we can do evil works?

So that we will still live as a slave to sin in our flesh just as before?

Frankly sir I don't want to sin, as I have a desire to walk in righteousness and please God.

Over the years in my life with Him I have had learn many lessons about sin and how it grieves Him, and I have had to repent over and over about many things until I matured and overcame.

I'm not perfect but I certainly have come a long way and desire Him and cherish my relationship with Him and love it when He speaks to me and gives me something to do to be a blessing to someone, to show them the love of Jesus and bless them.

I hate sin and evil and love God and keep Him commandments because I love Him and love His people.

I practice righteousness because it's just a simple by product (fruit) of my relationship moment by moment with Him.

I have a prayer room in my home where I go to spend time focused on Him and to worship Him.

He is my all consuming desire.

He blesses me greatly in my business and ministry and His presence upon my life is amazing.

I can honestly say, if you don't have a desire to practice righteousness and do good and love people, you just don't kbow God.


JLB

I don't know why any church would promote the idea that the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus isn't sufficient for salvation. Why any church would cheapen grace and smuggle in a works based salvation is puzzling. Why any church would promote the cheapening of grace and insist that salvation is cooperative effort between Jesus and the sinner smacks of heresy IMHO. To promote a salvation based on endurance is a church I'd run away from. Why a church would teach that we are saved by grace through faith after all we can do, is a Mormon teaching. Any church teaching these things just doesn't know God.

 

[chessman]

Eternal life goes to, is given to, is rendered to:

The phrase; "goes to", "given to" and "rendered to" are not equivalent (similar but to equivalent). That's why there's a list of different meanings given for words in Lexicons. One (and only one) meaning makes the most sense given the context. It's a fallacy to transfer the whole list of possible meanings into any one occurrence. It's called "illegitimate totality transfer" to do that. (e.g. 'I'm blue today.' might mean I'm feeling sad today or it might mean I'm dressed in blue clothes today getting ready for the game. What it DOES NOT mean is that I'm sad AND dressed in blue.) It entirely depends on the context.

pay (9x), give (9x), render (9x), reward (7x), sell (3x), yield (2x),

See, nine times it's translated as "pay". Nine other times it's translated as "sell". To pay is NOT equivalent to sell. Nor is "give" equivalent to "render".

Render certainly does mean give.

No it doesn't. The Greek word used in Romans 2 means what Paul meant in the context. Which, again, is literally Paul quoting from the Proverb:

Proverbs 24:12 (NKJV)

12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7725.htm
return (261), return and take back (1), return* (1), returned (151), returned* (1), returning (2), returns (9)​

The reason it matters is obvious too. If you really want to know what Paul meant, see what the Proverb meant.

Paul's quoting a Proverb proving that there will be a "restoration or "returning" or "rendering" of the body to the soul (which has been kept by God who knows it (past, present and future). Righteous Judgment is "rendered" to each one in accordance with what was promised. Genuine believers have eternal life now (prior to the Judgment) because our souls do NOT perish at death, even though our bodies die.

But if you want to look at the word in the Greek only (which I don't know why one would because Paul's quoting the Proverb), then look at 1325 first. There's your word "give". The word in Romans 2 is a different word. Similar, but to equivalent.

John 17:2
just as You gave Him authority over all flesh in order that as to all that You have given Him, He may give eternal life to them.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1325.htm​

The word used in Romans 2 is a compound word. apo-didomi , apo-1325 (apo-give, render, re-compose). Apo means "because" or "before".

Because we have been given eternal life, we get rendered bodies to go with it. Simple.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Ephsians 2: 8,9
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 11:5
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

 

[WIP]

You mean that Jesus died to deliver us the covenant that insures eternal salvation isn't love?

Nice try at twisting what I wrote rather than just answering the question, which would be more appropriate for a theology discussion. I'm not here to try to mince words and see which of us can get the last word in or score the next point. I'm here to learn. If you'd like to address my question, I am all ears and would love to hear what you have to present.

Someone has already presented a well thought out answer that has provided me with great food for thought. I was hoping you could the same.

 

[WIP]

New American Standard Bible
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 15:9 (NASB95)
9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

If believers could be separated from this love, we would have to conclude that The Lord Jesus Christ could also be separated from this love.

It is narrow because it is faith alone in Christ alone. If we add even a weee bit of our own work into that faith it is not efficacious for our salvation.

Thank God we are saved the moment we believe, Acts 16:31. Because pretty much all of us fall away from this amazing grace at some point in our lives, And many never come back to this truth........but are still saved.

Do you think God does not love even those who are not saved? That is what I'm trying to show. God in fact does love even those who are not saved.