When does a believer receive eternal life?

[th1b.taylor]

In a nut shell, my view is this: God saves, God keeps. When I read the verses I quoted, and see we are sealed by the HS, adopted as sons, the work in us will be completed by HIM, and on and on, I can't help but conclude that a truly saved person will walk in HIM and endure - by the power of God it will be done. This seems clear from the whole of Scripture. And we who believe, ought to be encouraging one another unto good works instead of fighting over an theological issue that will never be resolved. If only the same amount of effort were put into serving others in the way Christ called us to do. That would be something.

Oh my dear friend, it will be resolved... by God, Himself! I am oft found saying that God will jerk these painful knots out of or tails so as to facilitate straightening out our warped ideas of His Theology. Trouble is, we are still being consumed by personal pride, right now, but then what d0 I, a Farm Boy, raised by a farm girl know?

 

[FreeGrace]

Never stumble, do you?

I didn't say that.

Boy, that must be nice!

I didn't even insinuate that.

Skeptical sort that I am, I'd have to follow you around for a month or so and interview several of your friends and relatives to confirm this.

Confirm what, exactly?

BTW, I didn't see anything in the verses you cited about never stumbling.

Again, I never said nor inferred that I never stumble.

But again, we have the "minor" issues that 1,500 years of Christians didn't see this in the Bible, it began with the Calvinistic view of predestination, and it exploded into a modern Free Grace movement that has been widely condemned as being precisely "too good to be true."

There is nothing from Calvinism that has "exploded into the FreeGrace movement". Such a claim is ludicrous.

I guess Clement, Polycarp, Origen, Aquinas, et al., just weren't too good at reading the Bible, huh?

It seems there are lots of people who aren't too good that understanding the Bible.

And none of the verses I provided have been discussed in your response to my post. Which leaves me to conclude that either:
1. my post wasn't really read
2. the verses can't be explained to support the view that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

reba said: ↑
Good grief i see nothing wrong with giving a reference to scripture ...hover over it and it appears ... giving a scripture reference /or copy and paste is acceptable ..

Since it is such a controversial topic with both sides claiming the scriptures as proof then somebody's perception of what the scriptures say is wrong.

No kidding!!

Talking in endless circles with no scripture is senseless.

When a verse is cited, that does NOT equal the false charge of "no scripture". Just accept what she said about it.

I have come to know from experience that what Freegrace states as his opinion is not what the scripture says.

My views are directly backed up by the verses I cite and/or quote.

Example:

Eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
Romans 11:29 & Romans 6:23

Neither of these scriptures say this.
JLB

All one has to do is read each of the verses and they will see that my "opinion" is correct.

Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God.
Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Both verses speak of God's gifts. So they are related in that way. 6:23 is about one of them.

11:29 is about more than just one of them. And Paul noted 3 of them previously in Romans.

 

[MarkT]

Papa Zoom said: ↑
You cannot lose that which you have been given from God. And by the power of the HS that seals you, you will not fall. You will not stumble.

One doesn't have to wish it to be true. The Bible says it, so it is true.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 all say whoever believes HAS eternal life. That means a present possession.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

From Jn 3:15,16,5:24 and 6:47 we know that when one believes, they have eternal life.
From Jn 10:28 we know who gives the believer eternal life; Jesus Christ. And He says those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Please don't believe the lie that if something sounds too good to be true, it isn't true. When the Bible says it, you can count on it being true.

Eternal security is true. The Bible is clear that we are eternally secure.

Rom. 11;29 refers to the covenant God made with Jacob, especially the call and the gifts. You've taken a statement about God's word and made it into a statement about eternal life.

This verse says nothing about losing eternal life so you can argue it can't be lost.

Eph.1:13-14 Paul speaks of being in Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. But what did Jesus say about remaining in him?

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

If a man does not remain in him, he is cast forth as a branch, broken off and burned - Destroyed. Consumed.

So the security you keep talking about is only in Christ. There's no security for those who do not remain in Him.

And to believe in him is to believe in the Word of God - trust him, keep his sayings, follow him, do what he said.

 

[gr8grace3]

Do you think God does not love even those who are not saved? That is what I'm trying to show. God in fact does love even those who are not saved.

Without a doubt he loves believers and unbelievers. Salvation would have never come to mankind if it were otherwise. And you know I know this. Who doesn't know this FACT even with a wee bit of biblical knowledge?

The true question is.......do you know the different types of love in His word?

He has a impersonal, unconditional love for all mankind John 3:16........but we are PERSONALLY(In Christ Jesus) loved as believers and His Children Gal 3:26. ANd it is love that can't be lost. Rom 8.

But if we want other believers to burn forever because they don't measure up to our scale....we are going to have to believe that the love He has for us is not synonymous with salvation.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Said sorry ? are you really sorry

Of course

 

[Papa Zoom]

Oh my dear friend, it will be resolved... by God, Himself! I am oft found saying that God will jerk these painful knots out of or tails so as to facilitate straightening out our warped ideas of His Theology. Trouble is, we are still being consumed by personal pride, right now, but then what d0 I, a Farm Boy, raised by a farm girl.

 

[gr8grace3]

I've addressed it frequently. Those who read my posts know this.

So, I'll summarize. In 2 Cor 5:10, we know that all believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

What it plainly doesn't say is that entrance into heaven is based on "whether our deeds are good or bad".

So, what is being taught here? What our eternal rewards are based on. We know this from what Jesus said in Rev 20:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done."

This is what John wrote in 2 John 8 - Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Regarding unbelievers, we see their judgment in Rev 20:11-15. We see that the books of deeds are opened and they are judged regarding them. We also see the book of life, and the VERY BASIS for being cast into the lake of fire, being not having their names in that book.

So the lake of fire is NOT based on what one did during their life, but on what they failed to believe, which is in Jesus Christ as Savior.

So, what are the books of deeds the basis of? How bearable it will be for them IN the lake of fire. How do we know this? From what Jesus said in Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

It should be obvious that the residents from Sodom and Gomorrah weren't going to heaven. But at the Great White Judgment, their deeds will determine just how bearable, according to Jesus, it will be IN the lake of fire.

So, there it is. A full explanation of why every human being will be judged on their works. But NONE are judged by their works for whether they end up in heaven or hell.

If there is any disagreement, please address my points here one by one, and support your contrary opinion with supporting Scripture. Like I have done.


Those who have read farther in Romans also know what else Paul wrote about this:
3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

So, from these 2 verses, it is clear that no human being EVER can meet the criteria in 2:6-8 and earn eternal life.

But Paul was even more clear in 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I believe no one can argue that "continuance in doing good" is not equated with "works of the law". And so Paul eliminates your misunderstanding of 2:6-8.

If anyone could meet the criteria by continuance in doing good, then salvation and eternal life would be earned, and there would be no need for Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

Amen,Amen and Amen. I wish I had four thumbs to put up!

 

[MarkT]

I've addressed it frequently. Those who read my posts know this.

So, I'll summarize. In 2 Cor 5:10, we know that all believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

What it plainly doesn't say is that entrance into heaven is based on "whether our deeds are good or bad".

So, what is being taught here? What our eternal rewards are based on. We know this from what Jesus said in Rev 20:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done."

This is what John wrote in 2 John 8 - Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Regarding unbelievers, we see their judgment in Rev 20:11-15. We see that the books of deeds are opened and they are judged regarding them. We also see the book of life, and the VERY BASIS for being cast into the lake of fire, being not having their names in that book.

So the lake of fire is NOT based on what one did during their life, but on what they failed to believe, which is in Jesus Christ as Savior.

So, what are the books of deeds the basis of? How bearable it will be for them IN the lake of fire. How do we know this? From what Jesus said in Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

It should be obvious that the residents from Sodom and Gomorrah weren't going to heaven. But at the Great White Judgment, their deeds will determine just how bearable, according to Jesus, it will be IN the lake of fire.

So, there it is. A full explanation of why every human being will be judged on their works. But NONE are judged by their works for whether they end up in heaven or hell.

If there is any disagreement, please address my points here one by one, and support your contrary opinion with supporting Scripture. Like I have done.


Those who have read farther in Romans also know what else Paul wrote about this:
3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

So, from these 2 verses, it is clear that no human being EVER can meet the criteria in 2:6-8 and earn eternal life.

But Paul was even more clear in 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

I believe no one can argue that "continuance in doing good" is not equated with "works of the law". And so Paul eliminates your misunderstanding of 2:6-8.

If anyone could meet the criteria by continuance in doing good, then salvation and eternal life would be earned, and there would be no need for Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

I think you are confusing before hearing the good news and after hearing the good news. re. Salvation, Our deeds done before hearing the good news do not count for salvation. But after hearing the good news, what excuse can a person have for not doing what Jesus said?

 

[Papa Zoom]

I think you are confusing before hearing the good news and after hearing the good news. re. Salvation, Our deeds done before hearing the good news do not count for salvation. But after hearing the good news, what excuse can a person have for not doing what Jesus said?

None of our deeds count for salvation. "not of works so that no one can boast" The Bible is pretty clear on that point. Works fall under another category but they do not count in any way for salvation.

 

[JLB]

None of our deeds count for salvation. "not of works so that no one can boast" The Bible is pretty clear on that point. Works fall under another category but they do not count in any way for salvation.

What "works" are you referring to?

• The works of the law
• The works that earn a wage
• The work of obedience of faith

Let's look at scripture with it's context so we can determine together, the context of the word works, to see what Paul is saying.


I think we can agree, without obeying the Gospel, no man will be saved?


One scripture says we are justified by works, and another says we are not justified by works.

• What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Romans 4:1-4

This is an example of "works the earn" a wage: No one can work to earn salvation.

• knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

This is an example of being justified [declared righteous] by doing the works of the law. No one can earn salvation by the keeping the law.

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:21-24

This is an example of the principle or law of faith, which requires the corresponding act of obedience to "activate" the faith we have when God speaks to us: It is called the obedience of faith and is what God has called all people to.

This is salvation by faith. The obedience of faith.


Can we discuss this principle from the scriptures so we can at least come to the same conclusion about the principle of faith.


We may not agree on OSAS or not, but maybe we can take a step closer to understand what each person's perspective is.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

What "works" are you referring to?

• The works of the law
• The works that earn a wage
• The work of obedience of faith

Let's look at scripture with it's context so we can determine together, the context of the word works, to see what Paul is saying.


I think we can agree, without obeying the Gospel, no man will be saved?


One scripture says we are justified by works, and another says we are not justified by works.

• What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Romans 4:1-4

This is an example of "works the earn" a wage: No one can work to earn salvation.

• knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

This is an example of being justified [declared righteous] by doing the works of the law. No one can earn salvation by the keeping the law.

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:21-24

This is an example of the principle or law of faith, which requires the corresponding act of obedience to "activate" the faith we have when God speaks to us: It is called the obedience of faith and is what God has called all people to.

This is salvation by faith. The obedience of faith.


Can we discuss this principle from the scriptures so we can at least come to the same conclusion about the principle of faith.


We may not agree on OSAS or not, but maybe we can take a step closer to understand what each person's perspective is.



JLB

James 2:20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. (NIV)

Works has , exactly, not a darn thing to do with Salvation. A saved man or woman will perform works for the LORD because for the the love for God. And in other places we find that we will be rewarded in Heaven for our works done for the Glory of the LORD and if we do this for the Profit and not Glory of our Father, as many do when they know they are watched, the work counts for naught. Our place in Heaven is secure, the moment we believe and the works must come from the heart to affect our position or, as some foolish people, think of it, our rating. If we are working for position, it will all burn up

 

[FreeGrace]

Rom. 11;29 refers to the covenant God made with Jacob

No it doesn't. It's a declarative statement about the gifts of God, 3 of which Paul had already described within his epistle to the Romans.

especially the call and the gifts. You've taken a statement about God's word and made it into a statement about eternal life.

Because that is exactly how Paul meant it. There is nothing in the immediate context of Romans 11 to conclude the very narrow meaning some would like (force) it to mean.

Paul mentioned 3 specific gifts that are from God; in 1:11, 3:24, and 6:23. He obviously had them in mind when he penned 11:29.

This verse says nothing about losing eternal life so you can argue it can't be lost.

God's gifts are irrevocable. Period. Eternal life is a gift of God. Period. Therefore, eternal life, being a gift of God, is irrevocable. Period.

Question #1 for you. If salvation can be lost, then that means that some recipients of eternal life will perish. Right?

So then, please explain why you directly oppose what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, when He said "I give them (recipients) eternal life, and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

I eagerly await an explanation.

Eph.1:13-14 Paul speaks of being in Christ to receive the Holy Spirit.

No, this is a misread of the verses. It says the one "having believed" (aorist) IS marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

What did Jesus promise about the Holy Spirit? That He would be with us FOREVER, is all. John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Does Jesus keep all of His promises?

But what did Jesus say about remaining in him?

This is a change in subject. Eph 1:13,14 says the one "having believed" (aorist) has a GUARANTEED INHERITANCE for the day of redemption. How is this not a GUARANTEE of redemption itself??

How can one's inheritance be GUARANTEED while their own salvation is not guaranteed? Does that even make sense? No.

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

This is an agricultural metaphor about service, or lack of service.

Let's look at the context of John 15:
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean (saved) because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing (bear no fruit).
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

In these 8 verses, "fruit" is mentioned or referenced 8 times. That's the point of the text; to bear fruit.

Jesus wasn't saying one must be saved to bear fruit. He was saying that the saved person must "remain" or "abide" in Him, which is FELLOWSHIP, in order to bear fruit.

Question #2: can a believer, who is out of fellowship with the Lord, bear fruit? yes or no.

Being out of fellowship looks like grieving the Holy Spirit from Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. btw, notice that even those who do this, are still sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 1:13,14)

It also looks like quenching the Spirit from 1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

Question: is a believer who grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit IN fellowship with the Lord, or OUT OF fellowship with the Lord?

If a man does not remain in him, he is cast forth as a branch, broken off and burned - Destroyed. Consumed.

Why the necessity to see every reference to fire or burning as hell itself? There is no need.

Please explain Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire.

Question #3: does everyone go to hell?

If not, please how to determine whether "fire" refers to hell or not?

So the security you keep talking about is only in Christ.

Of course it is. And from Eph 1:13,14, Eph 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, the day of redemotion is GUARANTEED for the one "having believed". That means believers are sealed IN CHRIST for the day of redemption, GUARANTEED.

There's no security for those who do not remain in Him.

This is a false statement. Even those out of fellowship (do not remain in Him) are STILL GUARANTEED the day of redemption.

And to believe in him is to believe in the Word of God - trust him, keep his sayings, follow him, do what he said.

Ok. Then why not believe the guaranteed sealing of the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption then?

Or what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish, in Jn10:28?

You've misunderstood some of what Jesus said, and plainly disbelieved other things He said. That is not consistent.

I've asked 3 questions. I'm hoping for a response to the questions.

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
"So, I'll summarize. In 2 Cor 5:10, we know that all believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

What it plainly doesn't say is that entrance into heaven is based on "whether our deeds are good or bad"."

I think you are confusing before hearing the good news and after hearing the good news. re. Salvation

Deeds done either time have NO EFFECT on our salvation. Why would anyone believe otherwise?

Our deeds done before hearing the good news do not count for salvation.

Why would anyone believe that deeds after salvation "count for salvation"?

But after hearing the good news, what excuse can a person have for not doing what Jesus said?

The Bible says that no one has any excuse. But what's the point here?

 

[JLB]

Works has , exactly, not a darn thing to do with Salvation.

The work of obedience has everything to do with salvation.

The works that earn does not.

Here is an example.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, which by default is denying Satan as your lord.

This is the obedient response to the Gospel command repent.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

No it doesn't. It's a declarative statement about the gifts of God, 3 of which Paul had already described within his epistle to the Romans.


Because that is exactly how Paul meant it. There is nothing in the immediate context of Romans 11 to conclude the very narrow meaning some would like (force) it to mean.

Paul mentioned 3 specific gifts that are from God; in 1:11, 3:24, and 6:23. He obviously had them in mind when he penned 11:29.


God's gifts are irrevocable. Period. Eternal life is a gift of God. Period. Therefore, eternal life, being a gift of God, is irrevocable. Period.

Question #1 for you. If salvation can be lost, then that means that some recipients of eternal life will perish. Right?

So then, please explain why you directly oppose what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, when He said "I give them (recipients) eternal life, and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

I eagerly await an explanation.


No, this is a misread of the verses. It says the one "having believed" (aorist) IS marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

What did Jesus promise about the Holy Spirit? That He would be with us FOREVER, is all. John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Does Jesus keep all of His promises?


This is a change in subject. Eph 1:13,14 says the one "having believed" (aorist) has a GUARANTEED INHERITANCE for the day of redemption. How is this not a GUARANTEE of redemption itself??

How can one's inheritance be GUARANTEED while their own salvation is not guaranteed? Does that even make sense? No.


This is an agricultural metaphor about service, or lack of service.

Let's look at the context of John 15:
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean (saved) because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing (bear no fruit).
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

In these 8 verses, "fruit" is mentioned or referenced 8 times. That's the point of the text; to bear fruit.

Jesus wasn't saying one must be saved to bear fruit. He was saying that the saved person must "remain" or "abide" in Him, which is FELLOWSHIP, in order to bear fruit.

Question #2: can a believer, who is out of fellowship with the Lord, bear fruit? yes or no.

Being out of fellowship looks like grieving the Holy Spirit from Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. btw, notice that even those who do this, are still sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 1:13,14)

It also looks like quenching the Spirit from 1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

Question: is a believer who grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit IN fellowship with the Lord, or OUT OF fellowship with the Lord?


Why the necessity to see every reference to fire or burning as hell itself? There is no need.

Please explain Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire.

Question #3: does everyone go to hell?

If not, please how to determine whether "fire" refers to hell or not?


Of course it is. And from Eph 1:13,14, Eph 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, the day of redemotion is GUARANTEED for the one "having believed". That means believers are sealed IN CHRIST for the day of redemption, GUARANTEED.


This is a false statement. Even those out of fellowship (do not remain in Him) are STILL GUARANTEED the day of redemption.


Ok. Then why not believe the guaranteed sealing of the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption then?

Or what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish, in Jn10:28?

You've misunderstood some of what Jesus said, and plainly disbelieved other things He said. That is not consistent.

I've asked 3 questions. I'm hoping for a response to the questions.

AMEN! Are you in my class or were you?

 

[JLB]

Question #1 for you. If salvation can be lost, then that means that some recipients of eternal life will perish. Right?

Not at all.

What we have now in this life is salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

This by default means we have the hope of salvation when He returns to Judge the living and the dead.

• If you still have faith for salvation then by default you do not have what you are hoping for yet.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


This simple understanding of what faith is, completely annihilates OSAS.


We will have the salvation we are hoping for when Jesus Christ returns and raises us from the dead and we will have an immortal body that will not die anymore.

Until that Day, we have faith for salvation through His work on the cross, even the forgiveness of sins.

• so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Our job now in this life is to continue in the faith, the very substance of the salvation we are hoping for, even in the face of persecution and death.



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

James 2:20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. (NIV)

Works has , exactly, not a darn thing to do with Salvation. A saved man or woman will perform works for the LORD because for the the love for God. And in other places we find that we will be rewarded in Heaven for our works done for the Glory of the LORD and if we do this for the Profit and not Glory of our Father, as many do when they know they are watched, the work counts for naught. Our place in Heaven is secure, the moment we believe and the works must come from the heart to affect our position or, as some foolish people, think of it, our rating. If we are working for position, it will all burn up

 

[FreeGrace]

AMEN! Are you in my class or were you?

No, sir. Where do you teach?

 

[th1b.taylor]

The work of obedience has everything to do with salvation.

The works that earn does not.

Here is an example.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, which by default is denying Satan as your lord.

This is the obedient response to the Gospel command repent.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.



JLB

Your issue is context, you are ignoring the Greater Context. The Bible Jesus and all of the disciples taught from is the first 39 books of the Christian Bible and the following 27 are commentary, written under the inspiration of God/Jesus.

With all of that said, the Bible's Greater Context begins with, "In the beginning..." and runs through the very last word of The Revelation 22. But why are you seeking to change the subject to Repentance?