When does a believer receive eternal life?

[FreeGrace]

Not at all.

What we have now in this life is salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

This by default means we have the hope of salvation when He returns to Judge the living and the dead.

De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life.

Why disagree with Scripture?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Why would I now hope for what I already have?? That makes no sense.

What I have is a very confident expectation of (meaning of hope in the Greek) of eternity with God.

This simple understanding of what faith is, completely annihilates OSAS.

Not even close. Nothing can "annihilate" the truth of God's word.

OSNAS is in direct opposition to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. OSNAS claims that a saved person can perish.

Jesus said the exact opposite; that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28

We will have the salvation we are hoping for when Jesus Christ returns and raises us from the dead and we will have an immortal body that will not die anymore.

Sure. A future state. But we are STILL saved right now. We're not waiting to be saved. We ARE saved.

 

[Papa Zoom]

God saves. God keeps. Those who follow Jesus, follow. Those who don't follow, never were.

The problem with those that promote OSNAS is they look at the externals. That's not what matters to God. It's all a matter of the heart. A follower follows. Those that walk away had a heart problem. They never were. Those that are truly saved are truly changed by the Holy Spirit. It's an inner change and it's evidenced by a life long following of Jesus - life long belief. Otherwise you never were.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

This is the mistake the ONSNAS makes. They look at the wrong things.

Romans 8:28-31 ESV / 19 .

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Notice the chain. If you are predestined by God, you WILL be glorified.

What a waste of time OSNAS is. All these great promises to believers and a few of you choose to regurgitate over and over and over the same things.

Christians! Live in light of who you are in Christ and IGNORE those that would diminish the Grace of God!

 

[th1b.taylor]

No, sir. Where do you teach?

Magnolia, Texas. I have read many of your posts and you appear to not belong to either of the major stances but accept every word as God's Scripture and finding no contradiction in it. I make you to be a Christian that goes to the Local Church of your choice, as do I. I sometimes tell folks I am a Baptist but that is not true, I am a Bible believing Christian that goes to worship in a Baptist Church. I have or have had fellowship with people from all of the major denominations and most of all, with Jesus. It saddens me that so many are in church instead of becoming the Church.

You seem to be very well grounded!

 

[JLB]

Your issue is context, you are ignoring the Greater Context. The Bible Jesus and all of the disciples taught from is the first 39 books of the Christian Bible and the following 27 are commentary, written under the inspiration of God/Jesus.

With all of that said, the Bible's Greater Context begins with, "In the beginning..." and runs through the very last word of The Revelation 22. But why are you seeking to change the subject to Repentance?

Do you believe a person can be saved without obeying the Gospel?



JLB

 

[JLB]

De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life.

Why disagree with Scripture?

Why do you refer to faith as wimpy and wishful thinking.

I suppose this is why you say a person does not need to continue in the faith to continue to be saved.

At least now we can all see your disdain for faith.

Why would I now hope for what I already have?? That makes no sense.

What I have is a very confident expectation of (meaning of hope in the Greek) of eternity with God.

If you have faith in Christ for salvation, then you have the hope of salvation, when Jesus returns and you stand before Him to be Judged according to your deeds.

What I have is a very confident expectation of (meaning of hope in the Greek) of eternity with God.

Why does one hope for something they already have?


Case closed.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

• But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

We are eagerly waiting for our salvation with perseverance, which means we do not have salvation, but we have the hope of salvation to come.

We all will receive salvation in the end, on the last Day when Jesus returns and Judges the living and the dead, if we continue in the faith and are not moved away from the HOPE OF THE GOSPEL.

• And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

JLB

 

[chessman]

No reference to the Day of Judgement in your post.

Bingo! There is now (right now!) no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

• The works of the law

• The works that earn a wage

• The work of obedience of faith

Surprise, surprise, you forgot one (as the anti-OSAS position requires);

• The work of God

John 6:28-29 So they said to him, “What shall we do that we can accomplish the works of God?” [good question for any anti-OSAS proponent to ask themselves] Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.” ​

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to cause all grace to abound to you, so that in everything at all times, because you have enough of everything, you may overflow in every good work.
​

Genuine believers have (now, not later after working out your salvation) enough of everything because God is the One able to cause it to be so (not you or your works).

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 for which purpose we also pray always for you, that you may be considered worthy of the calling of our God, and he might fulfill every desire for goodness and work of faith with power, in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Why would Paul pray to God that they may be considered worthy if it's their works of any kind that earns them worthiness??? Why not just tell them to work really hard to be considered worthy by God?

 

[chessman]

Do you think genuine believers can lose their eternal life after the Judgment? If so, why. If not, why?

No answer???

They show us we have salvation by faith and we are given His Spirit to lead us in the way of righteousness.

Bingo. I am convinced of this same thing plus more. Now that's faith:

Philippians 1:6 convinced of this same thing, that the one who began a good work in you will finish it until the day of Christ Jesus,​

 

[chessman]

They show us we have salvation by faith and we are given His Spirit to lead us in the way of righteousness.

We are eagerly waiting for our salvation with perseverance,

We have salvation one day yet are eagerly awaiting it the next. Now there's a contradiction.

 

[billybalke]

Bingo! There is now (right now!) no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.







Surprise, surprise, you forgot one (as the anti-OSAS position requires);

• The work of God

John 6:28-29 So they said to him, “What shall we do that we can accomplish the works of God?” [good question for any anti-OSAS proponent to ask themselves] Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.” ​

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to cause all grace to abound to you, so that in everything at all times, because you have enough of everything, you may overflow in every good work.
​

Genuine believers have (now, not later after working out your salvation) enough of everything because God is the One able to cause it to be so (not you or your works).

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 for which purpose we also pray always for you, that you may be considered worthy of the calling of our God, and he might fulfill every desire for goodness and work of faith with power, in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Why would Paul pray to God that they may be considered worthy if it's their works of any kind that earns them worthiness??? Why not just tell them to work really hard to be considered worthy by God?

Jn.6:28,29. But "believe" is something YOU DO! The same is said of baptism, its something YOU DO, but it is a work of God!
Be blessed, Billly
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OF JEW
ROM.16:16

 

[chessman]

But "believe" is something YOU DO!

So is thirsting something we do:

John 4:10, 14 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”​

John 7:37-39 Now on the last day of the feast—the great day—Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let him drink, the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts.

​

 

[MarkT]

No it doesn't. It's a declarative statement about the gifts of God, 3 of which Paul had already described within his epistle to the Romans.


Because that is exactly how Paul meant it. There is nothing in the immediate context of Romans 11 to conclude the very narrow meaning some would like (force) it to mean.

Paul mentioned 3 specific gifts that are from God; in 1:11, 3:24, and 6:23. He obviously had them in mind when he penned 11:29.


God's gifts are irrevocable. Period. Eternal life is a gift of God. Period. Therefore, eternal life, being a gift of God, is irrevocable. Period.

Question #1 for you. If salvation can be lost, then that means that some recipients of eternal life will perish. Right?

So then, please explain why you directly oppose what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, when He said "I give them (recipients) eternal life, and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

I eagerly await an explanation.


No, this is a misread of the verses. It says the one "having believed" (aorist) IS marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

What did Jesus promise about the Holy Spirit? That He would be with us FOREVER, is all. John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Does Jesus keep all of His promises?


This is a change in subject. Eph 1:13,14 says the one "having believed" (aorist) has a GUARANTEED INHERITANCE for the day of redemption. How is this not a GUARANTEE of redemption itself??

How can one's inheritance be GUARANTEED while their own salvation is not guaranteed? Does that even make sense? No.


This is an agricultural metaphor about service, or lack of service.

Let's look at the context of John 15:
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean (saved) because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing (bear no fruit).
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

In these 8 verses, "fruit" is mentioned or referenced 8 times. That's the point of the text; to bear fruit.

Jesus wasn't saying one must be saved to bear fruit. He was saying that the saved person must "remain" or "abide" in Him, which is FELLOWSHIP, in order to bear fruit.

Question #2: can a believer, who is out of fellowship with the Lord, bear fruit? yes or no.

Being out of fellowship looks like grieving the Holy Spirit from Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. btw, notice that even those who do this, are still sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 1:13,14)

It also looks like quenching the Spirit from 1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

Question: is a believer who grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit IN fellowship with the Lord, or OUT OF fellowship with the Lord?


Why the necessity to see every reference to fire or burning as hell itself? There is no need.

Please explain Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire.

Question #3: does everyone go to hell?

If not, please how to determine whether "fire" refers to hell or not?


Of course it is. And from Eph 1:13,14, Eph 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, the day of redemotion is GUARANTEED for the one "having believed". That means believers are sealed IN CHRIST for the day of redemption, GUARANTEED.


This is a false statement. Even those out of fellowship (do not remain in Him) are STILL GUARANTEED the day of redemption.


Ok. Then why not believe the guaranteed sealing of the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption then?

Or what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish, in Jn10:28?

You've misunderstood some of what Jesus said, and plainly disbelieved other things He said. That is not consistent.

I've asked 3 questions. I'm hoping for a response to the questions.

The covenant is right there for everyone to see. Rom. 11:26-27 The subject is Israel's standing with respect to the covenant. He keeps talking about Israel's standing. ie. "have they stumbled so as to fall?" Rom.11:11 And, "regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake." Rom. 11:28 And, "they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers." It's in this context that Paul says, "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." It's clear he is talking about Israel's standing and God keeping his promise to Jacob. If you want to talk about God's promise being irrevocable, that's OK. We know God keeps his promise.

Paul's concern for his people is evident in Rom. 11:1,2 "I ask then, has God rejected his people?" He says, "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew."

There's nothing in his statement to say eternal life can not be lost.

 

[Edward]

Some here claim that a sinful lifestyle will result in loss of salvation. That is works based.


Absolutely. This is about eternal rewards for faithfulness and obedience.


Yes, this is commanded in the Bible.

Show me the scripture which we are to occupy...on our couch doing nothing...ok?

Wow, you have a lot to say in these different posts. I'll just address them all here. You know...yeah, you are angry and accusatory, but you veil it subtly and speak in the third person instead of actually name me. Even though, you are and that doesn't make me a snowflake (Lol) but merely perceptive. But no offense taken, I just heard your anger or frustration in your posts and wondered why because, we're just talking and it can be done without angst. Probably a good idea to speak third person because of the ToS and the mods and stuff. But let us strive to keep in ind that we are Brothers in Christ, and to be of one body in spirit and not be divided in communication, for a divided house can not stand. Unification is very important as far as Scripture goes. As easy as walking in love towards others and Brothers and Sisters in particular...as you would love yourself. And then, it's easy to not take offense and edification continues increased for all. And the Love of Christ then flows through us to our fellow man and Brothers. So if I have offended you, let me the first to aplogize because such was not my intent. Just a desire to speak to others what the Lord has shown to me. I will never (probably) be correct 100%, but much of what I say is true.

The Lord speaks to me daily of late. He's taught me how to hear Him better. So the Holy Spirit says that He will lead us into all truth...His words, not mine. And I read scriptures and I do not read other non biblical books, or anything new age or anything of the sort...so I must assume that I will not be led down a wrong path. The Lord doesn't roll like that. He promised. Well, I do read Enoch and Jubilees some, but I'm not scared of them and I do think they are good truthful books, whether they were canonized or not. Those books may be non-canonized, but they are most certainly not anti-Biblical. It has to agree with scripture, and may not disagree with any portion of it...and no matter what anyone else says, I have read them and it does not disparage the canonized scriptures in any way. If any have heard this to be so, that Enoch has untruths in it or doesn't agree to scripture...let me ask if you have read it, and come to this conclusion or taken a mans word for it? They only valid criticism of Enoch to be considered (to Me) is oh a contradiction? Please quote the chapter/verse and let's go over this to prove one way or the other...No one has done that yet. Enoch wrong? Where? I can't find it, and I did my homework!

About your quoted post here, Are we understanding that a "sinful lifestyle" and "sin" to be different things? for anyone to stumble and sin, like we ALL do, (even King David!) but then repent and ask forgiveness...and get back on that horse. Now, a...sinful lifestyle is a horse of a different color. Someone who practices sin regularly. This is a willful turning away from God and...where (at least fear) that we could die in this unrepentant state. Then be cast aside as a withered branch to be burnt. Like I said, I do hope that you are right on this one Brother.

Industrialized Church has taught us all to have no...fear of God, holiness, purity. I learned what 'Pray without Ceasing' really means lately. It is...well, firstly we do know that prayer is not a monologue. Prayer is a dialogue. We pray to our Lord (who is omnipotent and hears all) and knowing He is present (really REALLY) with us (In Christ/Christ in us)...and we pause in prayer to listen for an answer. And give him a bit of time. Face it, if He says wait a minute...it could be a few months! Lol. But usually He answers right away.

So instead of praying on our knees in the morning and then going to work or play and forgetting His presence...(!)...we continue to stay focused on Him and take Him with us. He is in me, He is on my right side. He is THERE. And I keep a portion of my mind upon my friend who is with me. and talk to Him all day, and listen to Him all day. Expecting an answer. Then it comes. So to, pray without ceasing means to hang out with the lord all day long every day. I pour my heart out to Him as I drive around and stuff. I learned to speak candidly with Him, as I do friends. I believe He likes it this way. He speaks more and more often it seems.

But I remember Peter when He walked on the water towards Jesus. He did fine...he was walking on the water, it says so. Then he took his eyes off of Jesus, and immediately began to sink. There's a very good lesson in there for us. When He speaks to me, He doesn't lie to me. I have to trust that He is teaching me right. Most of it is a wee but different than I was taught when I was young...But it has to be true because I'm doing what He wants. He wants to be invited to come along with me...to lead me. Be my friend.

I digress. Rambling a little bit. Sorry.

 

[JLB]

Bingo! There is now (right now!) no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

A. I asked for references for the Day of Judgement which says we will be judged on that Day according to the thoughts of our mind.

B. You left out half of verse 1 of Romans 8.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Since you have not provided any verse about the Day of Judgement and us being judged according to the thoughts of our mind then I will conclude you have none and continue discussing the Day when Jesus returns and gives eternal life to those -

• who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



So we see that eternal life will be given to those Christian's walk according to the Spirit.

While those who walk according to the flesh to practice the works of the flesh will indeed be condemned.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now, a...sinful lifestyle is a horse of a different color. Someone who practices sin regularly. This is a willful turning away from God and...where (at least fear) that we could die in this unrepentant state. Then be cast aside as a withered branch to be burnt.

 

[Edward]

...and, it's the strangest thing...along those thoughts...I began to understand fear and trembling. How would that be, to be expecting to go to heaven...and be rejected for something? What a terrible thought. Lord, don't let me miss the mark! As uncomfortable a possibility that it is, I began to climb the mountain of God in fear...and then...peace and joy, and the reassurance that no one can snatch me from His hand.

A sinful lifestyle, as discussed above is not someone snatching us from His hand. It is a willful turning away from our Lord. Perhaps that is where some of the others confusion arises from. I will...pray for them all.

 

[chessman]

who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Who are people that do not walk according to the flesh? Correct answer, those who are in Christ Jesus. In correct answer, those who are in their works.

 

[MarkT]

Deeds done either time have NO EFFECT on our salvation. Why would anyone believe otherwise?


Why would anyone believe that deeds after salvation "count for salvation"?


The Bible says that no one has any excuse. But what's the point here?

Because Jesus said, 'love God. Do unto others. Follow me.' It's about entering the kingdom. You have to do what he said. A believer who doesn't do what he said is grieving the Spirit of God.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled and grieved his holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[chessman]

I will...pray for them all.

Why pray to God??? Do you expect God to do something about someone's sinful lifestyle (someone else of course, not yours)?

 

[billybalke]

So is thirsting something we do:

John 4:10, 14 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”​

John 7:37-39 Now on the last day of the feast—the great day—Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let him drink, the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts.

​

I suppose then you accept that baptism is a work of God and not man.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW

 

[chessman]

I suppose then you accept that baptism is a work of God and not man.

Of course, doesn't every Bible believer?

Matthew 3:11 I [John the Baptist] baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. ​