When does a believer receive eternal life?

[billybalke]

Of course, doesn't every Bible believer?

Matthew 3:11 I [John the Baptist] baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. ​

Thats true of both the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT AND JEW

 

[MarkT]

None of our deeds count for salvation. "not of works so that no one can boast" The Bible is pretty clear on that point. Works fall under another category but they do not count in any way for salvation.

Acts of kindness and mercy certainly do count.
Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Why do you think God gave us his Spirit if our deeds don't count for anything? If our deeds don't count for anything, then how is it he will say 'well done'?
Matthew 25:21
His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’

 

[FreeGrace]

Magnolia, Texas. I have read many of your posts and you appear to not belong to either of the major stances but accept every word as God's Scripture and finding no contradiction in it.

Yes, sir!

I make you to be a Christian that goes to the Local Church of your choice, as do I. I sometimes tell folks I am a Baptist but that is not true, I am a Bible believing Christian that goes to worship in a Baptist Church.

I think of myself as a Biblicist. I've been in many Baptist churches, though, and my current church is non denominational but has the "flavor" of a Baptist church.

I have or have had fellowship with people from all of the major denominations and most of all, with Jesus. It saddens me that so many are in church instead of becoming the Church.

So true.

You seem to be very well grounded!

Well, I was dirt this morning.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe a person can be saved without obeying the Gospel?
JLB

Depends on how one defines "obey the gospel". What's your definition?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life.

Why do you refer to faith as wimpy and wishful thinking.

Where would one get the notion that I referred to "faith" as wimply and wishful thinking. I do wish my posts would be at least read B4 one attempts a response. But everyone else who read my post knows what my point was. It was in regard to what seems to be your view about hoping for salvation, you know, somewhere at the end of the rainbow, not that those words were used. But your posts are clear about hoping for salvation when you die. Which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches about eternal salvation.

I suppose this is why you say a person does not need to continue in the faith to continue to be saved.

But you know better than that.

At least now we can all see your disdain for faith.

What a totally dishonest statement. But I'm not surprised.

btw, I also said this:
"Why disagree with Scripture?"

Seems my points are never addressed. Probably because they weren't even read B4 responding "from the hip".

The question is raised because the idea that a saved person can perish was directly contradicted by Jesus, and for the life of me, I cannot understand how or why a professing Christian would harbor a view in direct opposition to the One they call Lord.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But your claims are quite clear that your view is the exact opposite; that some recipients of eternal life can and do perish.

If you have faith in Christ for salvation, then you have the hope of salvation, when Jesus returns and you stand before Him to be Judged according to your deeds.

Well, at least this is a bit more clear. Yes, "when Jesus returns and we all stand before Him". My hope is what is defined as a confident expectation. And since salvation is eternal and is given WHEN one believes, I have no worries in that regard.

But your view is that salvation can be lost. So what kind of hope is in that idea? Certainly it cannot be confident expectation of eternal salvation, as I have. So it's got to be more of the wishy-washy kind of wimpy wishful thinking kind of hope, the type of hope that is used today for "hope", but clearly not the Bible type of hope.

Why does one hope for something they already have?

I guess they'd be kinda stupid.

Case closed.

Rather, eyes and ears closed.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Are you now living in eternity, in your resurrection body? Of course not. That's what we have confident expectation (hope) of.

But as far as my eternal residence, I NOW have confident expectation of it, for Jesus promises that to all who have been given eternal life.

How can your theology produce the Bible kind of hope, since your view is that salvation can be lost? There's no confident expectation when one thinks that salvation can be lost. There can be only fear and trepidation in such a theology.

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Are are you hoping for? To get into heaven, finally, after a life of probation, or are you confidently expecting eternity itself? No need to answer, as it is clear what your theology MUST think; hoping (wishful thinking) to get into heaven.

Not me. I KNOW I will be in heaven. What I'm confidently expecting is to experience my new resurrection body IN eternity. Something your theology cannot have any confidence in.

We are eagerly waiting for our salvation with perseverance, which means we do not have salvation, but we have the hope of salvation to come.

See what I mean? Even though you profess to be a believer, you don't even consider yourself to be yet saved. If you "do not have salvation', that means you are NOT YET saved. Wow. Certainly NO hope in that.

otoh, I AM SAVED. I know it. Because the Bible SAYS all who have believed ARE saved, HAVE eternal life, and SHALL NEVER perish.

We all will receive salvation in the end, on the last Day when Jesus returns and Judges the living and the dead, if we continue in the faith and are not moved away from the HOPE OF THE GOSPEL.

Once again, right. "if we continue in the faith". No hope in that, for sure. But again, you've just misread and misunderstood that verse. It clearly wasn't about getting salvation down the road "if we continue in the faith".

Col 1 -
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Now, read the red words and you'll see what God will do for those who "continue in the faith".

I'm very glad that the Bible gives me a confident expectation of eternity and a new resurrection body.

 

[FreeGrace]

The covenant is right there for everyone to see.

Of course it is. And...it isn't referred to as some gift either. So, when Paul mentions the gifts of God in 11:29, we have to go back to see what he considered gifts of God.

And, guess what. The covenant is NOT described as a gift ANYWHERE in the Bible.

There's nothing in his statement to say eternal life can not be lost.

It's not there for those who don't want to see it. Just look at what Paul did describe as gifts of God. Those are what Paul had in mind when he penned 11:29.

But the problem is that it contradicts and refutes the notion that salvation can be lost, so those who believe that are forced to limit 11:29 to a few verses just before it. Even though Paul never used the word "gift" after 6:23, until 11:29.

There is no justification for your view.

 

[FreeGrace]

...and, it's the strangest thing...along those thoughts...I began to understand fear and trembling. How would that be, to be expecting to go to heaven...and be rejected for something?

Have you considered John 3:18? " Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

That's it. If you have believed, you are not condemned. There is nothing to fear about where you'll spend eternity.

But...one has to actually believe the promise of God. Those who don't will fear and tremble.

 

[MarkT]

Of course it is. And...it isn't referred to as some gift either. So, when Paul mentions the gifts of God in 11:29, we have to go back to see what he considered gifts of God.

And, guess what. The covenant is NOT described as a gift ANYWHERE in the Bible.


It's not there for those who don't want to see it. Just look at what Paul did describe as gifts of God. Those are what Paul had in mind when he penned 11:29.

But the problem is that it contradicts and refutes the notion that salvation can be lost, so those who believe that are forced to limit 11:29 to a few verses just before it. Even though Paul never used the word "gift" after 6:23, until 11:29.

There is no justification for your view.

Of course not. I didn't say the covenant was the gift. I said the gifts and the call of God were promised to Jacob and his descendants according to the covenant.

You know he said the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Why do you leave out 'the call of God'?

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course not. I didn't say the covenant was the gift. I said the gifts and the call of God were promised to Jacob and his descendants according to the covenant.

I know you said that. But the Bible doesn't say that.

btw, where does the Bible describe gifts promised to Jacob according to the covenant?

Where does the Bible describe anything from the covenant as a gift?

You know he said the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Why do you leave out 'the call of God'?

I was emphasizing eternal security. Of course the gifts AND call of God are irrevocable.

He doesn't take back His gifts nor His call.

Paul described 3 of God's gifts: spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. None of these gifts are revocable.

 

[Runner]

In a nut shell, my view is this: God saves, God keeps. When I read the verses I quoted, and see we are sealed by the HS, adopted as sons, the work in us will be completed by HIM, and on and on, I can't help but conclude that a truly saved person will walk in HIM and endure - by the power of God it will be done. This seems clear from the whole of Scripture.

Yes, I agree. One OSAS view is the Calvinistic one: God's predestined elect will persevere to the end because they are God's predestined elect and God's election cannot be defeated by man; if someone appears to fall away, then by definition he or she was not one of God's predestined elect in the first place. When I was with Campus Crusade and my OSAS understanding wasn't based on Calvinistic notions of predestination, the perspective was more that if someone's life showed little or no fruit (or worse), the reality of his or her repentance and acceptance of Christ in the first place might be open to question and, if so, his or her salvation would be open to question.

The typical OSNAS position seems very close to this - the fruit one produces is the evidence of the sincerity and continuing reality of one's belief. It is a perversion of the OSNAS position to suggest that those who sincerely repent and turn to Christ then spend the rest of their lives on a "works treadmill," trying to do enough good works to maintain their salvation in good standing. They simply spend the rest of their lives continuing to believe and showing they continue to believe.

Your statement that "a truly saved person will walk in HIM and endure" could fit any of the above models.

The only view that seems out of sync to me is the extreme Free Grace OSAS view - i.e., if one sincerely repents and accepts Christ at 9 a.m. on Tuesday, the entire rest of his or her life - belief and conduct alike - is irrelevant to salvation. Sincerely repenting and accepting Christ at 9 a.m. on Tuesday, renouncing it all at 9 a.m. on Wednesday, and spending the rest of one's life as the leader of the local Hell's Angels chapter would be no basis for the individual or anyone else to question the reality of his salvation.

One can reach this extreme understanding if one reads some of the "believe" verses woodenly, but to me those verses make more sense (and gibe with the "OSNAS verses" and the historical understanding) if "believe" is read the way the Greeks understood it - not as an action that occurs at a specific point in time, such as 9 a.m. on Tuesday, but as a continuity that commences at 9 a.m. on Tuesday and continues until the action is completed. One "runs" a 10K by completing it, not by taking the first step.

And we who believe, ought to be encouraging one another unto good works instead of fighting over an theological issue that will never be resolved. If only the same amount of effort were put into serving others in the way Christ called us to do. That would be something.

Absolutely. As Elvis Costello sings, "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused." Threads like this can actually can be quite humorous if one sees them for what they are. One unfortunate aspect of many folks' Christianity is that it is relentlessly grim.

 

[chessman]

I didn't say the covenant was the gift.

The covenants take away ____ what?

Old covenant :

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their ____.​

New covenant :

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the ___ of the world.​

OSAS: The Lamb takes away the sins of genuine believers.

Anti-OSAS:
The sins of the world takes away God from genuine believers.

A sinful lifestyle, as discussed above is not someone snatching us from His hand.

 

[MarkT]

I know you said that. But the Bible doesn't say that.

btw, where does the Bible describe gifts promised to Jacob according to the covenant?

Where does the Bible describe anything from the covenant as a gift?


I was emphasizing eternal security. Of course the gifts AND call of God are irrevocable.

He doesn't take back His gifts nor His call.

Paul described 3 of God's gifts: spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. None of these gifts are revocable.

The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. I'm just saying what it does say.

Paul said, 'as it is written'. So this was written somewhere - "the Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." The words came by a prophet, probably David, regarding Jacob called Israel.

Psalm 53:6
O that deliverance for Israel would come from Zion! When God restores the fortunes of his people, Jacob will rejoice and Israel be glad.

To follow Paul's reasoning. He said, "As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

So regarding election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. He's saying the gifts and the call were promised Jacob called Israel, even though Israel (I'm referring to the nation) was disobedient. So even though they were disobedient, God will keep his word to Jacob.

 

[MarkT]

Paul described 3 of God's gifts: spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. None of these gifts are revocable.

More than that, he describes the gifts of the Spirit in Rom. 12:6-8 And elsewhere,

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

1 Corinthians 14:1
Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

Hebrews 2:4
while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.

 

[JLB]

Where would one get the notion that I referred to "faith" as wimply and wishful thinking. I do wish my posts would be at least read B4 one attempts a response. But everyone else who read my post knows what my point was. It was in regard to what seems to be your view about hoping for salvation, you know, somewhere at the end of the rainbow, not that those words were used. But your posts are clear about hoping for salvation when you die. Which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches about eternal salvation.

I get the notion from a direct quote from your post.

Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it.

JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

This is an example of "works the earn" a wage: No one can work to earn salvation.

Can one 'work' to keep salvation?.....I believe that is the real question being asked........

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"De fault in this statement is that it is in direct opposition to the Bible. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life. Not some wimpy wishful thinking about some day having it. But RIGHT NOW possession of eternal life.

Where would one get the notion that I referred to "faith" as wimply and wishful thinking. I do wish my posts would be at least read B4 one attempts a response. But everyone else who read my post knows what my point was. It was in regard to what seems to be your view about hoping for salvation, you know, somewhere at the end of the rainbow, not that those words were used. But your posts are clear about hoping for salvation when you die. Which is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches about eternal salvation.


But you know better than that.


What a totally dishonest statement. But I'm not surprised.

btw, I also said this:
"Why disagree with Scripture?"

Seems my points are never addressed. Probably because they weren't even read B4 responding "from the hip".

The question is raised because the idea that a saved person can perish was directly contradicted by Jesus, and for the life of me, I cannot understand how or why a professing Christian would harbor a view in direct opposition to the One they call Lord.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But your claims are quite clear that your view is the exact opposite; that some recipients of eternal life can and do perish.


Well, at least this is a bit more clear. Yes, "when Jesus returns and we all stand before Him". My hope is what is defined as a confident expectation. And since salvation is eternal and is given WHEN one believes, I have no worries in that regard.

But your view is that salvation can be lost. So what kind of hope is in that idea? Certainly it cannot be confident expectation of eternal salvation, as I have. So it's got to be more of the wishy-washy kind of wimpy wishful thinking kind of hope, the type of hope that is used today for "hope", but clearly not the Bible type of hope.


I guess they'd be kinda stupid.


Rather, eyes and ears closed.


Are you now living in eternity, in your resurrection body? Of course not. That's what we have confident expectation (hope) of.

But as far as my eternal residence, I NOW have confident expectation of it, for Jesus promises that to all who have been given eternal life.

How can your theology produce the Bible kind of hope, since your view is that salvation can be lost? There's no confident expectation when one thinks that salvation can be lost. There can be only fear and trepidation in such a theology.


Are are you hoping for? To get into heaven, finally, after a life of probation, or are you confidently expecting eternity itself? No need to answer, as it is clear what your theology MUST think; hoping (wishful thinking) to get into heaven.

Not me. I KNOW I will be in heaven. What I'm confidently expecting is to experience my new resurrection body IN eternity. Something your theology cannot have any confidence in.


See what I mean? Even though you profess to be a believer, you don't even consider yourself to be yet saved. If you "do not have salvation', that means you are NOT YET saved. Wow. Certainly NO hope in that.

otoh, I AM SAVED. I know it. Because the Bible SAYS all who have believed ARE saved, HAVE eternal life, and SHALL NEVER perish.


Once again, right. "if we continue in the faith". No hope in that, for sure. But again, you've just misread and misunderstood that verse. It clearly wasn't about getting salvation down the road "if we continue in the faith".

All this opinion without any scripture.


Ill just take it to mean you have no answer to the scriptures I quoted that plainly refute your OSAS doctrine of man.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Can one 'work' to keep salvation?.....I believe that is the real question being asked........

As I said in my post.

• No one can "work to earn" salvation.
• No one is justified by keeping the law of Moses.

No one is saved apart from obeying the Gospel.


Would anyone like to discuss what obeying the Gospel entails?




JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

As I said in my post.

• No one can "work to earn" salvation.
• No one is justified by keeping the law of Moses.

No one is saved apart from obeying the Gospel.


Would anyone like to discuss what obeying the Gospel entails?




JLB

That is not the question I asked. Most here seem to agree that salvation is not earned, it is a gift. My question, and what most here seem to be debating, is can you keep salvation by works?

 

[JLB]

Depends on how one defines "obey the gospel". What's your definition?

There is only one command in the Gospel to be obeyed.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

• Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

• The road to Damascus -

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18



Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

• He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, Colossians 1:13

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

• The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. I'm just saying what it does say.

No you didn't.

Paul said, 'as it is written'. So this was written somewhere - "the Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." The words came by a prophet, probably David, regarding Jacob called Israel.

Yes, the Bible does say that. But there is no mention of "gifts" in that. So my point stands.

Psalm 53:6
O that deliverance for Israel would come from Zion! When God restores the fortunes of his people, Jacob will rejoice and Israel be glad.

Again, there is no mention of "gifts" here either.

To follow Paul's reasoning. He said, "As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

Again, there is NO mention of specific "gifts" in Rom 11. Your point is not taken.

You've not shown that 11:29 is about any gifts only to Jacob.

So regarding election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. He's saying the gifts and the call were promised Jacob called Israel, even though Israel (I'm referring to the nation) was disobedient. So even though they were disobedient, God will keep his word to Jacob.

What specific gifts and call were promised to Jacob called Israel? Please name them and cite where the Bible describes them.