When does growth feel like backsliding?

[Dave...]

Thoughts?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thoughts?

Growth in what ?
Growth in grace and knowledge never feel like backsliding.

 

[Dave...]

I'm thinking sanctification.

When it's mentioned in the Bible in the future tense, it's usually speaking of practical, or progressive sanctification. To borrow a phrase from Macarthur, that would be us "being conformed to what God already reckons us to be in Christ".

Whereas 'sanctification' in the past tense is usually speaking of the legality of our salvation, or the 'positional sanctification'.

So, bear with me... speaking of practical sanctification, it's a life long journey. It's the Holy Spirit peeling back the layers, so to speak, and revealing our sin to us. When we first come to Jesus in faith and submit to Him and the Gospel, we usually repent of every sin that we can think of. While also conceding that we may have missed a few. But I think that our sin runs much deeper than we first realize. And when this 'old sin', for lack of a better phrase, is revealed to us during this process of sanctification, this can be very depressing, and even give the illusion that we are backsliding, when in fact, we are growing.

Old sin that we keep repenting of over and over is not what I'm speaking of. And likewise, brand new sin is the same.

Example, when I say 'old sin', think of it like this. When we are young, it's all me-me-me. When we mature, it starts to be about other people too. Looking back, we may regret our selfishness and the selfish things we did when we were younger. It was always there, but being made aware allows us to make an effort not to be like that anymore, and regret when we were. Maybe not the best example but...

Being made aware of 'old sin' could just be the result of our growth in our understanding. Our job is to repent, ask for forgiveness, then wait for the next one. One things for sure, practical sanctification is a life long process. One that, as Christians we should welcome and be thankful, even though this process could be painful and discouraging.

So, maybe getting bombarded with this revealing of 'old sin', if we are not understanding what is happening, could lead us to believe that we are backsliding.

It's depressing, and should lead us to being poor in spirit. This is the state of mind Jesus wants us in "Blessed be the poor in Spirit. The opposite of self righteousness.

Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I guess what I'm saying is that "poor in spirit" can be a double edged sword. I always ask people who feel like the are backsliding; Is it the same sin over and over that you keep repenting of? Is it something new? Or is it old sin that you are just now being made aware of? I would think that the last example would be growth, and a good thing. If misunderstood, we could be getting depressed for something that is good.

Does that make sense?

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm thinking sanctification.

When it's mentioned in the Bible in the future tense, it's usually speaking of practical, or progressive sanctification. To borrow a phrase from Macarthur, that would be us "being conformed to what God already reckons us to be in Christ".

Whereas 'sanctification' in the past tense is usually speaking of the legality of our salvation, or the 'positional sanctification'.

So, bear with me... speaking of practical sanctification, it's a life long journey. It's the Holy Spirit peeling back the layers, so to speak, and revealing our sin to us. When we first come to Jesus in faith and submit to Him and the Gospel, we usually repent of every sin that we can think of. While also conceding that we may have missed a few. But I think that our sin runs much deeper than we first realize. And when this 'old sin', for lack of a better phrase, is revealed to us during this process of sanctification, this can be very depressing, and even give the illusion that we are backsliding, when in fact, we are growing.

Old sin that we keep repenting of over and over is not what I'm speaking of. And likewise, brand new sin is the same.

Example, when I say 'old sin', think of it like this. When we are young, it's all me-me-me. When we mature, it starts to be about other people too. Looking back, we may regret our selfishness and the selfish things we did when we were younger. It was always there, but being made aware allows us to make an effort not to be like that anymore, and regret when we were. Maybe not the best example but...

Being made aware of 'old sin' could just be the result of our growth in our understanding. Our job is to repent, ask for forgiveness, then wait for the next one. One things for sure, practical sanctification is a life long process. One that, as Christians we should welcome and be thankful, even though this process could be painful and discouraging.

So, maybe getting bombarded with this revealing of 'old sin', if we are not understanding what is happening, could lead us to believe that we are backsliding.

It's depressing, and should lead us to being poor in spirit. This is the state of mind Jesus wants us in "Blessed be the poor in Spirit. The opposite of self righteousness.

Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I guess what I'm saying is that "poor in spirit" can be a double edged sword. I always ask people who feel like the are backsliding; Is it the same sin over and over that you keep repenting of? Is it something new? Or is it old sin that you are just now being made aware of? I would think that the last example would be growth, and a good thing. If misunderstood, we could be getting depressed for something that is good.

Does that make sense?

Dave

You allude to sanctification like it hadn't yet occurred.
When the Lord's sanctifying blood was applied to my body, I was sanctified.
That happened at my baptism into Him and into His death.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm thinking sanctification.

When it's mentioned in the Bible in the future tense, it's usually speaking of practical, or progressive sanctification. To borrow a phrase from Macarthur, that would be us "being conformed to what God already reckons us to be in Christ".

Whereas 'sanctification' in the past tense is usually speaking of the legality of our salvation, or the 'positional sanctification'.

So, bear with me... speaking of practical sanctification, it's a life long journey. It's the Holy Spirit peeling back the layers, so to speak, and revealing our sin to us. When we first come to Jesus in faith and submit to Him and the Gospel, we usually repent of every sin that we can think of. While also conceding that we may have missed a few. But I think that our sin runs much deeper than we first realize. And when this 'old sin', for lack of a better phrase, is revealed to us during this process of sanctification, this can be very depressing, and even give the illusion that we are backsliding, when in fact, we are growing.

Old sin that we keep repenting of over and over is not what I'm speaking of. And likewise, brand new sin is the same.

Example, when I say 'old sin', think of it like this. When we are young, it's all me-me-me. When we mature, it starts to be about other people too. Looking back, we may regret our selfishness and the selfish things we did when we were younger. It was always there, but being made aware allows us to make an effort not to be like that anymore, and regret when we were. Maybe not the best example but...

Being made aware of 'old sin' could just be the result of our growth in our understanding. Our job is to repent, ask for forgiveness, then wait for the next one. One things for sure, practical sanctification is a life long process. One that, as Christians we should welcome and be thankful, even though this process could be painful and discouraging.

So, maybe getting bombarded with this revealing of 'old sin', if we are not understanding what is happening, could lead us to believe that we are backsliding.

It's depressing, and should lead us to being poor in spirit. This is the state of mind Jesus wants us in "Blessed be the poor in Spirit. The opposite of self righteousness.

Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I guess what I'm saying is that "poor in spirit" can be a double edged sword. I always ask people who feel like the are backsliding; Is it the same sin over and over that you keep repenting of? Is it something new? Or is it old sin that you are just now being made aware of? I would think that the last example would be growth, and a good thing. If misunderstood, we could be getting depressed for something that is good.

Does that make sense?

Dave

Insightful. The apostle Paul often denigrated himself, and I believe it was for the very same reasons. The closer you get to God, the more awful you can appear at times to yourself because your weaknesses and failings become all that much more apparent and glaring. But it is indeed a phase in sanctification, because you cannot address anything until you first begin to see it as God sees it.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for sharing.
- H

 

[Dave...]

You allude to sanctification like it hadn't yet occurred.
When the Lord's sanctifying blood was applied to my body, I was sanctified.
That happened at my baptism into Him and into His death.

That would be positional sanctification. The legality of our salvation is finished when we come to faith in Jesus, like you said. But there is another sanctification .

Here we see both spoken of. First positional, then practical.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Insightful. The apostle Paul often denigrated himself, and I believe it was for the very same reasons. The closer you get to God, the more awful you can appear at times to yourself because your weaknesses and failings become all that much more apparent and glaring. But it is indeed a phase in sanctification, because you cannot address anything until you first begin to see it as God sees it.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for sharing.
- H

I was thinking of that also, with regards to Paul.

Interesting, I think, that the self righteousness vs. poor in spirit parable, Paul seems to use himself for both sides of that.

First Philippians 3:1-10 as a Pharisee, then as a believer. (first half - self righteous)

In another place, the poor in spirit.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

That would be positional sanctification. The legality of our salvation is finished when we come to faith in Jesus, like you said. But there is another sanctification .

How can there be another sanctification separate from the one the Lord died to provide for us ?

Here we see both spoken of. First positional, then practical.

My "position" is practical.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

My bible does not say "being sanctified".
Heb. 10:14..."For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

[Dave...]

How can there be another sanctification separate from the one the Lord died to provide for us ?

My "position" is practical.

My bible does not say "being sanctified".
Heb. 10:14..."For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Positional is a legal sanctification. The progressive, or practical is our becoming what the 'legal' already reckons us to be "in Christ". God sees Jesus' perfect righteousness, and His perfect sinlessness in us. As if we did it. Legally, that's how we are saved. Now we need to begin to be transformed to what we are already legally considered "in Christ".

Your position is "in Christ" and justified.

That's why I prefer the NKJV. "are being sanctified" is the correct translation.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Positional is a legal sanctification. The progressive, or practical is our becoming what the 'legal' already reckons us to be "in Christ". God sees Jesus' perfect righteousness, and His perfect sinlessness in us. As if we did it. Legally, that's how we are saved. Now we need to begin to be transformed to what we are already legally considered "in Christ".
Your position is "in Christ" and justified.
That's why I prefer the NKJV. "are being sanctified" is the correct translation.
Dave

"Positional" is a man made doctrine that accommodates unsanctification.
Men are either in Christ-sanctified, or they are not in Christ-unsanctified.
"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

 

[for_his_glory]

When we first came to Jesus acknowledging we were sinners in need of God's grace we asked for forgiveness accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. At that moment God forgave all our sins wiping the slate clean. We didn't have to name every sin we ever committed. If you are moving forward pressing into Christ then there is no reason to backslide.

1Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[Tenchi]

I'm thinking sanctification.

When it's mentioned in the Bible in the future tense, it's usually speaking of practical, or progressive sanctification. To borrow a phrase from Macarthur, that would be us "being conformed to what God already reckons us to be in Christ".

Whereas 'sanctification' in the past tense is usually speaking of the legality of our salvation, or the 'positional sanctification'.

Well, I don't know that I'd describe my positional, spiritual sanctification in Christ as a "legality of our salvation." I think it's more than a divine, forensic declaration; it's a spiritual condition imparted to born-again believers in the Person of the Holy Spirit who is, in them, the very life of Christ (Colossians 3:4; John 14:6; John 1:4; Romans 8:9-14; Titus 3:5, etc.)

So, bear with me... speaking of practical sanctification, it's a life long journey. It's the Holy Spirit peeling back the layers, so to speak, and revealing our sin to us. When we first come to Jesus in faith and submit to Him and the Gospel, we usually repent of every sin that we can think of. While also conceding that we may have missed a few. But I think that our sin runs much deeper than we first realize. And when this 'old sin', for lack of a better phrase, is revealed to us during this process of sanctification, this can be very depressing, and even give the illusion that we are backsliding, when in fact, we are growing.

Spiritual growth is not just a matter of sin progressively exposed by the Holy Spirit and forsaken by me, right? As sin is removed from my life, God comes more and more clearly into view and my fellowship with Him is less and less hindered. As I'm made by the Spirit a "vessel sanctified and useful for the Master and prepared for every good work" (2 Timothy 2:21), I am used by God in ways that are deeply meaningful, fulfilling and gratifying. The process of the divine sanctification of my daily, practical condition leads me to joy, peace and contentment, into the "fruit of the Spirit," not just depressing revelations of sin in my life (Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 8:29).

Our job is to repent, ask for forgiveness, then wait for the next one.

??? Goodness! What a characterization of knowing and walking with God! Yikes.

Just something to note: After the Atonement at Calvary, there is nowhere in the NT a verse that instructs a redeemed, born-again believer to ask God for forgiveness. Instead, in response to having fallen into sin, Christians are told to do three things: Repent (James 4:6-10), confess (1 John 1:9) and submit (James 4:7; Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1). As they do, and sin becomes the exception rather than the rule of daily living, the believer enjoys more and more of the "abundant life" that is their spiritual inheritance in Jesus Christ.

Psalm 36:7-9
7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
8 They drink their fill of the abundance of Your house; And You give them to drink of the river of Your delights.
9 For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.

Psalm 16:11
11 You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.

John 10:10
10 ...I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

 

[Dave...]

Well, I don't know that I'd describe my positional, spiritual sanctification in Christ as a "legality of our salvation." I think it's more than a divine, forensic declaration; it's a spiritual condition imparted to born-again believers in the Person of the Holy Spirit who is, in them, the very life of Christ (Colossians 3:4; John 14:6; John 1:4; Romans 8:9-14; Titus 3:5, etc.)

Suup Tenchi

You seem to have the spiritual side of of it down. The word 'justification' is actually somewhat of a legal term. Gods Law demands justice. The Penalty for sin is death. That's also legal. Our being justified according to God's Law, or His Justice being satisfied, is what Jesus on our behalf on the cross. I like to think of God's Law as a reflection of His character. That way it's easy to see how these things can overlap in our minds. His mercy, while satisfying His Law, is also a part of His Character

Dave

 

[Tenchi]

You seem to have the spiritual side of of it down. The word 'justification' is actually somewhat of a legal term.

After fifty years of walking with God, I should have the "spiritual side" down - at least, somewhat.

I understand the forensic (i.e. legal) nature of God's justification of the in-Christ person.

Gods Law demands justice. The Penalty for sin is death. That's also legal.

Yes, right.

Our being justified according to God's Law, or His Justice being satisfied, is what Jesus on our behalf on the cross.

Uh huh.

I like to think of God's Law as a reflection of His character.

Mmhmm. If it's not, if God's justice is not a manifestation of His nature, the Euthyphro Dilemma becomes a very difficult problem to resolve.

His mercy, while satisfying His Law, is also a part of His Character

Right.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thoughts?

Spiritual growth is like rowing upstream, if you stop or even just slow down, you automatically go down. There's an inner struggle between your old self and new self, you're constantly being tempted to go back to your old life, to your familiar territories. If you wanna grow, you must resist that temptation, cast out that desire, as Paul instructed and live as a free man in Christ.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Gal. 4:28-31)