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When Does Union With Christ Happen?

Doulos Iesou

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Introduction:

If you were to go into a Church service at many locations around the world, you'd observe that the invitation for sinners to come into the kingdom and come unto union with Christ looks a bit like this:

"Now with no one looking around, if anyone is far off and needs salvation, or if you have been wandering around and want to come home to Jesus, again with no eyes looking around.. raise your hand." Hands raise around the room. "I see that hand, and that one.. The sinners prayer is then recited, and at the end of the prayer the Pastor will likely said, now if you raised your hand and prayed that prayer, the Bible says you are now born again and are eternally saved.​

Personally, I have observed this kind of "altar call" across many modern Churches in America. The question is, is it Biblical?

What I find to be missing in most of these (not to mention what doesn't need to be there) is Baptism. If you look throughout Acts, every single time someone comes to Christ there is usually an immediate baptism that happens once someone affirms Christ as Lord.

Just how integral is Baptism to our union with Christ, to being born again?

Baptism and Union With Christ

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4(ESV)

The picture here is that Baptism represents our participation in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. That when we are submerged into the water, that represents the burial with Jesus, and that rising from that water is where we enter into newness of life.

The question is, is this just a symbolic representation of something that has already happened. Has the Christian already been united with Christ in this way prior to Baptism, or does this happen at Baptism?

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27(ESV)

This passage seems to point to the latter option, that as many or ὅσοι, the Greek word has this use elsewhere:

and implored him that they might only touch the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well. Matthew 14:36(ESV)

Only those who touched the garments were made well here, or rather as many as did touch it, were made well. This seems to then be true about baptism, as in both Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 this relative pronoun ὅσοι seems to indicate that only those who are baptized have been united with Christ.

In Paul's mind how else is Baptism envisaged?

For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

The Exodus through the Red Sea is another picture of baptism, but rather instead of the Israelites leaving from the slavery of the Egyptians and Pharaoh. The Christians when they are united with Jesus are to leave slavery from sin and death, and walk in the newness of life.

Practical Example:

Many take this view to be "salvation by works" and this comes from I believe, an overly systematic theology rather than a narrative theology. We try to fit and and organize things into an ordo salutis, where salvation is logically ordered out but don't stop to ask whether making up such and order of salvation is helpful to understand Scriptures teaching.

The example I want to offer is marriage:

Marriage is a Covenant that we enter into out of love and commitment, the love and affection shared by the man and woman are surely real going into Marriage, but the union is not fully realized until that ceremony happens, and the two are made one.

Baptism, I believe is closely related to this, that though we believe before we are baptized and are justified by faith, the union with Christ is not fully realized until that ceremony, that sacrament of Baptism.

Conclusion:

Baptism, then should not be a secondary action, but closely related and cherished by the Christian as they know this was the moment when they had their new exodus. When they walked into the waters of baptism to leave the life of slavery to sin and death, and to live now to righteousness and newness of life in relationship with Jesus.

This isn't merely a "super spiritual" action either, we are to now therefore consider ourselves, and put our minds on the things are above.. where Christ is seated. Baptism, is however, the foundation of the new life lived but of course there much more to work out.

Protestants (as I myself am one) have historically diminished the role of Baptism, but does Scripture?

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus
 
I went to a church that told no salvation message and gave no altar calls.
However, one day I decided that Jesus really was God and in prayer I asked him into my heart.
At that moment I felt the over-whelming presence of the Spirit of God.
Someone had to explain it to me and told me I was saved.
And yes, I knew then that I was saved.
The church didn't offer a baptism until 6 months later at their annual baptism ceremony.
I was excited and I couldn't wait to take that next step.
Regardless of how the church did things, I knew I was saved without the baptism.
 
I went to a church that told no salvation message and gave no altar calls.
However, one day I decided that Jesus really was God and in prayer I asked him into my heart.
At that moment I felt the over-whelming presence of the Spirit of God.
Someone had to explain it to me and told me I was saved.
And yes, I knew then that I was saved.
The church didn't offer a baptism until 6 months later at their annual baptism ceremony.
I was excited and I couldn't wait to take that next step.
Regardless of how the church did things, I knew I was saved without the baptism.
Hi Allenwyne,

I appreciate your personal testimony, but your experiences are ultimately subjective, just as a Mormon would say, "I had a personal spiritual witness testify to me that the Book of Mormon is true, therefore I know it's true." I can neither validate or invalidate your claim and therefore is hard to do anything with. Do you have Scripture, which is an objective claim to truth, to support anything of what you have said?
 
I believe our union with Christ begins when you believe and confess and give all your faith to Jesus Christ and then wait. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Wait on the Lord, because he will come. John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Believe, confess and have faith that he will come to you. It's that simple.
 
If you were to go into a Church service at many locations around the world, you'd observe that the invitation for sinners to come into the kingdom and come unto union with Christ looks a bit like this:
"Now with no one looking around, if anyone is far off and needs salvation, or if you have been wandering around and want to come home to Jesus, again with no eyes looking around.. raise your hand." Hands raise around the room. "I see that hand, and that one.. The sinners prayer is then recited, and at the end of the prayer the Pastor will likely said, now if you raised your hand and prayed that prayer, the Bible says you are now born again and are eternally saved.
Personally, I have observed this kind of "altar call" across many modern Churches in America. The question is, is it Biblical?
well to be honest what we call the altar call. the invitation to salvation. is not bible butttttttttt it works. the invite for salvation is in the bible. the sinners prayer recited i do not agree with. ( IF A CHURCH CAN NOT TAKE TIME OUT TO PRAY AND MINISTER TO A PERSON OR PERSONS AT THE ALTAR needs not be in the ministry } the use of the altar i highly recommend . the spirit has to draw just simply repeating a prayer does not save you. unless it comes from the heart and the spirit is drawing. Baptism does NOT save us. baptism IS SYMBOLIC .should we be baptized ? yes follow Christ example.
 
I believe our union with Christ begins when you believe and confess and give all your faith to Jesus Christ and then wait. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Wait on the Lord, because he will come. John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Believe, confess and have faith that he will come to you. It's that simple.
amen i agree
 
I believe our union with Christ begins when you believe and confess and give all your faith to Jesus Christ and then wait. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Wait on the Lord, because he will come. John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Believe, confess and have faith that he will come to you. It's that simple.
Where do these texts address union with Christ? The texts I presented do address our union with Christ and it says that as many as are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. How do you reconcile your statements with what you just said?
 
Baptism does NOT save us. baptism IS SYMBOLIC .should we be baptized ? yes follow Christ example.
What do you do then with the Scripture posted in my OP, please forgive me for not fully responding to your post in my response. I just find that I many times right lengthy detailed original posts, that largely go ignored except for snip-its.
 
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Believe, confess and have faith that he will come to you. It's that simple.
Where do these texts address union with Christ? The texts I presented do address our union with Christ and it says that as many as are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. How do you reconcile your statements with what you just said?

Where do they address union with Christ? How about 'I will come to you', and I certainly do applaud you for your effort in the OP.
 
Hi Doulos, I respect your opinion about water baptism. If you found that it was needful for your union, as you put it with Jesus and that's what you did, I'm very happy for you.

We have had so many water baptism threads on this forum and they all end up the same, nobody that I know of has ever changed their view. :)
 
Baptismal regeneration isn't in John chapter 3, in any case. It's not in the Bible anywhere; because it would be a religion of salvation by ritual.

I won't multiply words about something that has been often stated, in any case.
 
Baptism does NOT save us. baptism IS SYMBOLIC .should we be baptized ? yes follow Christ example.
What do you do then with the Scripture posted in my OP, please forgive me for not fully responding to your post in my response. I just find that I many times right lengthy detailed original posts, that largely go ignored except for snip-its.

i don,t do long drawn out post. my typing skils stink. if we was in person we could talk for hours . i gave my honest opinion.
 
I went to a church that told no salvation message and gave no altar calls.
However, one day I decided that Jesus really was God and in prayer I asked him into my heart.
At that moment I felt the over-whelming presence of the Spirit of God.
Someone had to explain it to me and told me I was saved.
And yes, I knew then that I was saved.
The church didn't offer a baptism until 6 months later at their annual baptism ceremony.
I was excited and I couldn't wait to take that next step.
Regardless of how the church did things, I knew I was saved without the baptism.
Hi Allenwyne,

I appreciate your personal testimony, but your experiences are ultimately subjective, just as a Mormon would say, "I had a personal spiritual witness testify to me that the Book of Mormon is true, therefore I know it's true." I can neither validate or invalidate your claim and therefore is hard to do anything with. Do you have Scripture, which is an objective claim to truth, to support anything of what you have said?

It sounds as though you don't recognize the presence of the Spirit of God in your life.
Is that true?
 
if baptism saves us.then Christ had to be saved to become the savior.if that be that the case throw 2nd corithians 5:21 out the window ---For He made Him who " knew no sin" to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. i rest my case:thumbsup:amen
 
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Hi George, would you like to elaborate how you believe these texts support your position? Please note that I haven't said you receive the Spirit through water baptism. Also, do you think that "baptism" is to be considered a work of the law?
 
Hi Doulos, I respect your opinion about water baptism. If you found that it was needful for your union, as you put it with Jesus and that's what you did, I'm very happy for you.

We have had so many water baptism threads on this forum and they all end up the same, nobody that I know of has ever changed their view.
Well, I think you'll find I come at it from a different angle. I don't come out and say, YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED, and then discredit the authenticity of other Christians who believe such. Nor do I hold the position of baptismal regeneration, as if it is solely some spiritual quickening that happens only at Baptism. I just find that Baptism is integral to our being identified with Christ, our being united with him in his death and resurrection which is indeed key to the Christian life, and thus makes Baptism a primary issue in my mind.
 
Baptismal regeneration isn't in John chapter 3, in any case.
Did I say it was? Or did I say I believed in Baptismal Regeneration? I am not Catholic.

It's not in the Bible anywhere; because it would be a religion of salvation by ritual.

I won't multiply words about something that has been often stated, in any case.
I'm talking about union with Christ and it's relationship to Baptism, do you have anything to respond to on the issue, or are you here simply to discourage participation?
 
It sounds as though you don't recognize the presence of the Spirit of God in your life.
Is that true?
Of course I recognize the Spirit of God in my life, I affirm the trinity. Also, on a personal level I recognize the Holy Spirit, however I test the spirits as 1 John instructs and make sure that what the Spirit is leading me in is supported by the Word of God. Mormons for example, do not do this and thus fall into great error.
 
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