When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[Doulos Iesou]

if baptism saves us.then Christ had to be saved to become the savior.if that be that the case throw 2nd corithians 5:21 out the window ---For He made Him who " knew no sin" to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. i rest my case

? I'm a little confused at these comments.

1. I didn't outright claim "baptism saves us."
2. Of course Christ didn't have to be saved to save us.
3. Of course Christ knew no sin.

I'm talking about how baptism relates to our coming into union with Christ, and how that Biblically works itself out. Care to comment on that, rather than dealing with assumed consequences of whatever it is you think I believe.

 

[John 8:32]

Please note that I haven't said you receive the Spirit through water baptism.

We receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands...

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These folks were baptized by no less than John the Baptist...

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Now John the Baptist was no ordinary fellow, but baptism alone does not confer the Holy Spirit, it comes to us through the laying on of hands. The above account is not an isolated instance...

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

We receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands...

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These folks were baptized by no less than John the Baptist...

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Now John the Baptist was no ordinary fellow, but baptism alone does not confer the Holy Spirit, it comes to us through the laying on of hands. The above account is not an isolated instance...

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

I appreciate your thoughts John 8:32, however this is a whole other discussion and debate.

Right now we are discussing when union with Christ happens.

 

[John 8:32]

We receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands...

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These folks were baptized by no less than John the Baptist...

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Now John the Baptist was no ordinary fellow, but baptism alone does not confer the Holy Spirit, it comes to us through the laying on of hands. The above account is not an isolated instance...

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

I appreciate your thoughts John 8:32, however this is a whole other discussion and debate.

Right now we are discussing when union with Christ happens.

And that occurs when our mind is renewed by the addition of the Holy Spirit.

Over and out.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

And that occurs when our mind is renewed by the addition of the Holy Spirit.

Over and out.

Would you then say the passages refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit then?

 

[Webb]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are pased away; behold, all things are become new" II Cor. 5:17. Must one be "in Christ" to be saved? To ask the question is to answer it. The only way to be "in Christ" is by being baptized into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Eph.1:3. See Gal.3:26,27, Rom.6:3-5. Newness of life follows baptism into Christ, Rom.6:4. By baptism into Christ we are "planted" or as other translations read "UNITED" with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection, Rom.6:5.

God bless

 

[Doulos Iesou]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are pased away; behold, all things are become new" II Cor. 5:17. Must one be "in Christ" to be saved? To ask the question is to answer it. The only way to be "in Christ" is by being baptized into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Eph.1:3. See Gal.3:26,27, Rom.6:3-5. Newness of life follows baptism into Christ, Rom.6:4. By baptism into Christ we are "planted" or as other translations read "UNITED" with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection, Rom.6:5.

God bless

Is the "baptism into Christ" water baptism?

 

[farouk]

Is the "baptism into Christ" water baptism?

1 Corinthians 12.13: at the new birth, the believer comes into the good of what occurred at Pentecost when the Spirit came to dwell with the church.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

1 Corinthians 12.13: at the new birth, the believer comes into the good of what occurred at Pentecost when the Spirit came to dwell with the church.

How many Baptisms are there exactly then?

 

[Deborah13]

Did I say it was? Or did I say I believed in Baptismal Regeneration? I am not Catholic.

The belief that water baptism is necessary for regeneration "to be born again" is not just an RCC doctrine. In previous threads this was discussed with Church of Christ, I believe.

So maybe it would be a good idea to state what you do believe and take it from there with interpreting the Scriptures.

 

[Webb]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are pased away; behold, all things are become new" II Cor. 5:17. Must one be "in Christ" to be saved? To ask the question is to answer it. The only way to be "in Christ" is by being baptized into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Eph.1:3. See Gal.3:26,27, Rom.6:3-5. Newness of life follows baptism into Christ, Rom.6:4. By baptism into Christ we are "planted" or as other translations read "UNITED" with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection, Rom.6:5.

God bless

Is the "baptism into Christ" water baptism?

There is only one (1) baptism remaining today, Eph.4:4, and it is water baptism.
God bless

 

[Webb]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are pased away; behold, all things are become new" II Cor. 5:17. Must one be "in Christ" to be saved? To ask the question is to answer it. The only way to be "in Christ" is by being baptized into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Eph.1:3. See Gal.3:26,27, Rom.6:3-5. Newness of life follows baptism into Christ, Rom.6:4. By baptism into Christ we are "planted" or as other translations read "UNITED" with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection, Rom.6:5.

God bless

Is the "baptism into Christ" water baptism?

There is only one (1) baptism remaining today, Eph.4:4 and it is water baptism.
God bless

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Union with Christ happens when one receives the Holy Spirit.

I received the Spirit immediately after praying along with an evangelist for the forgiveness of God. So, my conversion is in line with that of Cornelius, who received the Spirit, and then was water baptized.

My favorite conversion passage in the Bible is this:

"13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ " (Luke 18:13 NASB)

Because this is how I came to the Lord. I thought everybody came to God through a plea for mercy, but maybe not true(?)

 

[Webb]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are pased away; behold, all things are become new" II Cor. 5:17. Must one be "in Christ" to be saved? To ask the question is to answer it. The only way to be "in Christ" is by being baptized into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Eph.1:3. See Gal.3:26,27, Rom.6:3-5. Newness of life follows baptism into Christ, Rom.6:4. By baptism into Christ we are "planted" or as other translations read "UNITED" with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection, Rom.6:5.

God bless

Is the "baptism into Christ" water baptism?

One (1) baptism remains today, Eph.4:4 and it is water baptism.
God bless

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The belief that water baptism is necessary for regeneration "to be born again" is not just an RCC doctrine. In previous threads this was discussed with Church of Christ, I believe.

So maybe it would be a good idea to state what you do believe and take it from there with interpreting the Scriptures.

I am aware of what the church of Christ teaches, I could name several other religious denominations as well as the Early Church Fathers and show they believed this as well.

However, I do not find the distinction helpful. Nor, at this point at least, do I find any distinction as to whatever the doctrine is called. Nor, am I completely convinced on the matter, however I do find it extremely exegetically inconsistent to disassociate our initial union with Christ with Baptism.

I also, don't take an extremely systematic approach to theology as some do, but prefer a narrative approach that is above all.. Biblical.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is only one (1) baptism remaining today, Eph.4:4 and it is water baptism.
God bless

I'm amused by you unintentionally stating your point about the singularity of who we believers are baptized into in duplicate posts.

How's Webb doing these days?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The real question is, "can someone receive the Spirit through belief in Christ and then resist water baptism?"

I don't see why a genuinely saved person would do that, but I suppose it's possible, and then we have to wonder about the implications of that.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jethro--Webb is fine and well and here's hoping you are too. To explain my posts of which you are amused (and myself and no doubt others) the post was not going through so I wrote it about 3 times. Apparently someone else was trying to post at the exact moment. Any way, I apologize for the duplication, the Bible needs say something once however for it to be true.
God bless,

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Union with Christ happens when one receives the Holy Spirit.

When does it say we are made alive with Christ, I would say, being baptized with him in death and rising from the water in faith to newness of life. What Scriptural support do you have for your conclusion?

I received the Spirit immediately after praying along with an evangelist for the forgiveness of God. So, my conversion is in line with that of Cornelius, who received the Spirit, and then was water baptized.

My position does not deny this.

My favorite conversion passage in the Bible is this:

"13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ " (Luke 18:13 NASB)

Because this is how I came to the Lord. I thought everybody came to God through a plea for mercy, but maybe not true(?)

Well, is it necessarily saying that this was the man's conversion? Both of the men in the Parable according to Jesus, went up to the temple with the purpose to pray v.10

Perhaps, we should be a little more hesitant with using this text to support a particular conversion story.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Romans 8:16
We can know without any other scripture that we are Gods' children.

1 John 5:13.
This verse spells it out plainly.

1 John 5:3-4
His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Sounds like it's not too hard and that we all stay saved.