When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[Doulos Iesou]

Romans 8:16
We can know without any other scripture that we are Gods' children.

1 John 5:13.
This verse spells it out plainly.

1 John 5:3-4
His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Sounds like it's not too hard and that we all stay saved.

Hi Allenwynne,

I think you posted this in the wrong thread, this thread is about baptism and union with Christ.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Romans 8:16
We can know without any other scripture that we are Gods' children.

1 John 5:13.
This verse spells it out plainly.

1 John 5:3-4
His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Sounds like it's not too hard and that we all stay saved.

Hi Allenwynne,

I think you posted this in the wrong thread, this thread is about baptism and union with Christ.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

In post #3 you asked if I could validate my claim in post #2.
I just did.

 

[berk60]

I was baptized as an infant in a Catholic church by the request of my parents and it was not of any request of myself accepting Jesus as Lord. It was much later in my life when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was in my late 20's.
If I would have died before my acceptance of Jesus as my Savior I wouldn't be saved from Hell even though I was baptized as an infant. This only gives one a false sense of eternal security in my opinion.

 

[Webb]

The baptism of the "great commission" as we call it is a believers baptism. Infants cannot believe. Even repentance preceeds baptism, Acts 2:38.

 

[berk60]

The baptism of the "great commission" as we call it is a believers baptism. Infants cannot believe. Even repentance preceeds baptism, Acts 2:38.

Amen to that! Even though my parents had me baptized as an infant I was baptized as an adult by the pastor from my Bible church after I repented and asked Jesus into my heart.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I was baptized as an infant in a Catholic church by the request of my parents and it was not of any request of myself accepting Jesus as Lord. It was much later in my life when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was in my late 20's.
If I would have died before my acceptance of Jesus as my Savior I wouldn't be saved from Hell even though I was baptized as an infant. This only gives one a false sense of eternal security in my opinion.

A few things..

1. I do not affirm infant baptism.
2. I believe in "believers baptism."
3. I do not think we should go around baptizing people to try and ensure their salvation.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The baptism of the "great commission" as we call it is a believers baptism. Infants cannot believe. Even repentance preceeds baptism, Acts 2:38.

No one here has affirmed infant baptism, I reject that and affirm believers baptism.

 

[berk60]

A few things.. 1. I do not affirm infant baptism. 2. I believe in "believers baptism." 3. I do not think we should go around baptizing people to try and ensure their salvation.

Praise God for your testimony. My mom used to get upset when a relative didn't have their infant baptized. She would say, "What if that baby should die before getting baptized." I share this so you see that there are people who don't believe the truth of the Bible as their final authority and it's tragic.

 

[Webb]

The baptism of the "great commission" as we call it is a believers baptism. Infants cannot believe. Even repentance preceeds baptism, Acts 2:38.

No one here has affirmed infant baptism, I reject tMhat and affirm believers baptism.[/QUOM

My response was to berk60 post 27, he mentioned the baptism (?) of the young.

 

[Webb]

A few things.. 1. I do not affirm infant baptism. 2. I believe in "believers baptism." 3. I do not think we should go around baptizing people to try and ensure their salvation.

Praise God for your testimony. My mom used to get upset when a relative didn't have their infant baptized. She would say, "What if that baby should die before getting baptized." I share this so you see that there are people who don't believe the truth of the Bible as their final authority and it's tragic.

While only God can "ensure" ones salvation I do urge accountable folk to be baptized as the scripture teaches, for the reason the scripture teaches and in the way the scripture teaches.

 

[George Muller]

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Hi George, would you like to elaborate how you believe these texts support your position? Please note that I haven't said you receive the Spirit through water baptism. Also, do you think that "baptism" is to be considered a work of the law?

I did not intend to relate any point other than the clear point that union with Christ is atttained only when one receives the Spirit, and should in fact know and have confidence that the witness of Gods Spirit is the only biblical standard that one should seek as to their standing and union with God.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I did not intend to relate any point other than the clear point that union with Christ is atttained only when one receives the Spirit, and should in fact know and have confidence that the witness of Gods Spirit is the only biblical standard that one should seek as to their standing and union with God.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Where do you find any texts that relate the receiving of the Spirit to being integral to our union with Christ? Or is this inferred from your systematic understanding of Biblical theology?

 

[George Muller]

I did not intend to relate any point other than the clear point that union with Christ is atttained only when one receives the Spirit, and should in fact know and have confidence that the witness of Gods Spirit is the only biblical standard that one should seek as to their standing and union with God.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Where do you find any texts that relate the receiving of the Spirit to being integral to our union with Christ? Or is this inferred from your systematic understanding of Biblical theology?

Im not sure what you mean by my "systematic" biblical theology?

I have posted a few clear scriptures that most anyone who has a desire to read them? Can understand them and how they relate to true union with Christ.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Deborah13]

Can understand them and how they relate to true union with Christ.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Yep that pretty much answers that question.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Union with Christ happens when one receives the Holy Spirit.

What Scriptural support do you have for your conclusion?

Muller nailed it:

"...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

What determines if you are in union with Christ or not is whether you possess the Holy Spirit, or not.

"13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ " (Luke 18:13 NASB)

Because this is how I came to the Lord. I thought everybody came to God through a plea for mercy, but maybe not true(?)

Well, is it necessarily saying that this was the man's conversion?

Yes, it does say that. It says the man who asked for mercy is the one who "went to his house justified" (Luke 18:14 NASB).

Both of the men in the Parable according to Jesus, went up to the temple with the purpose to pray v.10

Perhaps, we should be a little more hesitant with using this text to support a particular conversion story.

No, I'm okay with it, because it plainly says the humble man prayed what we like to call the 'sinner's prayer' and "went to his house justified", while the proud man prayed about himself and was not the one justified.

 

[Webb]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

 

[farouk]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Supposed baptismal regeneration again; but John 3, which teaches the new birth, doesn't mention baptism.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Yet, no one will deal with the texts given in the OP that deal specifically with where the Bible says we come into union with Christ. How do you reconcile your statements with Romans 6:3-4 for example?

 

[Butch5]

Introduction:

If you were to go into a Church service at many locations around the world, you'd observe that the invitation for sinners to come into the kingdom and come unto union with Christ looks a bit like this:

"Now with no one looking around, if anyone is far off and needs salvation, or if you have been wandering around and want to come home to Jesus, again with no eyes looking around.. raise your hand." Hands raise around the room. "I see that hand, and that one.. The sinners prayer is then recited, and at the end of the prayer the Pastor will likely said, now if you raised your hand and prayed that prayer, the Bible says you are now born again and are eternally saved.
​

Personally, I have observed this kind of "altar call" across many modern Churches in America. The question is, is it Biblical?

What I find to be missing in most of these (not to mention what doesn't need to be there) is Baptism. If you look throughout Acts, every single time someone comes to Christ there is usually an immediate baptism that happens once someone affirms Christ as Lord.

Just how integral is Baptism to our union with Christ, to being born again?

Baptism and Union With Christ

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4(ESV)

The picture here is that Baptism represents our participation in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. That when we are submerged into the water, that represents the burial with Jesus, and that rising from that water is where we enter into newness of life.

The question is, is this just a symbolic representation of something that has already happened. Has the Christian already been united with Christ in this way prior to Baptism, or does this happen at Baptism?

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27(ESV)

This passage seems to point to the latter option, that as many or ὅσοι, the Greek word has this use elsewhere:

and implored him that they might only touch the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well. Matthew 14:36(ESV)

Only those who touched the garments were made well here, or rather as many as did touch it, were made well. This seems to then be true about baptism, as in both Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 this relative pronoun ὅσοι seems to indicate that only those who are baptized have been united with Christ.

In Paul's mind how else is Baptism envisaged?

For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

The Exodus through the Red Sea is another picture of baptism, but rather instead of the Israelites leaving from the slavery of the Egyptians and Pharaoh. The Christians when they are united with Jesus are to leave slavery from sin and death, and walk in the newness of life.

Practical Example:

Many take this view to be "salvation by works" and this comes from I believe, an overly systematic theology rather than a narrative theology. We try to fit and and organize things into an ordo salutis, where salvation is logically ordered out but don't stop to ask whether making up such and order of salvation is helpful to understand Scriptures teaching.

The example I want to offer is marriage:

Marriage is a Covenant that we enter into out of love and commitment, the love and affection shared by the man and woman are surely real going into Marriage, but the union is not fully realized until that ceremony happens, and the two are made one.

Baptism, I believe is closely related to this, that though we believe before we are baptized and are justified by faith, the union with Christ is not fully realized until that ceremony, that sacrament of Baptism.

Conclusion:

Baptism, then should not be a secondary action, but closely related and cherished by the Christian as they know this was the moment when they had their new exodus. When they walked into the waters of baptism to leave the life of slavery to sin and death, and to live now to righteousness and newness of life in relationship with Jesus.

This isn't merely a "super spiritual" action either, we are to now therefore consider ourselves, and put our minds on the things are above.. where Christ is seated. Baptism, is however, the foundation of the new life lived but of course there much more to work out.

Protestants (as I myself am one) have historically diminished the role of Baptism, but does Scripture?

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

Hi Doulos,

Excellent post. It is at baptism that we are brought into union with Christ. Many churches today have focused on belief to the exclusion of the rest of God's commands. I would add from among others Colossians 2 which is a clear passage linking baptism with the new heart and remission of sins.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col 2:10-13 KJV)

This passage is pretty clear. You also quoted Romans 6, in that passage Paul connects baptism with participation in the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Supposed baptismal regeneration again; but John 3, which teaches the new birth, doesn't mention baptism.

Sure it does, water and the Spirit.