When Even God gives up on us (Romans 1:26-2:1)

[Randy]

So God hardens us according to our own wickedness, I agree. Many here do not agree with that. But in Romans 1 it says God gave them up to a reprobate mind.

But God hardened Pharaohs heart just as you read God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go. Pharaohs reaction was as God knew.

And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

 

[WIP]

but the scope of the passage is not the topic of polytheism. It's condemnation of the gentile via the natural law.

No, it's not. You brought it up as a defense for a previous statement. I'm only trying to show you that it was a pointless defense.

 

[WIP]

So God hardens us according to our own wickedness, I agree. Many here do not agree with that. But in Romans 1 it says God gave them up to a reprobate mind.

Giving them up to their own wickedness does not necessarily mean He hardened their hearts. In fact, I propose their hearts were already hardened as evidenced by their actions and God let them have what they desired.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Giving them up to their own wickedness does not necessarily mean He hardened their hearts. In fact, I propose their hearts were already hardened as evidenced by their actions and God let them have what they desired.

the please define what it means for God to harden hearts, versus giving them over to a reprobate mind, because I believe they are synonymous.

 

[godsquadgeek]

No, it's not. You brought it up as a defense for a previous statement. I'm only trying to show you that it was a pointless defense.

well, okay. But I still believe the summary of chapter one is that the gentile condemned via the natural law. But I will double check my Bible outlines later. And post. But each of the chapters, 1-3 condemn different groups and by different means.

 

[WIP]

the please define what it means for God to harden hearts, versus giving them over to a reprobate mind, because I believe they are synonymous.

I guess we're getting into differences of opinion at this point. The way I understand God hardening the heart vs giving them over to reprobate mind would be that for the former, God would be the cause of their rejection. For the latter, they were the cause of their rejection of God and God allowed them to have what they desired.

I can provide a human example. When our daughters were young I often found myself instructing them to dress warmer for the bus ride to school in the morning during the winter. My reasoning was that they would be prepared if the bus would break down or something. But, as with pretty much all children these days, they just didn't want to wear boots and hats and mittens to school. That would be uncool. Eventually, as they got older I began to back off because I figured they heard it enough and were getting old enough to take some responsibility. One time when they were riding with me and we had a snow storm so the country road leading to our home was covered with snow drifts we got stuck and had to walk home (about 1/2 mile). All they had on their feet were tennis shoes. A half mile doesn't seem too far but when you're walking in knee deep snow your feet will get plenty cold. Needless to say, they learned a lesson.

I didn't cause them to disregard my instructions by somehow hardening their hearts. The chose that for themselves. I did give them over to their own desires and as I hoped they got a strong lesson out of it.

I hope that helps show the difference.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Some people are predestined for damnation like Pharaoh and those men and women in Romans 1:26 as they chose to not acknowledge God of all creation and they are found without excuse when God judges them as they were never enlightened nor had the Holy Spirit.

Amen. Sadly enough for God would that all be saved.
However, it cannot be anything less being the Father creator of all is eternally knowledgeable of all things unto eternity. He knows those who will receive his covenant grace. And he knows who shall not. Did know, before that one was conceived in their mothers womb.

And how many in this life have we seen demonstrate that fact? So called, radical atheists. Those so assured there can be no such thing as God, or there is no proof that God exists. So sure that they are organized to fight against any proclamation to the contrary.
And how arrogant that is. To breathe in this life and swear up and down that no thing mortals call "God" , can be the source for that.
It's all just what? Chance? And then those very sort are all about science and its theories.When they fail to realize science is populated with Christians. And those atheist scientists are still looking for what they conceive of as the first cause, and what others call, God. It is then a matter of terminology and yet, the extraordinary lengths some terminologists, my word creation, impressed? :tongue , will suffer in Hell for all eternity never conceding that the answer they were always sure of that was not God, indeed was.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I guess we're getting into differences of opinion at this point. The way I understand God hardening the heart vs giving them over to reprobate mind would be that for the former, God would be the cause of their rejection. For the latter, they were the cause of their rejection of God and God allowed them to have what they desired.

I can provide a human example. When our daughters were young I often found myself instructing them to dress warmer for the bus ride to school in the morning during the winter. My reasoning was that they would be prepared if the bus would break down or something. But, as with pretty much all children these days, they just didn't want to wear boots and hats and mittens to school. That would be uncool. Eventually, as they got older I began to back off because I figured they heard it enough and were getting old enough to take some responsibility. One time when they were riding with me and we had a snow storm so the country road leading to our home was covered with snow drifts we got stuck and had to walk home (about 1/2 mile). All they had on their feet were tennis shoes. A half mile doesn't seem too far but when you're walking in knee deep snow your feet will get plenty cold. Needless to say, they learned a lesson.

I didn't cause them to disregard my instructions by somehow hardening their hearts. The chose that for themselves. I did give them over to their own desires and as I hoped they got a strong lesson out of it.

I hope that helps show the difference.

so if God is responsible for hardening ones heart, that is on par with God electing to Hell. Which is unscriptural.

 

[WIP]

so if God is responsible for hardening ones heart, that is on par with God electing to Hell. Which is unscriptural.

I see your point. Good question and I honestly don't have an answer right now.

 

[MCoop]

so if God is responsible for hardening ones heart, that is on par with God electing to Hell. Which is unscriptural.

What does it mean to you for God to be Sovereign over all creation? And just say you are correct that God saw in time who would believe the gospel and on that basis elects or predestined that sinner to eternal life. So is God unjust for creating sinners who He knew would never believe to go to hell? And if not why or for what purpose did God create a people for hell under those circumstances?

 

[MCoop]

So God hardens us according to our own wickedness, I agree. Many here do not agree with that. But in Romans 1 it says God gave them up to a reprobate mind.

Of course our wickedness is a means by which God hardens a sinner. Man is born guilty and wicked. God uses means to bring about His purpose and decree.. as in the case with Christ and His death. Acts 2:23. Men through their own volition murdered Christ Jesus. And yet it was ordained of God for it to be so

 

[godsquadgeek]

What does it mean to you for God to be Sovereign over all creation? And just say you are correct that God saw in time who would believe the gospel and on that basis elects or predestined that sinner to eternal life. So is God unjust for creating sinners who He knew would never believe to go to hell? And if not why or for what purpose did God create a people for hell under those circumstances?

He is not unjust because they choose of their free will to forfeit heaven.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Of course our wickedness is a means by which God hardens a sinner. Man is born guilty and wicked. God uses means to bring about His purpose and decree.. as in the case with Christ and His death. Acts 2:23. Men through their own volition murdered Christ Jesus. And yet it was ordained of God for it to be so

But who's fault was it that Christ was crucified? If they did it through their own volition, God merely allowed passively, He was not actively involved lest the cross be of no affect?

 

[MCoop]

He is not unjust because they choose of their free will to forfeit heaven.

How can a sinner forfeit heaven when he never possessed it to begin with? And that definitely didn’t answer my question. Who’s deserving of eternal life anyways? So God loved Jacob over Essau because He saw down the corridors of time Jacobs free will choice? How does your answer justify why He created sinners for hell?

 

[MCoop]

But who's fault was it that Christ was crucified? If they did it through their own volition, God merely allowed passively, He was not actively involved lest the cross be of no affect?

Men are held accountable for their sin and is why God is just in condemning them. You still didn’t disprove God ordained it. How do you interpret that scripture?

 

[godsquadgeek]

How can a sinner forfeit heaven when he never possessed it to begin with?

thats your view, not mine. I believe you think man has no role in his own salvation yet God won't repent for you, He allows us all to come into the faith, and grants repentance, yes. But He will not repent for you. I think this is where you were going in your comment?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Men are held accountable for their sin and is why God is just in condemning them. You still didn’t disprove God ordained it. How do you interpret that scripture?

Just because God ordains something doesn't mean that He always has an active role in performing it. He very well may raise up other vessels to perform the action. And those vessels are required to be obedient, God won't be obedient for them.

 

[Randy]

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Satan leads the whole world astray.

 

[MCoop]

thats your view, not mine. I believe you think man has no role in his own salvation yet God won't repent for you, He allows us all to come into the faith, and grants repentance, yes. But He will not repent for you. I think this is where you were going in your comment?

Your opinion is wrapped around the autonomy of the will, and is why you assume something as silly as God repenting and believing for the saved sinner. Regeneration brings life to a dead sinner which in turn becomes a new creation in Christ. Therefore his will or volition is now in subjection to Christ and His righteousness, through faith and a repentant heart. As in the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. The unregenerate mans nature only wills what he’s controlled by. And is held in bondage by sin and Satan. Apart from Gods mercy in Christ, man is under Gods wrath and judgement and doomed for hell. So what did God see in Jacob to love him over His hatred for Essau?

 

[MCoop]

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Satan leads the whole world astray.

Are you trying to insinuate this justifies libertarian free will?