When Even God gives up on us (Romans 1:26-2:1)

[MCoop]

Just because God ordains something doesn't mean that He always has an active role in performing it. He very well may raise up other vessels to perform the action. And those vessels are required to be obedient, God won't be obedient for them.

So you don’t believe God is Sovereign?

 

[WIP]

This thread has been straying too far from the rules. I too am guilty as charged. We need to remember to follow the rules of this forum. If you are not sure what they are please review the forum stickies.

 

[for_his_glory]

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

If it wasn't for Noah finding Gods grace none of us would be here now. 2 Peter Chapter 3 teaches us of Gods patience and longsuffering and that we must stand steadfast in His grace. We know we were all created in Gods image, but many allowed that image to be darkened in their life as they were led away with the error of the wicked (Satan).

God already foreknows those who are His by those who have answered His call as they are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified, Romans 8:29, 30.

It's people like Pharaoh that God gave up on as his heart was full of wickedness as God used Pharaoh and so many more like him to show His great power and authority that brings glory and honor to Him as others will see that power and authority and turn back to Him.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Your opinion is wrapped around the autonomy of the will, and is why you assume something as silly as God repenting and believing for the saved sinner. Regeneration brings life to a dead sinner which in turn becomes a new creation in Christ. Therefore his will or volition is now in subjection to Christ and His righteousness, through faith and a repentant heart. As in the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. The unregenerate mans nature only wills what he’s controlled by. And is held in bondage by sin and Satan. Apart from Gods mercy in Christ, man is under Gods wrath and judgement and doomed for hell. So what did God see in Jacob to love him over His hatred for Essau?

autonomy means self governed. So you don't believe our will is really free? What are we then, robots? Robots programmed to do the will of God regardless. Well, then we are poorly programmed indeed, because we still have a lot of sin in the world!

here is a verse proving free will autonomy:
Galatians 5:13New King James Version (NKJV)
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Are you trying to insinuate this justifies libertarian free will?

from my experience people who believe in free will and repentance are not libertarian at all. But those who believe in once saved always saved tend to be a little more liberal. If God elected certain individuals to be saved, His will cannot be overturned or upset by any man (not even the elected); hence, these people must be saved and can do nothing to change the situation. Which means they can live as carnal of a life as they want and still put on the christian tee shirt, and bumpersticker and be good to go. But that does not jive with this verse Luke 8:13

 

[Randy]

Are you trying to insinuate this justifies libertarian free will?

Yes - Jesus longed to help or save them and they refused Him.
I am freewill. I think there are many who currently suffer who regret the choices THEY made while in the life if the body. God does not tempt people to do evil.

 

[Randy]

Your opinion is wrapped around the autonomy of the will, and is why you assume something as silly as God repenting and believing for the saved sinner. Regeneration brings life to a dead sinner which in turn becomes a new creation in Christ. Therefore his will or volition is now in subjection to Christ and His righteousness, through faith and a repentant heart. As in the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. The unregenerate mans nature only wills what he’s controlled by. And is held in bondage by sin and Satan. Apart from Gods mercy in Christ, man is under Gods wrath and judgement and doomed for hell. So what did God see in Jacob to love him over His hatred for Essau?

In regard to Jacob and even Abraham and Paul and Jeremiah there are people chosen by grace before they did good or evil for Gods set purposes/plains that does not apply to all people. Paul wrote he was set aside at birth. While I am of the faith I can only state as far back as my memory goes I have been a believer and credit my christian mother who lead me to Jesus.

God has stated He will do all that He is pleased to do and He will have mercy on whom He has mercy on. I think when God sees someone with faith to believe He meets them halfway. No one comes to the Son unless the Father enables them. And those who listen and learn fro the Father go to the Son. "They shall all be taught by God"

To what you write use Jesus's words.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Faith is a key that opens the door. Two on crosses next to Jesus asked something of Jesus when He was on the cross but only one received a answer. The one who believed in Him. And that one went from death to eternal life in a instant by the one who has authority to forgive sin and give life. "Today you shall be with me in paradise"

 

[Randy]

from my experience people who believe in free will and repentance are not libertarian at all. But those who believe in once saved always saved tend to be a little more liberal. If God elected certain individuals to be saved, His will cannot be overturned or upset by any man (not even the elected); hence, these people must be saved and can do nothing to change the situation. Which means they can live as carnal of a life as they want and still put on the christian tee shirt, and bumpersticker and be good to go. But that does not jive with this verse Luke 8:13

I would state as Jesus stated, "remain in me and i will remain in you" That said I don't believe you wake up and lose your salvation. You would have to deny the Lord which one born of God would be unlikely to do. That would be insane.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I would state as Jesus stated, "remain in me and i will remain in you" That said I don't believe you wake up and lose your salvation. You would have to deny the Lord which one born of God would be unlikely to do. That would be insane.

Oh I don't believe you can lose salvation, I believe you can forfeit it when you live in constant sin, to the point where the sin deceives you into not believing in Christ anymore. At that point Christ gives you over to a reprobate mind (romans 1). The sin of greed let Judas be deceived and reprobated him in apostasy. I believe in eternal security for me, because I desire salvation, if some day I decided not to want it anymore, Jesus would not force it on me.

 

[MCoop]

autonomy means self governed. So you don't believe our will is really free? What are we then, robots? Robots programmed to do the will of God regardless. Well, then we are poorly programmed indeed, because we still have a lot of sin in the world!

here is a verse proving free will autonomy:
Galatians 5:13New King James Version (NKJV)
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

No, mans will is not free. The unregenerate man does not desire or can he understand the things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14. Natural man is in bondage to his sinful nature. So how is he free? As in the case of Pharaoh and the reprobate, they were created for the purpose of God showing His power, wrath, and justice in fitting them for destruction. And for the elect in Christ, His love, kindness and mercy on the vessels of mercy prepared unto glory

 

[MCoop]

from my experience people who believe in free will and repentance are not libertarian at all. But those who believe in once saved always saved tend to be a little more liberal. If God elected certain individuals to be saved, His will cannot be overturned or upset by any man (not even the elected); hence, these people must be saved and can do nothing to change the situation. Which means they can live as carnal of a life as they want and still put on the christian tee shirt, and bumpersticker and be good to go. But that does not jive with this verse Luke 8:13

God did elect some for salvation. That’s why salvation is by grace alone

 

[godsquadgeek]

No, mans will is not free. The unregenerate man does not desire or can he understand the things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14. Natural man is in bondage to his sinful nature. So how is he free? As in the case of Pharaoh and the reprobate, they were created for the purpose of God showing His power, wrath, and justice in fitting them for destruction. And for the elect in Christ, His love, kindness and mercy on the vessels of mercy prepared unto glory

If he is not free why does God command repentance over 100 Times? You said the natural man is in bond age in one verse, but I have over a hundred that say the natural man must improve performance to be saved.

 

[MCoop]

In regard to Jacob and even Abraham and Paul and Jeremiah there are people chosen by grace before they did good or evil for Gods set purposes/plains that does not apply to all people. Paul wrote he was set aside at birth. While I am of the faith I can only state as far back as my memory goes I have been a believer and credit my christian mother who lead me to Jesus.

God has stated He will do all that He is pleased to do and He will have mercy on whom He has mercy on. I think when God sees someone with faith to believe He meets them halfway. No one comes to the Son unless the Father enables them. And those who listen and learn fro the Father go to the Son. "They shall all be taught by God"

To what you write use Jesus's words.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Faith is a key that opens the door. Two on crosses next to Jesus asked something of Jesus when He was on the cross but only one received a answer. The one who believed in Him. And that one went from death to eternal life in a instant by the one who has authority to forgive sin and give life. "Today you shall be with me in paradise"

I’m not sure this answers my question. Romans 9 speaks specifically on Jacob and Essau. So are you saying God saw something in Jacob to love him over Essau?

 

[godsquadgeek]

God did elect some for salvation. That’s why salvation is by grace alone

No. Salvation is not by grace alone. Or all would be saved outright. It's salvation by grace alone, through faith (which involves repentance).

 

[MCoop]

autonomy means self governed. So you don't believe our will is really free? What are we then, robots? Robots programmed to do the will of God regardless. Well, then we are poorly programmed indeed, because we still have a lot of sin in the world!

here is a verse proving free will autonomy:
Galatians 5:13New King James Version (NKJV)
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

So you believe your will is outside Gods control and supremacy? I asked you before, what does it mean for God to be Sovereign?

 

[MCoop]

No. Salvation is not by grace alone. Or all would be saved. It's salvation by faith alone (which involves repentance) through grace alone.

That don’t make sense

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Oh I don't believe you can lose salvation, I believe you can forfeit it when you live in constant sin, to the point where the sin deceives you into not believing in Christ anymore. At that point Christ gives you over to a reprobate mind (romans 1). The sin of greed let Judas be deceived and reprobated him in apostasy. I believe in eternal security for me, because I desire salvation, if some day I decided not to want it anymore, Jesus would not force it on me.

Make no mistake, God is Sovereign.
Psalm 115:3
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Those who give up on their faith, turn apostate, if they were Christian in the first place, may have given up on God. But Jesus never gives up on them. Those are still in the palm of his hand as he promised. Because eternal salvation is exactly what the Christ who died to deliver the seal on that promise said it is. Eternal. John 10:28

That isn't speaking of temporary life. Throw away salvation at the whim of the saved. It is speaking as the son of God, indwelt by the spirit of the most holy of fathers, giving a guarantee sanctified by blood on the cross, that it is what Jesus died to insure it would be for all time.
While those who claim to be Christian and really are not in the covenant, those are not saved in the first place. Their kind was warned of when they appeared amid the disciples and then walked away. 1 John 2:19
The saved in Christ are reborn, they're not un-done in all that salvation merits if they stray or turn from the path of righteousness. Because God called them to his son. And they arrived. No one can take us from Jesus' hand, we can't even leap from it of our own accord when we are not there by our own work in the first place. We're there by God's grace.
He wrote our name in the book of life before the world came to be. He knew us before the womb. And he may have inspired the invention of White-Out, but he doesn't use it in the book of life. We are eternally saved by the power of the holy spirit. If we could change that, our power would be greater than his. And that just is not true.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

If he is not free why does God command repentance over 100 Times? You said the natural man is in bond age in one verse, but I have over a hundred that say the natural man must improve performance to be saved.

I love this site, Got Questions? When I'm in study , which I consider to be the case as we share scriptures here together, I take great pleasure in learning from that site. I hope it helps others here too in sharing it about this question.

" The truth is that God does not violate our wills by choosing us and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts so that our wills choose Him. “We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19), and “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16). "
How does God's sovereignty work together with free will? https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will-sovereign.html

 

[godsquadgeek]

I love this site, Got Questions? When I'm in study , which I consider to be the case as we share scriptures here together, I take great pleasure in learning from that site. I hope it helps others here too in sharing it about this question.

" The truth is that God does not violate our wills by choosing us and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts so that our wills choose Him. “We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19), and “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16). "
How does God's sovereignty work together with free will? https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will-sovereign.html

I mostly agree with Gotquestions, but I have disagreed with him on a few things. But mostly pretty solid.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Make no mistake, God is Sovereign.
Psalm 115:3
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Those who give up on their faith, turn apostate, if they were Christian in the first place, may have given up on God. But Jesus never gives up on them. Those are still in the palm of his hand as he promised. Because eternal salvation is exactly what the Christ who died to deliver the seal on that promise said it is. Eternal. John 10:28

That isn't speaking of temporary life. Throw away salvation at the whim of the saved. It is speaking as the son of God, indwelt by the spirit of the most holy of fathers, giving a guarantee sanctified by blood on the cross, that it is what Jesus died to insure it would be for all time.
While those who claim to be Christian and really are not in the covenant, those are not saved in the first place. Their kind was warned of when they appeared amid the disciples and then walked away. 1 John 2:19
The saved in Christ are reborn, they're not un-done in all that salvation merits if they stray or turn from the path of righteousness. Because God called them to his son. And they arrived. No one can take us from Jesus' hand, we can't even leap from it of our own accord when we are not there by our own work in the first place. We're there by God's grace.
He wrote our name in the book of life before the world came to be. He knew us before the womb. And he may have inspired the invention of White-Out, but he doesn't use it in the book of life. We are eternally saved by the power of the holy spirit. If we could change that, our power would be greater than his. And that just is not true.

I would believe you, accept the actual phrase, give up, is used in reference to God giving them up to a reprobate mind, in romans one.