When Even God gives up on us (Romans 1:26-2:1)

[godsquadgeek]

No I can't. Pages and pages of dialog, and the Bible prove that. Eternal, and "no one" can take them from my hand. Are key words in the Bible and the latter being from Christ himself, that should be something counter arguments such as those presented in this discussion should become familiar with. It helps to realize their misunderstanding does not alter the meaning of, eternal life, and,no one.
God said it. Man doesn't change it because they feel like they can. Those who end their relationship with Christ were never one with Christ. God told us that too.
And who in their right(eous) mind would ever ever ever , knowing the scriptures, and the difference between eternal salvation and eternal damnation, would say, "oh, I think I'll leap from Christ's hand and do a beautiful swan dive for all eternity right into the pit of Hell! "

I disagree. God won't force me to be saved if I change my mind. Nor you. He is a gentleman. Hebrews 6:1-6 mentions clearly that salvation can be forfeited. I believe in eternal security for me because I want to be saved, if for some reason I didn't want to anymore and my mind decieved me into not believing in Christ anymore, then I would not be saved.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I have, also, found no reason to believe he lost his salvation but many, just, scream at the thought of it.

I was thinking about Judas. Now pretend to be God ( in a non idolatrous fashion) for a minute. Say you created a perfect group of people strong enough to get the job done but weak enough to be seen as everyday people. Now when Judas was chosen to be a disciple he was a friend. The prophecy in the psalms about betrayal by a friend, means He trusted him. "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
(Psalms 41:9)

Now again, thinking from the realm of God, why or how rather, could you be betrayed by someone who was never a believer to begin with? Betrayed means that something happened from good to bad. Judas in my opinion was saved, and thus being apostate is the only way to truly betray Christ. IF one never believed, to begin with. Or if Judas was never saved, then the prophesy about trust would be wrong, for Jesus would not have trusted him. After all would you trust someone who you knew ahead of time would betray you with a kiss?

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I disagree. God won't force me to be saved if I change my mind. Nor you. He is a gentleman. Hebrews 6:1-6 mentions clearly that salvation can be forfeited. I believe in eternal security for me because I want to be saved, if for some reason I didn't want to anymore and my mind decieved me into not believing in Christ anymore, then I would not be saved.

Scripture?

No, your mind isn't stronger than God's will for you. God's foreknowledge of who would come into his grace and who would reject it.

Jesus would have to throw you away and reciprocate your turning away from him. He does not. He promises that.And he died to keep his promise. Praise the LORD!

God knows who are his and who are not. That's why not everyone on earth for all time have their name written in a one and only lambs book of life before the world was created. Those who God knew would accept the not so free when you think about Christ's suffering on the cross , gift of eternal salvation and immortal life. And who would reject it. And all before he created the heavens and the earth.

Sure, there are those who inhabiting this mortal coil using the limited mortal consciousness can say they're Christian. They can go through all the motions too. Repent, baptism, all that. And while they think they're in Christ, God actually knows their heart and if they are. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Psalm 116. And he knows who are not his own. God is eternal and he is eternally knowing, sovereign. No thing is greater than his power as source from whence all is. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:44

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.
The beginning of that chapter 10 , all of it glorious reading that may help your understanding, speaks of those who think they're in Christ but really , as God knows, are not. They are thieves and robbers. They can't leave Christ's hand because God knows they were never really there in the first place. The delusion therefore is in that false christian because while they may think they're in Christ and then dedicate themselves to walking away for the rest of their life, God knows if they are his. And that eternal spirits thoughts is all that matters.
That person could be a true believer. They were just led away by the worlds trappings. However, just because they turned their back on God, Christ, that never means God, Christ, turned his back on that true believer. Even when they imagined they were no longer that.
The parable of the shepherd seeking after but one in his flock that goes astray? Familiar? Does that parable say something like, if the sheep were to look at the shepherd and doubt the security the shepherd afforded him, the shepherd would let the lamb down to suffer the fate deserving. Because the lamb's thought of itself is greater than the power that sent its voice to inform the sheep of its place in his plan?
No.
My thoughts aren't greater than God's knowledge of me before he created this world I live in. And hey, I could be deluded thinking I'm called and saved. I'll find out in the end. The point being, God knows. God said his covenant with his sheep that are called to his son is everlasting. That's all that matters. That's all that rules in the truth of how things really are beyond the scope and confines of this limited consciousness in this transitory existence called "my" life in "this world".
God knows. And God said he gives eternal salvation and eternal life to those who believe and are in his grace. Thinking we actually can change that is thinking this tiny mortal self has a will greater than the eternal infinite power that made it from the dust of the ground in the beginning.
And no doubt, if arriving in Heaven after entertaining such a notion, one would have a good chuckle with God for having been so silly. And so self-assured as that. God knows his son came to tell self it ain't all that. And what it really is will spend eternity in one place or the other finding that out.

God knows it is not my place to change your mind when his word does not assist your understanding.
God be with you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I was thinking about Judas. Now pretend to be God ( in a non idolatrous fashion) for a minute. Say you created a perfect group of people strong enough to get the job done but weak enough to be seen as everyday people. Now when Judas was chosen to be a disciple he was a friend. The prophecy in the psalms about betrayal by a friend, means He trusted him. "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
(Psalms 41:9)

Now again, thinking from the realm of God, why or how rather, could you be betrayed by someone who was never a believer to begin with? Betrayed means that something happened from good to bad. Judas in my opinion was saved, and thus being apostate is the only way to truly betray Christ. IF one never believed, to begin with. Or if Judas was never saved, then the prophesy about trust would be wrong, for Jesus would not have trusted him. After all would you trust someone who you knew ahead of time would betray you with a kiss?

You hold a different view and I can agree to disagree on the matter, it is not a Salvation Matter and it is likely God will jerk our tails when we arrive in Heaven and straighten us both out about our theology. :nod

 

[Papyrus_dust]

You hold a different view and I can agree to disagree on the matter, it is not a Salvation Matter and it is likely God will jerk our tails when we arrive in Heaven and straighten us both out about our theology. :nod

Now that's a cool way to look at it. There I write a novelette and you say something short and sweet that just gets it out there and to the heart of the matter.
Well done sir.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Scripture?

No, your mind isn't stronger than God's will for you. God's foreknowledge of who would come into his grace and who would reject it.

Jesus would have to throw you away and reciprocate your turning away from him. He does not. He promises that.And he died to keep his promise. Praise the LORD!

God knows who are his and who are not. That's why not everyone on earth for all time have their name written in a one and only lambs book of life before the world was created. Those who God knew would accept the not so free when you think about Christ's suffering on the cross , gift of eternal salvation and immortal life. And who would reject it. And all before he created the heavens and the earth.

Sure, there are those who inhabiting this mortal coil using the limited mortal consciousness can say they're Christian. They can go through all the motions too. Repent, baptism, all that. And while they think they're in Christ, God actually knows their heart and if they are. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Psalm 116. And he knows who are not his own. God is eternal and he is eternally knowing, sovereign. No thing is greater than his power as source from whence all is. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:44

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.
The beginning of that chapter 10 , all of it glorious reading that may help your understanding, speaks of those who think they're in Christ but really , as God knows, are not. They are thieves and robbers. They can't leave Christ's hand because God knows they were never really there in the first place. The delusion therefore is in that false christian because while they may think they're in Christ and then dedicate themselves to walking away for the rest of their life, God knows if they are his. And that eternal spirits thoughts is all that matters.
That person could be a true believer. They were just led away by the worlds trappings. However, just because they turned their back on God, Christ, that never means God, Christ, turned his back on that true believer. Even when they imagined they were no longer that.
The parable of the shepherd seeking after but one in his flock that goes astray? Familiar? Does that parable say something like, if the sheep were to look at the shepherd and doubt the security the shepherd afforded him, the shepherd would let the lamb down to suffer the fate deserving. Because the lamb's thought of itself is greater than the power that sent its voice to inform the sheep of its place in his plan?
No.
My thoughts aren't greater than God's knowledge of me before he created this world I live in. And hey, I could be deluded thinking I'm called and saved. I'll find out in the end. The point being, God knows. God said his covenant with his sheep that are called to his son is everlasting. That's all that matters. That's all that rules in the truth of how things really are beyond the scope and confines of this limited consciousness in this transitory existence called "my" life in "this world".
God knows. And God said he gives eternal salvation and eternal life to those who believe and are in his grace. Thinking we actually can change that is thinking this tiny mortal self has a will greater than the eternal infinite power that made it from the dust of the ground in the beginning.
And no doubt, if arriving in Heaven after entertaining such a notion, one would have a good chuckle with God for having been so silly. And so self-assured as that. God knows his son came to tell self it ain't all that. And what it really is will spend eternity in one place or the other finding that out.

God knows it is not my place to change your mind when his word does not assist your understanding.
God be with you.

Thank you for the reply, however, I can't see your posts mishandling of the concepts of a reprobate, an apostate and the concepts of Judas. You asked for scripture and every post now has had one or more verses. Hebrews 6:4-8:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.​

 

[godsquadgeek]

You hold a different view and I can agree to disagree on the matter, it is not a Salvation Matter and it is likely God will jerk our tails when we arrive in Heaven and straighten us both out about our theology. :nod

Yes sir, this debate has been argued for hundreds of years. Churches literally split apart on this issue. So thats a good perspective to have, good post.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Thank you for the reply, however, I can't see your posts mishandling of the concepts of a reprobate, an apostate and the concepts of Judas. You asked for scripture and every post now has had one or more verses. Hebrews 6:4-8:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.​

No confusion nor conflict with what I said. It in fact is in keeping with that. How you are mishandling the scripture is wrong.
Eternal salvation.
For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created." (Revelation 4:9-11)

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Yes sir, this debate has been argued for hundreds of years. Churches literally split apart on this issue. So thats a good perspective to have, good post.

Those were foreknown by God too. The gifts of God are irrevocable. Those churches that split in upholding that side of the argument that says what amounts to, God lied, are exactly what God foresaw. Those whom claimed to be his, but who's name he never knew.

 

[Randy]

I was thinking about Judas. Now pretend to be God ( in a non idolatrous fashion) for a minute. Say you created a perfect group of people strong enough to get the job done but weak enough to be seen as everyday people. Now when Judas was chosen to be a disciple he was a friend. The prophecy in the psalms about betrayal by a friend, means He trusted him. "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
(Psalms 41:9)

Now again, thinking from the realm of God, why or how rather, could you be betrayed by someone who was never a believer to begin with? Betrayed means that something happened from good to bad. Judas in my opinion was saved, and thus being apostate is the only way to truly betray Christ. IF one never believed, to begin with. Or if Judas was never saved, then the prophesy about trust would be wrong, for Jesus would not have trusted him. After all would you trust someone who you knew ahead of time would betray you with a kiss?

The fact that he took money from the collection bag and was noted as a thief by the other Apostles would suggest to me he never had a heart change or spirit of repentance. He continued to sin. And he was called a Devil before he betrayed Jesus.

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
Rnady

 

[godsquadgeek]

No confusion nor conflict with what I said. It in fact is in keeping with that. How you are mishandling the scripture is wrong.
Eternal salvation.
For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created." (Revelation 4:9-11)

Sin is judged, 1 Corinthians 6:9 Ephesians5:5

God is not mocked what a man sews, that shall he reap. I have dozens of verses, (you asked)

 

[Papyrus_dust]

The fact that he took money from the collection bag and was noted as a thief by the other Apostles would suggest to me he never had a heart change or spirit of repentance. He continued to sin. And he was called a Devil before he betrayed Jesus.

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
Rnady

Didn't our Lord forgive everyone when he died on the cross? Didn't he ask the father to do that when he uttered, father forgive them for they know not what they do.

 

[godsquadgeek]

The fact that he took money from the collection bag and was noted as a thief by the other Apostles would suggest to me he never had a heart change or spirit of repentance. He continued to sin. And he was called a Devil before he betrayed Jesus.

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
Rnady

Why would God almighty put a thief as a disciple. Why not allow people to fall away that way God is not blamed for their sin?

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Sin is judged, 1 corinthians 6:9. Ephesians5:5

God is not mocked what a man sews, that shall he reap. I have dozens of verses, (you asked)

Yes, sin is judged. But the saint is not a sinner. There are dozens of verses.
And we do indeed reap what we sew. That's why after life there are two judgments. Whether at the same time or separate is irrelevant. Those who died in their sins reap what they sewed. Those who died in Christ reap their rewards accordingly.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Why would God almighty put a thief as a disciple. Why not allow people to fall away that way God is not blamed for their sin?

You believe God is blamed for peoples sins?

Maybe the meaning of Judas is to inform those who seek Christ that God's word saves anyone for whom it resonates. Even a thief.

 

[Randy]

Why would God almighty put a thief as a disciple. Why not allow people to fall away that way God is not blamed for their sin?

So that the scriptures would be fulfilled. God didn't make Judas not believe Judas was always a devil one who took 30 pieces of silver to betray even the Son of God.

 

[godsquadgeek]

You believe God is blamed for peoples sins?

Maybe the meaning of Judas is to inform those who seek Christ that God's word saves anyone for whom it resonates. Even a thief.

not all sin, the sin of rejecting Christ is one example of a sin that was not forgiven. Also the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth it not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “

1 John 2:3-5


“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”-1 John 2:29



“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” -1 John 2:6-7


18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18


“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father in not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”-1 John 2:15-17

 

[godsquadgeek]

You believe God is blamed for peoples sins?

Maybe the meaning of Judas is to inform those who seek Christ that God's word saves anyone for whom it resonates. Even a thief.

who put a thief as a disciple? God or judas? Both. God did so, just as much as Judas did. But if Judas has the free will to reject Christ after believing initially, then the blame falls on HIm. If he does not have the free will then it becomes God's fault, because HE was elected to that position.

 

[godsquadgeek]

But the saint is not a sinner. There are dozens of verses.

here is a few for you:

1 John 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

do you still want to say , "the saint is not a sinner?"

 

[godsquadgeek]

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