When Even God gives up on us (Romans 1:26-2:1)

[godsquadgeek]

Apparently God has developed a mental barrier in His children to discern right and wrong (the law of conscience). But in some occasions God may decide to retract His staying power over our mental abilities in a way our mental capabilities become hindered and those who commit these types of evils (unthankfulness, unbelief, vain, entitlement -Romans 1:21), those who commit those types of evils find their culmination and fulfillment only in more despair (Romans 1:22). Hurt and potentially a depression or insanity (-Romans 1:24,26,28). There is part of a poem that I wish to share at this point that really helps describe what is happening here to the saved soul that makes it depart from living faith.

There is a time, we know not when,​

A point we know not where,
That marks the destiny of men
To glory or despair.​

There is a line by us unseen,​

That crosses every path;
The hidden boundary between
God’s patience and his wrath.​

To pass that limit is to die–​

To die as if by stealth;
It does not quench the beaming eye
Or pale the glow of health.​

The conscience may be still at ease,​

The spirit lithe and gay;
That which pleases still may please,
And care be thrust away​

But on that forehead God has set,​

Indelibly a mark
Unseen by men, for men as yet
Are blind and in the dark​

And yet doomed man’s path below​

May bloom as Eden bloomed;
He did not, does not, will not know,
Or feel that he is doomed​

He knows, he feels that all is well,​

And every fear is calmed;
He lives, he dies, he wakes in hell,
Not only doomed, but damned.​

Oh, where is this mysterious bourn​

By which our path is crossed;
Beyond which God himself hath sworn,​

That he who goes is lost.

a partial poem by Joseph Addison Alexander (1809-1860), called "The Hidden line"

this salvation that cannot be lost but forfeited, and left is talked about in Hebrews 6, where we see just as Jesus a few verses earlier tasted death for all men (Heb 2:9), we see that some will taste of life, and yet still die (Hebews 6:4-6)

Yes we are saved by faith alone, but some times we can sin one too many times, in a way that that unrepentant sin will decieve us as into not believing in Christ any more. God may at that point harden your heart, and there will be no more option for repentance after that. But with God all things is possible. And God can cause us to turn around, but again He won't give you salvation if you really want hell. It's a very sobering message, the difference between the wicked and the saved is one thing. Repentance. We are now something that we were not before. And we are thankful for that. ​

 

[I_love_Springtime]

It's interesting how Paul refers to the self-righteous "circumcised" religious people next, saying that as they condemn the behavior of the heathen who have unbelief, greed, unthankfulness, adulteries and have been given over to their own lust - that these religious people cannot escape judgment, since they do the same things from their own hearts.

We've all been unbelieving, greedy, unthankful and committed adulteries at one time or another. And I think we've all been self-righteous too. So everyone falls short of the glory of God - blatant sinners and secret self-righteous sinners alike.

But for either case, whether we've been given over to our degrading lusts, or have snubbed Jesus and been hypocritical, I believe God gives more grace for both cases. And you're right, we have the gift of repentance available to us.

You brought up a good point that unrepentant sin could deceive us to not believe in Christ anymore. And likewise, unrepentant self-righteousness can lead a person to not believe in Christ at all.

 

[godsquadgeek]

It's interesting how Paul refers to the self-righteous "circumcised" religious people next, saying that as they condemn the behavior of the heathen who have unbelief, greed, unthankfulness, adulteries and have been given over to their own lust - that these religious people cannot escape judgment, since they do the same things from their own hearts.

We've all been unbelieving, greedy, unthankful and committed adulteries at one time or another. And I think we've all been self-righteous too. So everyone falls short of the glory of God - blatant sinners and secret self-righteous sinners alike.

But for either case, whether we've been given over to our degrading lusts, or have snubbed Jesus and been hypocritical, I believe God gives more grace for both cases. And you're right, we have the gift of repentance available to us.

You brought up a good point that unrepentant sin could deceive us to not believe in Christ anymore. And likewise, unrepentant self-righteousness can lead a person to not believe in Christ at all.

Yes it is unrepentant sin that deceives and thus turns to apostacy. But not just typical sin, but lifelong proud sin. Sin that we wish to recruit others to do. Don't underestimate this sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's not that God gives up on anyone as He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9, 10, but that man gives up on God to easily, especially when they can not get their own way as they turn from God and become lovers of the world.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[godsquadgeek]

It's not that God gives up on anyone as He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9, 10, but that man gives up on God to easily, especially when they can not get their own way as they turn from God and become lovers of the world.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

What do you call it when "God hardens hearts " as in pharoah? I call it giving up on them.

 

[Mike]

What do you call it when "God hardens hearts " as in pharoah? I call it giving up on them.

I call it God using Pharoah to achieve His purpose, consistent with Romans 13:1. In order to give up on someone He'd have had to believe in him at one point and lost hope. That sounds like a whimsical god; not an omniscient God. Prov 16:2

 

[godsquadgeek]

I call it God using Pharoah to achieve His purpose, consistent with Romans 13:1. In order to give up on someone He'd have had to believe in him at one point and lost hope. That sounds like a whimsical god; not an omniscient God. Prov 16:2

it's called hardening because God is giving up on him. It's not that He is whimsical, it's that some times people aren't worth the effort anymore.

 

[WIP]

it's called hardening because God is giving up on him

Provide supportive Scripture reference for this view.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I call it God using Pharoah to achieve His purpose, consistent with Romans 13:1. In order to give up on someone He'd have had to believe in him at one point and lost hope. That sounds like a whimsical god; not an omniscient God. Prov 16:2

(since you didn't have a mod hat on I suppose I can reply to this)

logic itself tells us that when God hardens one's heart that He is giving up on them. It's a rational deduction. Sort of like when someone says 2 plus 2 equals 4. You don't need a verse for that stuff. It's logic. The only way someone can get out of this logic is to redefine hardening, which is unbiblical. But I suppose I can post a verse on hardening.

A hard heart is an obstinate and calloused heart that fails to respond to God or obey him. A hard heart is blind to the precious value of the gospel and refuses to embrace Christ (Rom. 11:8). Most precariously, a hard heart is synonymous with spiritual ignorance and alienation from God (Eph. 4:18).

But does God actively harden the hearts of sinners? And if so, why?

Without question, the answer is yes, he does. The Bible speaks of God's active agency in hardening hearts with unmistakable bluntness.

Maybe the clearest example is Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus. God hardened his heart in obstinacy on purpose. .

We find another example in John 12:36-43, showing Jesus unmistakably connecting unbelief in his day with the hardening of God.

above section from:https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/you-asked-does-god-harden-a-believers-heart/

 

[for_his_glory]

What do you call it when "God hardens hearts " as in pharoah? I call it giving up on them.

It's not giving up on them as God gave them over to a reprobate mind as they rejected God and have no hope of salvation as they have allowed their hearts to be hardened by God as being none of His.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I call it God using Pharoah to achieve His purpose, consistent with Romans 13:1. In order to give up on someone He'd have had to believe in him at one point and lost hope. That sounds like a whimsical god; not an omniscient God. Prov 16:2

Hi Mike, Scripture says, Who are we to ask God,"why did you do things and then blame us for it," (My paraphrasing) (Rom. 9:19). Read Romans 9:6-33 to get the full teaching. What do you understand from these Scriptures?

 

[godsquadgeek]

It's not that God gives up on anyone as He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9, 10, but that man gives up on God to easily, especially when they can not get their own way as they turn from God and become lovers of the world.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Here you are saying Man gives up on God, not that God gives up on man, and that would be false as the exodus verse I just mentioned shows God hardened pharoah's heart, not that pharoah gave up on God. Although I personally believe that sin is the first step in the fact that God hardens hearts. Due to other versus such as romans 1. God giving them over to a reprobate mind was due to sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why did God harden his heart, as it was because God knew that through His patience and longsuffering, 2 Peter 3:9, towards Pharaoh had come to an end as like the Pharisees as they did not confess Christ, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God, John 12:42, 43. You will see this when you read the whole of John 12:27-50.

 

[WIP]

Here you are saying Man gives up on God, not that God gives up on man, and that would be false as the exodus verse I just mentioned shows God hardened pharoah's heart, not that pharoah gave up on God. Although I personally believe that sin is the first step in the fact that God hardens hearts. Due to other versus such as romans 1. God giving them over to a reprobate mind was due to sin.

As I see it, Pharaoh had already denied God and if he was anything like most Pharaohs, he claimed himself to be a god.

Edit: forgot to post my reference.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

 

[Mike]

logic itself tells us that when God hardens one's heart that He is giving up on them. It's a rational deduction. Sort of like when someone says 2 plus 2 equals 4. You don't need a verse for that stuff. It's logic. The only way someone can get out of this logic is to redefine hardening, which is unbiblical. But I suppose I can post a verse on hardening.

For the sake of brevity, I only quoted part of your response. Nowhere in anything you said did you offer support for your conclusion that God gave up on Pharoah. Using your logic to make this assumption doesn't demonstrate evidence. It doesn't even make sense to me.

Hi Mike, Scripture says, Who are we to ask God,"why did you do things and then blame us for it," (My paraphrasing) (Rom. 9:19). Read Romans 9:6-33 to get the full teaching. What do you understand from these Scriptures?

Hi Douglas.

I'm not sure how this relates to what I said, but you're much more insightful than I am. Before I set out to do the study you've assigned me, perhaps you could explain. Thank you, brother.

 

[godsquadgeek]

As I see it, Pharaoh had already denied God and if he was anything like most Pharaohs, he claimed himself to be a god.

Edit: forgot to post my reference.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

But that verse does not mention pharoah. We can only assume, but I would say the defining character of a ceared conscience is sin. Yes it most probably meant pharoah was not saved but as in the op Hebrews 6:4 declares that this can happen to the saved as well.

 

[godsquadgeek]

For the sake of brevity, I only quoted part of your response. Nowhere in anything you said did you offer support for your conclusion that God gave up on Pharoah. Using your logic to make this assumption doesn't demonstrate evidence. It doesn't even make sense to me.

Hi Douglas.

I'm not sure how this relates to what I said, but you're much more insightful than I am. Before I set out to do the study you've assigned me, perhaps you could explain. Thank you, brother.

Look, if you were God, and you hardened someone's heart to the point they could not, even if they wanted to repent. after all, that's what hardened means. his conscience was worse than seared, but logic does prove my point even if you happen to disagree with it. But you are free to redefine hardened if you wish. Using scripture. Romans 1 is my verses, because it mentions sin when hardening ones heart.

 

[MCoop]

Here you are saying Man gives up on God, not that God gives up on man, and that would be false as the exodus verse I just mentioned shows God hardened pharoah's heart, not that pharoah gave up on God. Although I personally believe that sin is the first step in the fact that God hardens hearts. Due to other versus such as romans 1. God giving them over to a reprobate mind was due to sin.

The absolute Sovereignty of God must be taken into consideration when it comes to God hardening a heart, as in the case with Pharaoh. Unregenerate mans natural predisposition towards sin is rebellion and unbelief. Man has no power or will to turn from his natural state, apart from Gods mercy , restraints and the power of regeneration. So left to his own, Pharaoh grew more hostile towards God. Pharaoh was a vessel fitted for destruction to bring God glory as Romans 9 states. And yet pharaoh is held responsible for his sin and rebellion. God uses sinful man and his actions to bring about His purpose for His glory. “The kings heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will.. proverbs 21:1. As far as believers in Christ, Gods elect, vessels of mercy prepared for glory.. How can God give up on them? For He chastens whom He loves. And what or who shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?? Romans 8. Nothing, for God is faithful and is able to keep us by His power and Spirit

 

[godsquadgeek]

The absolute Sovereignty of God must be taken into consideration when it comes to God hardening a heart, as in the case with Pharaoh. Unregenerate mans natural predisposition towards sin is rebellion and unbelief. Man has no power or will to turn from his natural state, apart from Gods mercy , restraints and the power of regeneration. So left to his own, Pharaoh grew more hostile towards God. Pharaoh was a vessel fitted for destruction to bring God glory as Romans 9 states. And yet pharaoh is held responsible for his sin and rebellion. God uses sinful man and his actions to bring about His purpose for His glory. “The kings heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will.. proverbs 21:1. As far as believers in Christ, Gods elect, vessels of mercy prepared for glory.. How can God give up on them? For He chastens whom He loves. And what or who shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?? Romans 8. Nothing, for God is faithful and is able to keep us by His power and Spirit

Well with Romans 9 in consideration it focuses more on the sovereignty of God but Romans 1 does not focus on that and we must take every verse into consideration so one must prove that reprobate minds and hardening of heart is independent of personal sin, which from my reading of the scripture seems very difficult. For example there are over 100 verses signifying that one must repent of sin to be saved, as well as have faith. Many times they are the same act, but I don't think they have to be. Yes we are saved by faith alone, but some times we can sin one too many times, in a way that that unrepentant sin will decieve us as into not believing in Christ any more. God may at that point harden your heart, and there will be no more option for repentance after that. But with God all things is possible. And God can cause us to turn around, but again He won't give you salvation if you really want hell. It's a very sobering message, the difference between the wicked and the saved is one thing. Repentance. We are now something that we were not before. And we are thankful for that.

 

[for_his_glory]

I once was blind and knew not God, but then I heard Him calling me and I answered His call. Pharaoh was blind to Gods amazing grace and rejected God's call and warnings to let His people go and paid the consequences for his rebellion. God has predestined from the foundation of the world who are His and the rest will have their hearts hardened for Gods purpose that through his great power and authority in His chastisements others may fear the wrath of God and turn back to Him.