[_ Old Earth _] where did god come from

[Quath]

I just want to say that my experience is very similar to what ThinkerMan outlined. I use to be Christian, but I had small doubts. So I just wanted to be sure I was worshiping the right god if there was one. (It would suck to worship the wrong god ane make Allah, Buddha or Zeus mad).

So I prayed for just a sign to show me that I was on the right path. The prayers went on but I never saw a sign. I finally came to the idea that if God wanted me to believe, it would be extremely easy for Him to show me. So since He didn't, then He should understand why I didn't. If He sends me to Hell for that, then He is not a god I would want to worship. (My integrity intact in hell.)

Quath

 

[50]

But since I don't, I simply concentrate on enjoying this, my one life, to the fullest I can, with no expectation of reward or punishment after I'm done with it

i can understand that very much

If He sends me to Hell for that

he sent me there once but i came back 2 years later

the hell i am talking about was called green hell

i will see if you know of what i speak

 

[samuel]

I don't think someone can be christian, and then decide not to be, religious maybe but not christian.
Second God explains the problem in John 3:18 pretty well.

John 3:18

18 : He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

KJV

So you see God does not judge anyone, nor condemn. It’s like a highway sign drive 55 the choice is yours to obey the law or not, so it is not the officer that gives you the ticket that judges you. You have chosen not to obey the law, and you alone are guilty.

 

[Quath]

So you see God does not judge anyone, nor condemn. It’s like a highway sign drive 55 the choice is yours to obey the law or not, so it is not the officer that gives you the ticket that judges you. You have chosen not to obey the law, and you alone are guilty.

So if you die and find out that the Muslims were right and you were denied heaven, would you feel that Allah had been cruel? Or say the Mormons were right and you were denied seeing God or Jesus for the rest of eternity. They could easily use your same arguments to say that the rules were clearly stated, you just chose to disobey them.

Quath

 

[samuel]

That's not very likely to happen, since the Muslims or Mormons neither one know God. The one they know, surely would not be God you would find. Or be dealing with. :

 

[Quath]

That's not very likely to happen, since the Muslims or Mormons neither one know God. The one they know, surely would not be God you would find. Or be dealing with. :

That is fine. It is just a hypothetical. If you died and it had turned out that Mormons were right, would you feel it was an unfair test. That reminds me of a South Park episode:

[Hell, waiting area. Many souls are there, wondering where they are, and why.]
Stephen: Where, where am I?
Man: Where are we?
Man 2: No doubt about it…
Woman: What's happening??
Man 3: Oooooooooh!
Speaker: Hello, newcomers, and welcome. Can everybody hear me? [taps the mic a few times] Hello? Can everybuh-? Okay. [the crowd quiets down] Uh, I'm the hell director. Uh, it looks like we have about 8,615 of you newbies today, and for those of you who are a little confused, uh, you are dead, and this is hell, so, abandon all hope and uh yada yada yada. Uh, we are now going to start the orientation process, which will last about-
Man 4: Hey, wait a minute, I shouldn't be here. I was a totally strict and devout Protestant! I thought we went to heaven!
Hell Director: Yes, well I'm afraid you were wrong.
Soldier: I was a practicing Jehovah's Witness.
Hell Director: Uh, you picked the wrong religion as well.
Man 5: Well, who was right? Who gets into heaven?
Hell Director: I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.
Crowd: [disappointed] Awww.

Quath

 

[ThinkerMan]

I don't think someone can be christian, and then decide not to be, religious maybe but not christian.
Second God explains the problem in John 3:18 pretty well.

John 3:18

18 : He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

KJV

So you see God does not judge anyone, nor condemn. It’s like a highway sign drive 55 the choice is yours to obey the law or not, so it is not the officer that gives you the ticket that judges you. You have chosen not to obey the law, and you alone are guilty.

I thought only God could judge or condemn.....You moved the goal posts again. This is what you said before....

The problem is no one can come to that kind of faith, unless the Father calls them first.

You officer/judge/speed limit argument is completely different from your previous post....I thought we agreed that God alone can show me that Jesus is the path to resurrection.

So back to my four answers....which one accurately describes why I am damned?

 

[samuel]

NO NO.

That's where it does not pay to be a hard standing Calvinist. If you were to take Calvin’s opinion that the call of grace was irresistible. Then Christ statement, that no one comes to me, but that the Father draws him first. And try to make John 3:18 fit, you would be in trouble. Except for the fact you can make them fit, God first offers the truth by grace to those he has chosen, then it is up to man to respond to that revealed truth.

So again when the State posted that 55 sign, it is up to you to obey, if you don’t then you alone are guilty. The state does not have to convict you, you have chosen to do that yourself.

So now we go back to the fact God does not choose to give Grace to all men. But the rules are still plainly there for all to see, so there is still justice in that. Back to the 55 sign, some men are responsible to their conscience to obey that sign. Others are not, so does that change the consequences for not obeying no!. And the penalty is the same for all who do not obey. So all Calvinists do not even understand what Calvin was trying to say, if even Calvin himself did?.

So when we hear the Gospel preached, the facts have been stated. Some will respond from Grace given, others will not. Some just plainly don't choose to believe. So there is no diffrence in those who refuse.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Ok...I'll follow your analogy...

Let's say I never speed....I go 51 my whole life. However, I have never seen the speed limit sign, nor do I believe it exists at all...I just like to drive slow.

In other words, I live by the Golden rule, live a moral life, but do not believe in God or Jesus whatsoever.

Am I to be punished?

On a related note, you concede that all men are not called (or given Grace). Then how can I be blaimed? Why should I be punished if I never knew there was a speed limit? If God is perfectly just, how is this fair?

If I am not called, why should any Christian blaim me for any of my actions, my lack of faith, my paganism? Why missionaries, or conversions, or preaching on the corner?

(I'm beginning to think this thread is off-topic and belongs on a different forum, but perhaps the mods will let us finish this up a bit...I am enjoying this discussion)

 

[samuel]

Well that is the usual atypical response to the argument. First we do not think in the same terms that God does, and we are incapable of understanding them. Paul must have had to defend himself to the same question, here is his response.

Rom 9:18-23

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

KJV

By the way this is where Calvin got his idea of irresistible grace. But failed to see that in the end the choice to obey is still up to the man. If it were not so then there would be no justice. These verses only make it clear that God has chosen to give grace to some, and not to others.

Fortunatly they don't have signs around their neck. So then we are responsible to take the Gospel to all. Because we do not know who God has called, and who he has not. The same truth that sets you free, also sorts them out.

Paul also said about the law, so God judgement remain righteous. That all men are under the law, so even those who have not been given it are responsible. That it is written on their conscience, their conscience either excusing them, or accusing them of their actions.

So we are all given some understanding of right, and wrong. Why does a thief break in after dark, if he is incapable of understanding his actions.

 

[samuel]

#PS. I am not blaming you, or judging you. Only God can do that, if I were blaming you we would not be having this conversation. I once knew a man I called friend who was an agnostic, unfortunately he died a short while ago never changing his mind, and that makes me sad.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Samuel:

I have enjoyed this conversation and felt no judgement whatsoever...you make civil arguments and I have enjoyed this conversation thoroughly.

I appears from your response, that under my four scenarios, I fall under either.

1) God hasn't called me
2) God has, I deny him

Either way, we have arrived at the impasse in our debate. I think we both fully understand each other's point, and simply agree to disagree.

Thanks for the great tet-a-tet.

 

[Guest]

huh if the world couldnt be made without him then

what did he come from he had to come from something he didnt just spawn in from no where

i hope some one will reply to this i am haveing a hard time with this

:B-fly: For those of us who accept the truth of the holy bible,we know
God has always existed,and that it is God himself who created reproduction. You cannot assume that because God made human life a
certain way that he was made from a simular fashion.
God is the Alpha & The Omega!!!
You cannot put God on the same level as man.
There had to ultimately be a first no matter how you try to look at it.
God is the first,amen.
He has always been here. The way humans understand things is not the way God understands things. God's ways are higher,and of course,they would have to be.
God's world is not the same as ours. We are the created,he is not.
What can man really know about God that God did not allow us to know
already?
Why do so many people try to bring God down to their level when that simply cannot happen?
Being made in the image of God is not the same as being God.
We are 3 in 1 as he is,but we are not aware of all things on earth,the planets,the heavens,or the ocean,ect,yet God is,and that should make you
more grateful that God is alive,and in control because none of us could ever be,and why would anyone ever want the job God has?
It would be way too hard,and way too complicated for any human being to ever handle,much less to try and comprehend.
God is excellent,he is great,and he is full of mercy,and goodness!
This should comfort us,not cause us to doubt God.
How can we doubt God when creation testifies there must be a great God who created all forms of life. Each creation is unique,and everything has a design,even our DNA! Our DNA has a code! That is evidence in itself even.
If Job could not tell God how he made everything,what makes us think we could know?
I don't recall that God ever told anyone how he made everything.
God is alive,he is real,and one day,every knee will bow,amen.

 

[Guest]

#PS. I am not blaming you, or judging you. Only God can do that, if I were blaming you we would not be having this conversation. I once knew a man I called friend who was an agnostic, unfortunately he died a short while ago never changing his mind, and that makes me sad.

:Fade-color samuel,you are right!!! Keep it going strong for the Lord,amen.
Man has to get past himself and learn to be humble. This is very rare today. Most people are puffed up and proud with out any real reason to be.
Why be so full of pride if this one life is all you get?
This one life can be taken at any time,so why place all your trust in it?
So many people don't realize that their false pride is keeping them from
God. If we are truly seeking God,and the truth about God,God will light the
way for them and let them know the truth.
a wicked generation always wants a sign,yet God has already given so many. The sign of Jonah is good sign. He didn't want to listen to God,so he was swallowed up by a whale,yet he lived because of God.
Why can't people understand that God has already humbled himself,and has already done everything to save them,all they need to do is admit they need him,and want him in their lives.
samuel,keep teaching the truth. You have a very good gift with it.
may God keep using you mightily,in Jesus our Lord,amen.

 

[Highlander]

Why is it Christians don't get it that some random books of ramblings, and journals written by men, are a pathetic way to defend your position. By your own admission, the first book was written 40 years after Jesus died. Then, 1,946 years later the dead sea scrolls are found, and they aren't even a part of your bible that's supposed to be the word of God, and neither are the other books left out by various entities, yet you still claim it's written by God.

So, here you have this infallible being, who has people writing books to be in a "bible" and yet whole chapters have been excluded, parts of been left in caves and not found for more than thousand years, and are still not included in the big book, not to mention it contradicts itself over and over again, and this is how your prove God exists and what he wants done by his people is laid out in this book. Do you understand that such an imperial being certainly doesn't seem to h ave it together when it comes to putting together his how to manual for humans. Being this is such an important document you'd think it would be a little better presented.

 

[Guest]

Why is it Christians don't get it that some random books of ramblings, and journals written by men, are a pathetic way to defend your position. By your own admission, the first book was written 40 years after Jesus died. Then, 1,946 years later the dead sea scrolls are found, and they aren't even a part of your bible that's supposed to be the word of God, and neither are the other books left out by various entities, yet you still claim it's written by God.

:roll: Why don't some of you get it that God allowed us to have his word in book form despite all those who tried greatly to stop it?
Why don't you understand that God kept books from being added to it when some people tried to add them to our Bible?
Why can't you understand that God is in complete control?
I don't believe we Got The Holy Bible without God putting it together,and I think it's amazing that the dead sea scrolls contain most of the books of
the bible. It's more proof the word of God was around back then too,yet it is not the bible,it's just more evidence.
People have tried to add and take away from the bible,but God's word remains true forever,amen.

 

[Guest]

:D I have a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls in English.
I got it at Hastings Book Store. It is put together by,Geza Vermes
It's the complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English.
For those interested,I think you will all like it alot.

 

[Gary]

Great, thanks blue!

I have "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" translated by Martin Abegg, Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich.

They are three of the world's foremost Dead Sea Scroll (DSS) scholars and they have compiled a Bible (OT obviously) from the scrolls!

Also.... here is something which Highlander should also read to clear up his misunderstanding of the DSS. Rather than DISPROVE the Bible we have today, these finds of the DSS PROVE how accurate the scribes were.

Discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (hereafter DSS) at Qumran, beginning in 1949, had significant apologetic implications. These ancient texts, hidden in pots in cliff-top caves by a monastic religious community, confirm the reliability of the Old Testament text. They provide significant portions of Old Testament booksâ€â€even entire booksâ€â€that were copied and studied by the Essenes. These manuscripts date from as early as the third century B.C . and so give the earliest window so far found into the texts of the Old Testament books and their predictive prophecies. The Qumran texts have become an important witness for the divine origin of the Bible. They provide further evidence against the negative biblical criticism of such crucial books as Daniel and Isaiah.

Read more: http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bible/dss.htm

Peace!

 

[Guest]

Great, thanks blue!

I have "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" translated by Martin Abegg, Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich.

They are three of the world's foremost Dead Sea Scroll (DSS) scholars and they have compiled a Bible (OT obviously) from the scrolls!

Also.... here is something which Highlander should also read to clear up his misunderstanding of the DSS. Rather than DISPROVE the Bible we have today, these finds of the DSS PROVE how accurate the scribes were.

Discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (hereafter DSS) at Qumran, beginning in 1949, had significant apologetic implications. These ancient texts, hidden in pots in cliff-top caves by a monastic religious community, confirm the reliability of the Old Testament text. They provide significant portions of Old Testament booksâ€â€even entire booksâ€â€that were copied and studied by the Essenes. These manuscripts date from as early as the third century B.C . and so give the earliest window so far found into the texts of the Old Testament books and their predictive prophecies. The Qumran texts have become an important witness for the divine origin of the Bible. They provide further evidence against the negative biblical criticism of such crucial books as Daniel and Isaiah.

Read more: http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bible/dss.htm

Peace!

:D Gary,you are so welcome!
And thanks for your link.
Blessings in Christ Jesus to you!

 

[Quath]

Why don't you understand that God kept books from being added to it when some people tried to add them to our Bible?
Why can't you understand that God is in complete control?

So which set of books are you talking about? The Gnostic set of books? The Catholic set of books? The Mormon set of books? I don't see God anywhere helping people decide which of the books are right and wrong.

Quath