[_ Old Earth _] where did god come from

[8000 rads]

[quote="8000 rads":88efb]
That's why I'm an agnostic: both views could be right.

That is not possible if the two views conflict with eachother.

I don't mean both options could be right at the same time. It has to be either one or the other. But I thnik we only have science to learn about how things are, and science -and this is a personal belief- will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of a God. If God actually existed, we would never know through scientific methods. So if someone believes in him, the only thing I feel it is fair to say is "well, it might be".

To avoid total confusion don't say "both views could be right".

Say I don't know which view is right.

You see, what you said coupled with what you are saying makes no sense at all.[/quote:88efb]

BOTH VIEWS COULD BE RIGHT but not at the same time.

I don't know which is right, but you don't either. No confusion. Both could be right, but one of them isn't.

 

[8000 rads]

Science could prove God and disprove certain versions of God.

OK, you're absolutely right. I was taking for granted too many things. I have always lived in a country where Biblical literalists are not as aboundant as in America. Actually, I have never seen one. So, around here, when we say "God" we are talking about a certain version of God, and everybody knows what it means. This makes me little careful when refering to some things. I had in mind the kind of God who cannot be seen, for example, so "God in a talk show" was totally out of my mind. I could never imagine such a thing. This doesn't apply to Jesus, as him being God is debatable.

 

[BenjaminTC]

I don't mean both options could be right at the same time. It has to be either one or the other. But I thnik we only have science to learn about how things are, and science -and this is a personal belief- will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of a God. If God actually existed, we would never know through scientific methods. So if someone believes in him, the only thing I feel it is fair to say is "well, it might be".

Yes, I agree. I think I simply read the emphasis on "both" and you meant it to be on "could."

Disproving the existance of god (small 'g') is impossible. Disproving the existance of God (ie the Biblegod) isn't. You don't have to be omniscient to disprove the existance of a spherical cube. If the traits of God are contradictory, the God cannot exist.

This is an amazing read right here, please take the time to read it.
http://www.exchristian.net/exchristian/ ... rchive.php

 

[8000 rads]

Disproving the existance of God (ie the Biblegod) isn't. You don't have to be omniscient to disprove the existance of a spherical cube. If the traits of God are contradictory, the God cannot exist.

Agreed. The concept of God, however, has evolved through the time. The Catholic God, for example, is difficult to disprove, since the church has changed it as the society evolved. I guess it has something to do with the Catholic Church having social power in many European and (South) American countries. In Spain, where I am from, bishops are always claiming their right to appear on public TV to spread their opinions on poliltics and such. It is sad.

What I want to say besides this little rant is that even Biblical god is not the same everywhere. Many churches believe in the Bible, but don't take it literally. I'm sure you already knew all of this, since you seem to be a sensible and educated person, though.

This is an amazing read right here, please take the time to read it.
http://www.exchristian.net/exchristian/ ... rchive.php

I'm reading it right now!

 

[Quath]

Yeah, I see a lot of New Age beliefs applied to Christianity. It is kind of a spiritual salad bar. Take a dash of savior, add it to the power of chrystals to focus energy and simmer over a fire of reincarnation. Let set for 5 minutes and sprinkle a little faith healing and serve with a side dish of astrology.

My mother keeps trying to convert me, but she rejects a lot of the Bible herself. She doesn't believe that God did the bad things in the OT that he is accredited with. She also doesn't believe that the unsaved go to hell. I point out that she is just picking and chosing what she wants to be true, but she doesn't see it that way.

There is a book that shows that Americans are more likely to believe in a good afterlife than in God. One possible conclusion is that since Americans have a high standard of living, they expect a high standard of death.

Quath

 

[Guest]

Proof please. Again you were not there,and your simpleness cannot phantom what it was like to actually be in an Ark.
As I have stated,I am not concerned with this. What a small thing to turn
into a debate. How did we get Mosquito's?

So, blue, your answer is that the Noah only took 16,000 animals on board, and through evolution was created all the diversity of animals? Hahahaha...that's the biggest joke ever!

You're not concerned with it, because you don't understand it. There simply is not enough room, food, or water to keep these animals alive for that period of time, not to mention Noah and his family.

:B-fly: No,I am not concerned with it because I don't need to be.
God has given me all the evidence I need to know he is real.
Too bad if you cannot handle this,but thats the way it is.
If you want to know if God is real,do what I did,seek him!
I believe what the Bible says. Nothing is impossible with God,only with
man.

 

[Highlander]

Proof please. Again you were not there,and your simpleness cannot phantom what it was like to actually be in an Ark.
As I have stated,I am not concerned with this. What a small thing to turn
into a debate. How did we get Mosquito's?

So, blue, your answer is that the Noah only took 16,000 animals on board, and through evolution was created all the diversity of animals? Hahahaha...that's the biggest joke ever!

You're not concerned with it, because you don't understand it. There simply is not enough room, food, or water to keep these animals alive for that period of time, not to mention Noah and his family.

:B-fly: No,I am not concerned with it because I don't need to be.
God has given me all the evidence I need to know he is real.
Too bad if you cannot handle this,but thats the way it is.
If you want to know if God is real,do what I did,seek him!
I believe what the Bible says. Nothing is impossible with God,only with
man.

Once more, unable to answer the question,she relies on her tired chant of how she believes in god, and poor you, you just don't get it. She claims to be such a scholar, you'd think she'd have rational arguments instead of your basic, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, I believe in God and you don't.

 

[Asimov]

No,I am not concerned with it because I don't need to be.God has given me all the evidence I need to know he is real.

I thought it didn't require evidence to know he is real, only faith.

Too bad if you cannot handle this,but thats the way it is.

Nice dodge blue, shift the argument to me unable to handle the evidence. I'd like to know...what evidence?

If you want to know if God is real,do what I did,seek him!
I believe what the Bible says. Nothing is impossible with God,only with
man.

Then why are you limiting him by saying that the Flood story HAS to be true?

 

[Guest]

HighlanderOnce more, unable to answer the question,she relies on her tired chant of how she believes in god, and poor you, you just don't get it. She claims to be such a scholar, you'd think she'd have rational arguments instead of your basic, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, believe in God and you don't.

:B-fly: If thats the way you feel about it,then thats just the way you feel.
I disagree. You are the big sobbing cry baby who cannot accept the truth,
even from you fellow unbelievers. I have shown you many links to many
websites that show the errors of your secular mind,and repeatedly you
claim to be the expert,and the only one who understands anything.
You put yourself up as if you are more intelligent than even the scholars
or the professionals,and you don't have to be very bright to know that you
cannot do that. Your high opinion of yourself is evidence of your rebellion,
and mean spiritedness towards God and all true christians.
You have nothing to support your fairytales,and you cry when that is
brought into the light.
face facts,you cry like a tiny baby,boo,hoo.
1st Timothy 6:20-21
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=2670
http://www.soulcare.org/Creation/Evolution.html
please read carefully this time. Take your time,o.k?

 

[Guest]

[quote="The Tuatha'an/I thought it didn't require evidence to know he is real, only faith.[/b]

If you want to know if God is real,do what I did,seek him!
I believe what the Bible says. Nothing is impossible with God,only with
man

Then why are you limiting him by saying that the Flood story HAS to be true?

:B-fly: You don't need evidence to have faith that God is real,but God
has given us evidence anyway, in creation.,and I am someone who has had other kinds of evidence,but that doesn't mean I'm better than those
that haven't.
I do not limit God at all,I believe his word. I believe the facts of the bible,
and Noah's ark did exist and everything did happen as the bible says,even
if we were not there and even if all the details were not written down.
You have no ancient book to trace the way you believe to,except ancient
pagan religions. You would rather believe in an impossible explanation for
life instead of the truth. You must have an agenda for this train of thought.
Whatever your excuses are,they are between you and God,amen.

 

[Asimov]

You don't need evidence to have faith that God is real,but God
has given us evidence anyway, in creation.

How do you know that the "creation" is evidence? Have you ever seen any other Gods create? If you haven't then how can you know what a God's creation looks like?

I do not limit God at all,I believe his word. I believe the facts of the bible,
and Noah's ark did exist and everything did happen as the bible says,even
if we were not there and even if all the details were not written down.

That's belief without reason, or logic...that's blind faith. No evidence, no logic, no reason = lunacy.

You have no ancient book to trace the way you believe to,except ancient
pagan religions.

I know nothing of ancient pagan religions, and I don't believe in evolution. Evolution is not a belief.

You would rather believe in an impossible explanation for
life instead of the truth. You must have an agenda for this train of thought.
Whatever your excuses are,they are between you and God,amen.

What's impossible about it?

your God does not exist....so there is nothing between him and me.

 

[Guest]

The Tuatha'an/
your God does not exist....so there is nothing between him and me.



:roll: :roll: :roll: That is very ignorant of you.
You are not devine so you could not know whether God
exists or not. Those that do know God exists know it because
God revealed it to them.
Evolution is impossible to believe because it has "NO" evidence,
it has no witnesses,not even one,and it's not possible that life,as great
as it is could come from nothing. Non living matter cannot,and does
not create or produce life. You really can't be that gullable can you?
Creation is easy to use as evidence of God. Creation is like art,only
real. The animals and the human body,the stars,and all of creation prove
a design is and was involved.
have you ever seen God create anything? What a silly attitude you have.
personally,you can believe anything you please,but you cannot tell God
you have any excuse for not believing him. I like that.
How can you say that creation was made out of nothing and by chance?
Did you see it happen? Of course not,so why not think about what you
are going to write before you write it?

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Evolution is impossible to believe because it has "NO" evidence,
it has no witnesses,not even one,and it's not possible that life,as great
as it is could come from nothing. Non living matter cannot,and does
not create or produce life.

Now you're stating a negative, those are impossible to prove. Well since you've already defined evolution as impossible, any evidence for it happening when presented to you is automatically non-evidence.

 

[Sophistress]

The Tuatha'an/
your God does not exist....so there is nothing between him and me.



:roll: :roll: :roll: That is very ignorant of you.
You are not devine so you could not know whether God
exists or not. Those that do know God exists know it because
God revealed it to them.
Evolution is impossible to believe because it has "NO" evidence,
it has no witnesses,not even one,and it's not possible that life,as great
as it is could come from nothing. Non living matter cannot,and does
not create or produce life. You really can't be that gullable can you?
Creation is easy to use as evidence of God. Creation is like art,only
real. The animals and the human body,the stars,and all of creation prove
a design is and was involved.
have you ever seen God create anything? What a silly attitude you have.
personally,you can believe anything you please,but you cannot tell God
you have any excuse for not believing him. I like that.
How can you say that creation was made out of nothing and by chance?
Did you see it happen? Of course not,so why not think about what you
are going to write before you write it?

Go on Blue; use the watch analogy. We all know you want to. Then you can watch us rip it to shreads.

Has Blue said Evilutionists believe we come from tomatoes yet? If not, it must be about time. Hovind will be so proud of you Blue.

 

[Asimov]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Oohh...I got THREE rolly eyes.

That is very ignorant of you.
You are not devine so you could not know whether God
exists or not. Those that do know God exists know it because
God revealed it to them.

Just like those who know krishna, enlightenment, allah, or the other multitude of religions, know because their God was revealed to them?

Evolution is impossible to believe because it has "NO" evidence,
it has no witnesses,not even one,and it's not possible that life,as great
as it is could come from nothing. Non living matter cannot,and does
not create or produce life.

Two things blue:

1)Evolution does not say anything about life coming from nothing.
2)Non living matter, is not nothing, blue. We come from, and are composed of non-living matter. If you take us apart, we are composed of non-living matter.
3)Non living matter, can and does create and produce life. We have experiments done to show this.

http://www.christianforums.com/t155621
http://www.siu.edu/~protocell/issue1.htm
http://www.theharbinger.org/articles/rel_sci/fox.html
http://www.siu.edu/~protocell/

You really can't be that gullable can you?
Creation is easy to use as evidence of God. Creation is like art,only
real. The animals and the human body,the stars,and all of creation prove
a design is and was involved.

Creation isn't the issue here, blue. It's Creationism, the falsified scientific theory. Evolution has no problem with a Creator. Animals, human body, the stars, are all created naturally, without need of a creator.

have you ever seen God create anything? What a silly attitude you have.
personally,you can believe anything you please,but you cannot tell God
you have any excuse for not believing him. I like that.

Why? I simply go by what reason and logic, and what I honestly feel, and that is that there is no god. If he wishes to punish me for that, then I woudln't want to worship him anyways.

How can you say that creation was made out of nothing and by chance?

I never said it was made out of nothing and by chance blue.

Did you see it happen? Of course not,so why not think about what you
are going to write before you write it?

Did I see it happen? no, but I can see evidence left behind of it happening. And it falsifies Creationism. It doesn't falsify the existence of a god. But that's not the issue here.

 

[Guest]

The Tuatha'an/
your God does not exist....so there is nothing between him and me.




Has Blue said Evilutionists believe we come from tomatoes yet? If not, it must be about time. Hovind will be so proud of you Blue.

:bday: You claim to believe evolution and you can't even spell the
word EVOLUTION yet?

 

[Guest]

Evolution is impossible to believe because it has "NO" evidence,
it has no witnesses,not even one,and it's not possible that life,as great
as it is could come from nothing. Non living matter cannot,and does
not create or produce life.

:wink:

How cute of you!
here's one for you,k?
http://tccsa.tc/archives/cartoons/believe.html
http://www.creationists.org/evolutionisreligion.html
http://www.proving-it.com/ex-atheist.htm
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm

 

[Guest]

The Tuatha'an/Did I see it happen? no, but I can see evidence left behind of it happening. And it falsifies Creationism.
8-) . There is nothing on the planet that can falsify creation.
There is nothing here on earth that supports evolution.
http://www.theexaminer.org/volume5/number3/bible.htm

 

[Sophistress]

The Tuatha'an/
your God does not exist....so there is nothing between him and me.




Has Blue said Evilutionists believe we come from tomatoes yet? If not, it must be about time. Hovind will be so proud of you Blue.

:bday: You claim to believe evolution and you can't even spell the
word EVOLUTION yet?

So you're illiterate and you don't have a sense of humour.

 

[Guest]

The Tuatha'an/
your God does not exist....so there is nothing between him and me.




Has Blue said Evilutionists believe we come from tomatoes yet? If not, it must be about time. Hovind will be so proud of you Blue.

:bday: You claim to believe evolution and you can't even spell the
word EVOLUTION yet?

So you're illiterate and you don't have a sense of humour.

:wink: Are you sure you are not mistaken?
If you knew what you were doing you wouldn't call other people sexist,
and you sure wouldn't accuse God of being a sexist if you understood
your hero Darwin so much. Darwin was a great big sexist if the world
ever knew one,plus a racist.
http://www.rae.org/women.html