Where Do Babies Go When They Die ?

[Quath]

To me there are several hard to solve issues:

1. If babies go to heaven, then the Bible appears wrong that the only way to heaven is through Jesus.

2. If Muslims babies go to heaven and 90% of Muslims stay in the same religion, then if we kill 100 Muslim babies, wen send 100 people to heaven instead of maybe 10.

3. If babies go to heaven, they have have suffered no harm. So abortion harms them not.

4. If babies go to hell, God would appear to be very evil.

5. Maybe the safest option is that babies are unmade. However, there seems to be more scripture against that than for it.

 

[JM]

:-D

 

[JM]

So far no arguments have been presented from Scripture. Either you die and are in Christ by Grace thru faith or you die outside of Christ. Only the children of believers have any hope their children will enter heaven based on the promises of the covenants, outside of covenant their is NO salvation. Notice in Jer. 31 all those in the New Covenant know God...but if you're willing to allow children to have a part in Christ when they die, why not baptise them as well? This is a major question that I've been rolling around in my head for a while and it can affect how you view the nature of the New Covenant and who takes part in it.

The better question when dealing with this topic would be: Are we born in sin and therefore sinners or do we become sinners by what we do?

 

[stovebolts]

Although these verses speak of the Exodus and Pharaoh, it shows that God has the ultimate say in his sovereignty.
Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.

Personally I believe that all children are taken to heaven, but in reality, it is God’s mercy that allows anyone to enter into his presence. Thus, who are we to speak for Him in such authority?
A problem I see with using Psalm 51 to send infants to eternal destruction or to simply vanish, is that it directly links with 2 Samuel 12 where David looses his child as a result of his own sin of having sex with Bathsheba and then having her husband (who was a righteous man) murdered to cover up the fact that he had gotten her pregnant. Anyone who has lost a child knows the grief of loosing a child. It is something that just isn’t natural. In an emotional state, it would be natural to see all the sin that surrounds oneself as grief engulfed ones very soul. David made a big mistake, one that he was facing the reality of. Thus, to say that psalm 51:5 Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me; is to show ones inner turmoil as he confronts his sin to YHWH in this confessional.
In Psalm 139, David also rights; Psalm 139:14-16 I will give thanks unto thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well. My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.
So here we have David’s name written in the book (of life?) ;Before he was born? To this, I liken to Malachi 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith Yahweh. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Yahweh: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. Which co-insides with Romans 9:13.
So it seems to me that children are not born inheriting the sin of Adam (Galatians 6:5
For every man shall bear his own burden ., Ezekiel 18:19-20
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father ? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father , neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son : the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
KJV) and if they are, one can omit Psalm 51 as a resource to show otherwise.
Furthermore, there are many, many other verses that I could post on children and how precious they were to Jesus. Surely Yahweh would not have an infant just to fill a slot in hell. On the note of the child simply ceasing to exist (annalisism), I could almost see that if I believe in it. But I don’t so that only leave one option for me and that simply put is this. God will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy on. It is my prayer that every child that dies, will be in heaven.
God Bless you all in Christ.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...A problem I see with using Psalm 51 to send infants to eternal destruction or to simply vanish, is that it directly links with 2 Samuel 12 where David looses his child as a result of his own sin of having sex with Bathsheba and then having her husband (who was a righteous man) murdered to cover up the fact that he had gotten her pregnant.....

The verse that should settle the question in this thread is:
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

 

[stovebolts]

JM,
What covenant was active from Adam to Noah? What qualifies one to participate in the "New Covenant"?

If it is grace through faith that we are saved, it is for the purpose of doing God's work.

I suppose it all comes down to how you define God's work. Is God here to save you? Or, is he here to save you that you can save others? If an infant dies and it draws an adult closer to God's word, then wouldnt' it be safe to say that God's grace is active in the death of that child which in essence would be the work of God through grace to bring about a stronger faith in the adult or surrounding believers? Again, I'm thinking a little yeast leavens the whole dough... and such is the kingdom of God.

My pet peave is that people think it's all about us (the ME attitude) It's not about ME per se, it's about the community of God. The work is inward, but it's always focued outward toward the community.

God bless, I've ran out of time until probably Monday, possibly Tuesday.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Gabbylittleangel
EDIT: My Bad. Please disregard my post if you quoted it before I am currently editing it.
It's bedtime for me and I wasn't thinking right. (and I hope I edited this post quick enough : )

Peace Sister.

 

[jgredline]

The verse that should settle the question in this thread is:
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

LittleAngel,
This is exactly what I was thinking....
When the baby became ill, David prostrated himself in prayer and fasting. He was deeply grieved. But when he learned that the baby had died, he arose and ate, explaining that the baby could not return, but that he, David, would one day join the baby when he died.

Matthew Henry comments:
Godly parents have great reason to hope concerning their children that die in infancy that it is well with their souls in the other world; for the promise is to us and to our seed, which shall be performed to those that do not put a bar in their own door, as infants do not.

We can be confident that children who die before they reach the age of accountability go to heaven because Jesus said, “Of such is the kingdom of heaven†(Matt. 19:14).
That David possessed a deep understanding of God’s character is evident by the way he responded to God’s judgment. Before the blow fell he prayed, knowing that Jehovah was a God of mercy. After the blow fell he worshiped, knowing that Jehovah was a God of righteousness. He forgot the things that were behind, accepted the divine discipline, and looked ahead to the future. He did not despair because he knew that God would yet bless him. He was right.

On A second, note, according to the verse that LittleAngel quoted, there are two things to note; King Davids baby did not get baptized and the baby did not perform any good works to get to heaven.....If I may also add of my own opinon, but I feel lines up with Gods Character, is that the baby will enter Gods kingdom because of Gods Grace


Mutz, Why am I not surprised by your answer.... :roll:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabbylittleangel
EDIT: My Bad. Please disregard my post if you quoted it before I am currently editing it.
It's bedtime for me and I wasn't thinking right. (and I hope I edited this post quick enough : )

Peace Sister.

:o God is not the author of confusion...StoveBolts on the other hand... :-D

 

[stovebolts]

:o God is not the author of confusion...StoveBolts on the other hand... :-D

LOL, I'm tired and it's way past my bedtime. Please forgive me.
Part of the problem sometimes is that we are quick to read into anothers post what isn't there. I read into your last post something that was not and replied. By the time I hit post, I realized my error and tried to catch it before anyone read it.

Again, it is late for me and my eyes hurt. Take care.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

One last quickie.

On A second, note, according to the verse that LittleAngel quoted, there are two things to note; King Davids baby did not get baptized and the baby did not perform any good works to get to heaven.....If I may also add of my own opinon, but I feel lines up with Gods Character, is that the baby will enter Gods kingdom because of Gods Grace

Baptism was not instituted yet. It was still Circumcision on the 8th day I believe, .. right? How many days old was David's child when he died?

 

[Atonement]

I will have to go back and read the story, but I believe it was stillborn.

 

[jgredline]

One last quickie.



Baptism was not instituted yet. It was still Circumcision on the 8th day I believe, .. right? How many days old was David's child when he died?

True that, but what about the babies that die this side of the cross?
Since the OT is a picture of the NT its safe to say tthat it is a good example..

 

[JM]

JM,
What covenant was active from Adam to Noah?

We can gleam from the example of Cain and Able that a revelation was given with conditions, we know that one was punished for not adhereing to the conditions of that covenant. Reformed theology often calls all OT covenants, "covenants of promise." All covenants are expressions in time of one eternal covenant as explained below...

From carm.org:
1# Requirements and Promises in the Eternal Covenant

1. The Father required of the Son, that He should atone for the sins of those whom the Father had given Him (1 John 2:2; John 6:39; 10:11,15), and should do what Adam failed to do by keeping the law (Gal. 4:4-5; 1 Pet. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:2:22).
2. This requirement included the following particulars:
1. That he should assume human nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).
2. That He should place Himself under the law (Gal. 4:4-5)
3. That He, after accomplishing forgiveness of sins and eternal life, should apply them to the elect (Rom. 5:18; 1 Cor. 15:22; 2 Cor. 5:14).

2# The Relation of the Eternal Covenant and the Covenant of Grace

1. The Eternal Covenant is the model for the Covenant of Grace. The former is eternal, that is, from eternity, and the latter temporal in the sense that it is realized in time. The former is a compact between the Father and the Son as a surety and head of the elect, while the latter is a compact between the triune God and the elect sinner.
1. If there had been no Eternal Covenant between the Father and the Son, there could have been no Covenant of Grace between God and sinful man.
2. The Holy Spirit, which produces faith in the sinner, was promised to Christ by the Father, and the acceptance of the way of life through faith was guaranteed by Christ.

This link might also help:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/06/ ... y-101.html

What qualifies one to participate in the "New Covenant"?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[mutzrein]

That's just it Mutz' babies can't get born again. But God is a just God. And because they cannot say the sinners prayer and get salvation.because they are not old enough. It seems natural that God will not let them perish. We were created to live forever to dwell among God. But after the fall hell came into play. So what I am saying is because' babies can't make that decision. God takes them with Him. Because even though' they were born in sin' they have not made a conscience decision to sin. And' or not to except Christ.

Where does it say that hell came into play?

Actually, after the fall, death came into play.

As Romans says, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.†Man has sinned not because of an act which is defined as wrong. We are all BORN in sin.

And what is the result of sin? Death. Death came through Adam, as it says in 1 Corinthians, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.â€Â

And this was is reason that Christ came - that man can be reconciled to God through Christ. Now we know that it is only in and through Christ that man can receive the gift of God – which is eternal life.

So until a person receives eternal life through the birth of their spirit, by the Spirit of God, he or she remains dead in sin. It matters not, what age they are. There is no age of accountability at which time they somehow cross over from innocence to guilt. This is a fabrication born out of a belief that if you don’t go to heaven, you go to hell and a righteous God will not punish the innocent.

As I have plainly stated, God is righteous and just. He does not send innocents to a place of eternal torment. There is another destination and that is ‘they return to the dust from whence they came’.

Is this so hard to accept?

 

[mutzrein]

Well Mutz,

I suppose that if you had lost a child, you might see why it is a bit callous. Heartless might be a better word.

Of course we grieve for the loss of a loved one. And I understand the grace of God is such that he does not punish innocents eternally. In fact it is only by the grace of God that he chooses some vessels for honour and some for disonour. Should I lie to someone in an effort to comfort them, telling them that they will see their loved one in heaven - when that is not the case?

And I think you will find that God has given me a measure of His character - I am a man of compassion - I mourn with those who mourn.

However, if you do really believe I'm heartless, I'm more than happy to listen to whatever scriptural support you may have for any notion you hold to.

 

[mutzrein]

You are so, so wrong! You have insulted God! ANYBODY who knows him does not believe such nonsence. PLEASE, get to know him. Do you have any idea about the concept of hell. Do you have any idea as to what it is like? ALL babies and aborted fetuses go straraight to Heaven upon their death. They are cared for there and will grow up in Heaven. If you have lost a child, you may be met by your full grown child when you reach Heaven.

No, I have not insulted God. I think though the intensity of your response indicates that you feel insulted. But I can assure you I have no desire to cause offense.

And I can assure you of two more things. I know God . . . and I have a concept on hell which does not include eternal punishment of innocents.

Now I realise that what you have outlined is a concept held to dearly by many in Christendom but I see no basis for it in scripture. I am however happy to discuss it with you if you wish.

 

[unred typo]

JM wrote: “So far no arguments have been presented from Scripture. Either you die and are in Christ by Grace thru faith or you die outside of Christ. Only the children of believers have any hope their children will enter heaven based on the promises of the covenants, outside of covenant their is NO salvation. Notice in Jer. 31 all those in the New Covenant know God...but if you're willing to allow children to have a part in Christ when they die, why not baptise them as well? This is a major question that I've been rolling around in my head for a while and it can affect how you view the nature of the New Covenant and who takes part in it.â€Â

Hmmmn, I thought I felt warmth emanating from this thread but I guess it was just that someone opened up the door to hell to toss in a few infidel infants. I lost our conversation about this same subject, JM, but before I found it I ‘accidentally’ caught you in here frying babies too. I’m rather sad to see no one has even thought of the words of our Lord and Savior, who was quite a children’s advocate. Just for your convenience, I’ll repost my verses and comments here:

Doesn’t being born of God mean that a person has at least a heart with a drop of mercy in it? First, children are not punished for the sins of their parents, not rewarded because of their parents’ righteousness:

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Second, children have a special place in the kingdom:

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Matthew 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

J.Vernon McGee thought the word, 'angels' here should be translated 'spirits' and that the spirits of all children go directly to be with God. Before anyone starts filling the tub, those who think mercy killing children is preferable to an uncertain future, read how God feels about those who harm them:

Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


You see the problem here, JM, is that God is way too free with his love and mercy for your taste since you‘re not even “willing to allow children to have a part in Christ when they die,†while God is not willing that any should perish. The sins of all the world were freely paid for at the cross, and unless you personally reject Christ’s blood to cover your sin, and choose to rebel against him, (hating your brother and not walking in love,) you are accepted in Christ. All that love makes you sick, doesn't it?

:smt078 :smt060

 

[JM]

Show the context of each one of the quotations you used please.

 

[Lewis]

Gabbylittleangel wrote:


The verse that should settle the question in this thread is:
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David is talking about going to the babies body' and that the baby will not return to him' alive in body form.