Where Do Babies Go When They Die ?

[jgredline]

Unread, you are...I have been following your exchange and I have enjoyed it...
I thought if you guys discussing it one on one in the debate forum, would also serve the forum to get things kicked off...You two are a good example of keeping things civil and in context....

 

[Quath]

I’ll wait until you get a chance to answer #1

Heh. Must have missed that.

1. Jesus said to love one another and forgive as you were forgiven, and God would forgive you. This is the Way to Salvation, the believing in Christ, the being in Christ, and the saving faith in Jesus that everyone talks about but few seem to understand what it means. Since babies don’t hate anyone, nor refuse to forgive others, they are ‘in Christ.’

I thought that Christian beliefs are that we are all born into sin (inheirented by from Adam). So God would be accepting a sinful human who has not asked for forgiveness. This would go against the belief that God does not let anyone in heaven who has not asked for forgiveness.

 

[unred typo]

1. Quarth wrote: I thought that Christian beliefs are that we are all born into sin (inheirented by from Adam). So God would be accepting a sinful human who has not asked for forgiveness. This would go against the belief that God does not let anyone in heaven who has not asked for forgiveness.

1. Don’t be blaming me for ‘Christian beliefs.’ It wasn’t my turn to watch ‘em. :wink:
Jesus died and he can apply his blood to whose ever sins he wants. He says about children that “of such is the kingdom of heaven.†You tell him he can’t have the babies…


2.Quarth wrote: “It seems that we are in agreement that if you believe this stuff, then killing Muslim babies will most likely give them a better chance at happiness. However, it seems you dislike this as well. I am not quote sure what your objections are. Would you rather the babies killed go to hell instead? (My point is not that we should do this, but if the logic is carried to its ultimate conclusion, killing Muslims babies can look like a good deed.) â€Â

2.No, I think that you are coming to your own illogical conclusions. Only God can determine when anyone should die. If God chooses any infidel or believer, for that matter, to die, regardless of age, he will end their life and he doesn’t need your help. Why would you take it upon yourself to do what God himself has not told you to do? The day that God speaks to you personally in thundering fire and smoke, and tells you to begin the slaughter, you are on your own. I’m not going to join you in your obvious insanity. In fact, I would try to stop you. The NT covenant is for peace and love and forgiveness, and not for killing. We have been given the instructions from God’s own Son, on how to be saved. Love for God and love for one another. If you want to make a difference, take that message to Muslim suicide bombers and those who think God would want them to kill in his name. How do you know that you might be killing the child who has been appointed, chosen and gifted to reach thousands for Christ? Don’t be messing with God’s plans. Matthew 18:7
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence comes!


3.Quarth wrote: “Murder is illegal killing. It is not killing innocents otherwise America has murdered many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. (So as opposed to casualities of war, they would be murder victims.) â€Â

3. War is a consequence of sin, Quarth. Accidental civilian death is a consequence of war. We are either being punished or avenged and so are the people we fight with and against. Presidents and kings have been given the power to lead us into war for good or evil purposes, and God controls the outcome of it. In the end, let every man be clear in his conscience that he has not sinned against God, because it is God who will judge.


4. Quarth wrote: “Then you believe that hell is separation from God and not torment as described by the Bible. My comments mostly address those that see hell as a torment. â€Â

4. Separation from God is torment. God is all things good, merciful, and loving; the source of light, joy and peace. What kind of existence would it be without those things? A living hell, I would imagine.


5. Quarth wrote: “God says in Genesis 3:21 - "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Therefore, it seems clear that Adam had not eaten from that tree before and was not immortal. But, hey, its theology. Everyone has their own interpretation.â€Â

5.Yup. And some of those don’t make any sense at all. Quarth, when Adam was in the garden, did he have access to the tree of life? (It wasn’t the tree of ‘eternal’ life, was it?) So as long as he could freely eat of the tree, he had access to life. When he was forbidden to eat of it, he was, in effect, given a death sentence. You are freely allowed to partake of the water on this planet. If you are prevented from drinking any more water, you have been given a death sentence. Your life ends at that point when you can no longer function without water, not while you were still freely able to drink it.

6. Quarth wrote:

6. Ok, it was going off topic…:wink:

 

[Atonement]

Unred. I also agree that the two of you should take this to a one on one debate in the new debate forum. This way no outside interference would be allowed. Just a thought...

 

[Quath]

Unred. I also agree that the two of you should take this to a one on one debate in the new debate forum. This way no outside interference would be allowed. Just a thought...

I am ok with a new thread there. Or I can post here. I am decidely undecided.

 

[unred typo]

Quarth wrote: "I am ok with a new thread there. Or I can post here. I am decidely undecided."

I prefer here because when some one gets an inspirational thought from God, they can interject it. I, by no means, feel like I have the last word on this topic that I should presumptuously debate it as such. As someone once said (but it was locked away into Dead Threads :wink: ) the Bible is pretty silent on this. We have to make stuff up from bits of scripture and principles that we have learned. The opportunity for error is huge. If we all put our thoughts together we reveal more aspects than one person can alone. I believe that’s how a body is designed to function.
:fadein:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

... We have to make stuff up from bits of scripture and principles that we have learned. The opportunity for error is huge....

Oooh, there is indeed another option.

People with a personal testimony. There are many. But as many have discovered, that speaking of having a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, and testifying to such, carries very little value among others who also claim to have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. They do not want to hear about what God said to you. They want a chapter and verse or else they believe that it must not be true.

For a parent to claim that they have assurance from the Holy Spirit that their child is with Jesus, is to set ones self up for ridicule, mocking, and degradation...to add to the grief that they have already suffered. This seems to hold true for anyone who has the boldness to speak of the things that the Lord has taught them.

The Lord can heal wounds, and the Holy Spirit can comfort the deepest heart ache and pain. For a parent to step up to the microphone and say
"My child is with Jesus. Jesus told me so."...or for a child to have risen from the dead and speak of the experience, only to be ridiculed and laughed at....well, giving testimony is just too much like casting pearls before swine.

Yet, strangely enough, the reactions and responses, do reveal the hearts. Those with a testimony are the ones who end up ministering to those without one.

The great thing about having such a testimony, is that no matter how many times a non-believer says "Did not", it will never be enough to drown out the Lord saying "It is so."

It is those who will not accept the testimony of someone else's experiences with the Lord who need to make stuff up from bits of scripture and principles that we have learned.
The opportunity for error is huge...

It is indeed.

 

[Quath]

1. Don’t be blaming me for ‘Christian beliefs.’ It wasn’t my turn to watch ‘em. :wink:
Jesus died and he can apply his blood to whose ever sins he wants. He says about children that “of such is the kingdom of heaven.†You tell him he can’t have the babies…

I took the children verse as "children that choose him" not all children.

2.No, I think that you are coming to your own illogical conclusions. Only God can determine when anyone should die.

I think if that were true, Christians would not take medicine. If God wanted you to die, you should. By taking medicine, you are actively fighting death.

Also, God seems ok with war and capital punishment. So God seems to be ok with letting other choose to kill.

The day that God speaks to you personally in thundering fire and smoke, and tells you to begin the slaughter, you are on your own. I’m not going to join you in your obvious insanity. In fact, I would try to stop you.

Would you have gone against people in the Old Testament times that say that God told them in a thounderous voice to slaughter?

How do you know that you might be killing the child who has been appointed, chosen and gifted to reach thousands for Christ? Don’t be messing with God’s plans.

That is a good point. Or maybe you are killing the future Bin Laden.

I agree that the Nt is more about peace than the OT. However, Jesus does say that the laws of the OT are valid until heaven and earth pass. So one could easily conjure up OT laws and support them with this statement from Jesus.

3. War is a consequence of sin, Quarth. Accidental civilian death is a consequence of war. We are either being punished or avenged and so are the people we fight with and against. Presidents and kings have been given the power to lead us into war for good or evil purposes, and God controls the outcome of it. In the end, let every man be clear in his conscience that he has not sinned against God, because it is God who will judge.

So if God controls the outcomes of wars, then he can control the outcome of abortions. God could make the baby come out alive and well. This would be a definite sign that this is what God wanted. As it is, God seems silent on this.

4. Separation from God is torment. God is all things good, merciful, and loving; the source of light, joy and peace. What kind of existence would it be without those things? A living hell, I would imagine.

This is one better way to explain it. It goes against the literal reading of the Bible, but it keeps God from appearing excessively cruel. However, if I am separated from God now and I am not in torment, why should I be in torment in the afterlife?

5.Yup. And some of those don’t make any sense at all. Quarth, when Adam was in the garden, did he have access to the tree of life? (It wasn’t the tree of ‘eternal’ life, was it?) So as long as he could freely eat of the tree, he had access to life. When he was forbidden to eat of it, he was, in effect, given a death sentence. You are freely allowed to partake of the water on this planet. If you are prevented from drinking any more water, you have been given a death sentence. Your life ends at that point when you can no longer function without water, not while you were still freely able to drink it.

Genesis 3:21 seems to imply that if Adam eats of it once and has eaten of the tree of Knowledge of Good [through] Evil, then he will be like the gods. It seems that eating from trees gives permanen ce or else God could have just let the curse wear off from eathing the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good/Evil.

 

[unred typo]

Gabbylittleangel wrote: “The Lord can heal wounds, and the Holy Spirit can comfort the deepest heart ache and pain. For a parent to step up to the microphone and say
"My child is with Jesus. Jesus told me so."…â€Â

This is a good example of how everyone can contribute. Personal testimonies add the reality of Christ in various topics discussed. Unfortunately, the skeptic often comes out in us because we have been scammed before. Gabby, I didn’t mean that we couldn’t know the truth of this subject, but that since there is no verse that states, “the child that dies, not having reached a certain age, goes to be with the Lord‘, we must gather up the instances we do have and piece together a theory of what must be the truth. Personal witnesses are important contributors, even if they might be considered biased by those who don‘t believe their account.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

.... Personal testimonies add the reality of Christ in various topics discussed. .... Personal witnesses are important contributors, even if they might be considered biased by those who don‘t believe their account.

You got it.

Personal testimonies get attacked even when they are full of good stuff that can be verified by teams of doctors and scientist.

Non-believers can be cruel and calloused. What parent who has given their child back to Jesus wants to hand that non-believer a bunch of rocks and say "Here are some stones, throw them at me."?

 

[unred typo]

I took the children verse as "children that choose him" not all children.

That’s the point. All children would choose him. Children love people who are loving, kind and fair who protect them from evil.

I think if that were true, Christians would not take medicine. If God wanted you to die, you should. By taking medicine, you are actively fighting death.

Also, God seems ok with war and capital punishment. So God seems to be ok with letting other choose to kill.

Hey, we agree on something. Too bad it’s off topic. We could go with ‘should parents give their children medicines’ but that would be another topic too. I will say that if God leads you to take medicines, you can trust him and do it.

Would you have gone against people in the Old Testament times that say that God told them in a thounderous voice to slaughter?

You mean as the angry hordes of Philistines were bashing in the back of my head? Heheh… you have to put those bloody days in context of the desperate times they were living in.

That is a good point. Or maybe you are killing the future Bin Laden.
I agree that the Nt is more about peace than the OT. However, Jesus does say that the laws of the OT are valid until heaven and earth pass. So one could easily conjure up OT laws and support them with this statement from Jesus.

Don’t you agree God is a better judge of that? He knows what they are being born into and what their physiological makeup is.

Which law are you referring to?

So if God controls the outcomes of wars, then he can control the outcome of abortions. God could make the baby come out alive and well. This would be a definite sign that this is what God wanted. As it is, God seems silent on this.

He has done that on rare occasions so he could, but for the most part, he allows everyone enough rope to hang themselves with or to climb out of the pit. God is in control and he uses all things to test and teach and mete out blessings and justice. As I quoted before, it must needs that offences come, but woe to those that bring them about.

This is one better way to explain it. It goes against the literal reading of the Bible, but it keeps God from appearing excessively cruel. However, if I am separated from God now and I am not in torment, why should I be in torment in the afterlife?

You only assume you are separated from God now. God is all around you, filling your life with all the good things that you take for granted, restraining the evil enough so we are not wiped off the earth, and keeping the light on. Believe me, you would notice the difference.

Genesis 3:21 seems to imply that if Adam eats of it once and has eaten of the tree of Knowledge of Good [through] Evil, then he will be like the gods. It seems that eating from trees gives permanen ce or else God could have just let the curse wear off from eathing the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good/Evil.

You may be right there:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
I’m not sure what you mean by ââ‚Å“let the curse wear off†though.

 

[Quath]

That’s the point. All children would choose him. Children love people who are loving, kind and fair who protect them from evil.

I think the point of that passage is not to keep kids away from Jesus. Not that all children are automatically given salvation.

You mean as the angry hordes of Philistines were bashing in the back of my head? Heheh… you have to put those bloody days in context of the desperate times they were living in.

More stuff like when Joshua says that God wants the children killed in the cities they were taking over.

Don’t you agree God is a better judge of that? He knows what they are being born into and what their physiological makeup is.

This would seem to imply that we should not have tried to kill Hitler since God made him and God knew what he was doing. It seems that God wants us to make such decisions.

Which law are you referring to?

Laws that say you should kill unbelievers or family that is of another religion or homosexuals or pagans or Sabbath workers.

God is in control and he uses all things to test and teach and mete out blessings and justice.

So this may relate strongly to the idea that babies go to heaven. If you spend eternity in heaven, what use is life on Earth? It is almost 0% of your life. So there must be some purpose. If you are right and life is a teaching ground, then God would not let babies into heaven because they haven't had a chance to learn anything. That would support babies being unmade or reincarnated.

Believe me, you would notice the difference.

If God would turn his presense off and on, then that would be a great sign to me. If I am really tormented by the absense of God, it would see nice of God to remove me from existance rather that see me suffer.

I’m not sure what you mean by “let the curse wear off†though.

Oh, I meant the curse from eating the fruit of good ane evil. If that tree waslike the tree of immortality and wears off, then Adam could come back to Eden. However, the trees could be different. Kind of just guessing here.


You may be right there:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
I’m not sure what you mean by “let te curse wear off†though.[/quote]

 

[mutzrein]

Still waiting . . . and wondering JG

 

[jgredline]

Still waiting . . . and wondering JG

Mutz
What are you waiting and wondering about?

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz
What are you waiting and wondering about?

You made a lengthy cut and paste post attributed to Swindoll, C. R., & Zuck, R. B. Understanding Christian theology on the last page.

I wanted to know which of the 'options', outlined in that post, you agreed with. Perhaps you missed my post?

 

[jgredline]

You made a lengthy cut and paste post attributed to Swindoll, C. R., & Zuck, R. B. Understanding Christian theology on the last page.

I wanted to know which of the 'options', outlined in that post, you agreed with. Perhaps you missed my post?

Oh, I did not see your post...When I found that article, I was only going to cut and paste the first half of it, but then I would have taken those folks wrote out of context....and felt it would be wrong to do that.
I hold to the first view, the first part.....I believe that I will see my two brothers that passed away one day soon.....

 

[unred typo]

I think the point of that passage is not to keep kids away from Jesus. Not that all children are automatically given salvation.

It could be that I have read more into that than is there but since it says ‘of such is the kingdom of heaven’, that would imply that the natural qualities of a child are the attitudes that God accepts in all of us. Since children are those things until they cease to be children, that would indicate that they would be welcomed into heaven.

More stuff like when Joshua says that God wants the children killed in the cities they were taking over.

Like I said, God only knows the stuff that makes up the reasons why one should live and one should die at whatever age. If God indeed commanded them to do those genocides, the reasons were his for ending their existence here. Perhaps they were to be raised by angels and tested in heaven rather than on earth, due to some defect in their genetic makeup and we do not have enough information to make those decisions, only God can. If they acted on their own and stamped it with God’s approval, they will answer for it.

This would seem to imply that we should not have tried to kill Hitler since God made him and God knew what he was doing. It seems that God wants us to make such decisions.

I think I just answered this. Or not. I think the Bible shows that God sometimes uses tragic circumstances and evil men to accomplish his purposes. Punishments serve as testing and training to those left behind. The ones taken early may have passed their tests. There is some truth to the saying, “only the good die young.†Again, we can’t see what is in their hearts. If God uses a madman to test or soften hearts, or if he hardens a heart to continue his purpose, he knows the intents of their hearts and will judge accordingly. You won’t be punished for what God caused you to do, nor will you be rewarded for such, if your intent was not to do it. I think he’s pretty adept at choosing the right tool for the job though.

Laws that say you should kill unbelievers or family that is of another religion or homosexuals or pagans or Sabbath workers.

Those are part of the added laws that were like interpretations of the principles laid out in the 10 commandments, similar to our laws based on the interpretation of the constitution. They were specific to the time and people they were written to. They gave teeth to the law to keep the fear of God upon his very obstinate and rebellious people. The laws that will endure are the principles that Jesus summed up by ‘love for God and one another.’ I believe many were of the ‘God said I could speak for him, and this is what he said’ variety. By Jesus’ day, there were many that needed to be set in order.

So this may relate strongly to the idea that babies go to heaven. If you spend eternity in heaven, what use is life on Earth? It is almost 0% of your life. So there must be some purpose. If you are right and life is a teaching ground, then God would not let babies into heaven because they haven't had a chance to learn anything. That would support babies being unmade or reincarnated.

Or he could test and train chosen ones there. Or he could allow them to spend eternity as a child or infant. Look how happy that would make those who never had the opportunity to love and hold a baby on earth. Because they never developed an evil attitude of unbelief and meanness, they would be happy forever in that age of life.

If God would turn his presense off and on, then that would be a great sign to me. If I am really tormented by the absense of God, it would see nice of God to remove me from existance rather that see me suffer.

I’m afraid the deal is that once personal energy is created, it can never be destroyed. I think the best you could hope for would be eternity as a slug like creature who can do no possible harm or rebellion in God’s kingdom. And that only if upon seeing God and deciding that he wasn’t so bad after all, your rebellion from this life was repented of. If you want to enter the kingdom of God as a full grown perfect man, able to enjoy all it’s incredible features, you would have to repent now and follow the pattern taught by Christ. Maybe only the infant part of you would make heaven, after the rest of the dross is burnt off in the lake of fire. I’m speculating here. I know that God is just and fair and does all things well.

Oh, I meant the curse from eating the fruit of good ane evil. If that tree waslike the tree of immortality and wears off, then Adam could come back to Eden. However, the trees could be different. Kind of just guessing here.

It’s good to make a few guesses, as long as you understand that‘s what they are and don‘t get so attached to them that you can’t put them down when you realize the truth of a matter. Sometimes our guesses help us get from here to there in our understanding. I have always found when the truth comes, as much or as little as my puny brain can hold of it, I will know it is the truth, whether I want to accept it or not.

:smt102 :smt115 :smt045