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Where does the comma go?

TOG

TOG

Member
Ephesians 4:11 lists the so-called fivefold ministries - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Verse 12 gives us the reason why God gave us these ministries. I have seen Eph. 4:12 translated in three different ways. there are only very minor differences in the wording of these translations, and those differences don't change anything. The real difference is in the punctuation. Some Bible versions have two commas in that verse, while others have only one. The versions that have only one comma differ on where it is. This may seem like a minor issue at first, but the placing of commas in this verse can totally change it's meaning. Let's look at the different possibilities. (Since I want to emphasize the punctuation, I'll use the same wording for all possibilities.)
  1. ...for the perfection of the saints, <comma> for the works of ministry, <comma>for the building up of the body of Christ
  2. ...for the perfection of the saints, <comma> for the works of ministry for the building up of the body of Christ
  3. ...for the perfection of the saints for the works of ministry, <comma> for the building up of the body of Christ
So, what's the difference between these three?
  1. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers have three jobs to do - perfect the saints, do works of ministry and build up the body of Christ. The entire workload is put on the people with these ministries.
  2. This is pretty much the same as option 1. but building up the body of Christ isn't listed as a separate item, but as a result of the ministers doing the works of ministry. The entire workload is still placed on the people with the fivefold ministry.
  3. The people with these ministries have only one job - to perfect the saints. It is then the job of the saints (all Christians) to do works of service and thereby build up the body of Christ
There are no commas in the original Greek manuscripts. In fact, there are not even spaces between the words. All the punctuation in our Bibles is put there by the translators. Although the question of where to put punctuation marks is pretty much a non-issue in most cases, there are instances, such as this one, where it can effect the meaning of a verse and thereby effect the beliefs and practices of those who read it.

My question to you all is where does the comma (or commas) belong and why?

The TOG​
 
I asked this very question on another forum several years ago.

You see the same implications I see in where the comma is placed.
 
Here's another one that folks try to change -

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Folks try to change this verse around to mean that there are multiple resurrections of believers.


JLB
 
It seems to me that option 3. above (...for the perfection of the saints for the works of ministry, <comma> for the building up of the body of Christ) is the most logical. Consider what Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. (I Cor. 14::26 ESV)​

Here Paul tells the Corinthians that everyone has something to offer. It seems that it would be contradictory if he then told the Ephesians that everything was to be done by just a few people.

The TOG​
 
It seems to me that option 3. above (...for the perfection of the saints for the works of ministry, <comma> for the building up of the body of Christ) is the most logical. Consider what Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. (I Cor. 14::26 ESV)​

Here Paul tells the Corinthians that everyone has something to offer. It seems that it would be contradictory if he then told the Ephesians that everything was to be done by just a few people.

The TOG​
 
read on eph4 these gifts the 5fold are called and equipped by god not men what would the devil do to fake this the fake says the opposite to what the word says ie:that the evangelist to go out to the world save soul. when in truth the word for the prefection of the saints for the work of the ministry. i believe that the evangelist ministry is to teach the saints how to reconcile people to christ in a none judgemental way as all believers havethe ministry of reconciliation as god was in christ reconciling the world unto himself not imputting their sins against them. there is a vast difference between what men teach and what god actually says the word and the holy spirit the apostle paul wrote by the holy spirit not by men nor through men over and over again and in 1cor ch 3 he warned them you will be under a party spirit .most churches are in fact operating under a party spirit
 
TOG said:
It seems to me that option 3. above (...for the perfection of the saints for the works of ministry, <comma> for the building up of the body of Christ) is the most logical. Consider what Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. (I Cor. 14::26 ESV)​

Here Paul tells the Corinthians that everyone has something to offer. It seems that it would be contradictory if he then told the Ephesians that everything was to be done by just a few people.

The TOG​
Click to expand...
I agree.

In your original post, you state the ,"so called 5 fold ministry." Technically we can't say,"the 5 fold" because that verse only states 4, 2 of which were only temporary(Apostles and prophets)

Apostles and the prophets ended in 96 AD with the completion of revelation. Gods word is complete and has all we need to live the Christian life.

Today we have evangelists and Pastor-teachers(hyphen) that reach and teach Gods completed Word to this world.

Technically we are wrong saying "5 fold" because pastor and teacher are one and the same and should be hyphenated as Pastor-teacher.

So even if one believes apostles and prophets are for today, it should be the "4 fold ministry"
 
gr8grace said:
So even if one believes apostles and prophets are for today, it should be the "4 fold ministry"
Click to expand...
Apostles are church starters.

Prophets did more than just dictate new revelation. They discern and expound on existing revelation.

Knowing this, we know these two offices have certainly not passed away.

And, also, it is true that a pastor must have the gift of teaching. There's no such thing as a pastor that is not able to teach.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Apostles are church starters.

Prophets did more than just dictate new revelation. They discern and expound on existing revelation.

Knowing this, we know these two offices have certainly not passed away.

And, also, it is true that a pastor must have the gift of teaching. There's no such thing as a pastor that is not able to teach.
Click to expand...

Although I agree with your conclusion that the 'Offices' of the church have not passed there is a potential problem that probably isn't worth mentioning but I'll say it anyway. Apostles are more than "church starters". Prophets continue to discern and expound. They also speak forth the Word of God. Prophets are the eyes of the Body (according to what I've been given). There is a difference between being a Prophet (having been installed in the Office of Prophet) and being used in the Gift of Prophecy. And finally, regarding Pastors who are also teachers? That's two separate functions. In a sense, all Christians are under-shepherds even if our only job is to look after a single sheep: me. We see many Pastors today who have stepped in and have been used as Teachers. Perhaps this is simply a way to make up for a shortcoming where men don't heed the call to become Masters. That's a sin battle, right?

In all cases it is the Holy Spirit that sets men into Offices and it is the Holy spirit that distributes His gifts. He is responsible for joining us together into His purpose. I wouldn't count out the Wisdom of the Ages here while looking at the temporary things just yet. Right now it seems like we're in late Summer or the start of the Fall season spiritually. It's a growth period. It's a time from where we may look forward to the promised harvest rain.

What did Solomon say when God asked him what he wanted? Did he seek riches? Fame? Or did he seek wisdom so that he might serve. This too is a gift, is it not?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Apostles are church starters.

Prophets did more than just dictate new revelation. They discern and expound on existing revelation.

Knowing this, we know these two offices have certainly not passed away.

And, also, it is true that a pastor must have the gift of teaching. There's no such thing as a pastor that is not able to teach.
Click to expand...
In the biblical sense, there are no Apostles alive at this time. In the biblical sense there are no prophets at this time.

The pastor-teacher starts churches and He discerns and expounds on the completed word or revelation. They are not going to add or take from what is perfect(the Word)

An Apostle had to be an Eyewitness to the resurrected Lord. Acts 1:2, 22; 1 Cor 9:1.

To qualify, as one of the twelve Apostles, one must be an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8-9.

1 Cor 9:1, “Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?”

The 12 Apostles exercised absolute authority (spiritual dictatorship) over the churches until the Canon of Scripture was completed. The Canon is now the absolute authority.

Apostles exercised absolute authority (spiritual dictatorship) over the churches until the completion of the Canon of scripture (66 Bible books) which is now absolute. Today no one has the right to exercise authority over more than one church. Each local church should be self-sustaining and self-governing.

Apostles received direct revelation from God. All revelation today is through the Word. All writers of the New Testament were either apostles or someone closely associated with an apostle (Mark, Luke, James and Jude).

No one today has or will reach apostolic stature, 2 Cor 12:12. No human being can perform miracles at will today.

Once the Canon of Scripture was complete, (writing of Revelation), the gift of apostleship was withdrawn. The Canon of the New Testament became the basis of modus operandi and the absolute criterion.
 
Sparrow said:
None known to you, that is. I'm okay with that.
Click to expand...

Your definition of "Apostle" is an attempt to expand the previous limited definition from "church starter" (one thing they may be used for) to include another definition altogether. What you've defined for us was the qualifier for the title "Apostle of the Lamb".

Let me remind those who wish to consider this that Jesus, The Christ, is the first apostle. If we count to 12 and call it done? We've not done well in our efforts toward teaching. Let there be teachers (masters) few.

That being said, you've done well enough in the presentation of the doctrine of Cessation.

Congrats.
 
gr8grace said:
I agree.

In your original post, you state the ,"so called 5 fold ministry." Technically we can't say,"the 5 fold" because that verse only states 4, 2 of which were only temporary(Apostles and prophets)

Apostles and the prophets ended in 96 AD with the completion of revelation. Gods word is complete and has all we need to live the Christian life.

Today we have evangelists and Pastor-teachers(hyphen) that reach and teach Gods completed Word to this world.

Technically we are wrong saying "5 fold" because pastor and teacher are one and the same and should be hyphenated as Pastor-teacher.

So even if one believes apostles and prophets are for today, it should be the "4 fold ministry"
Click to expand...

I was wondering how long it would take before someone brought this up. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but there are five ministries listed.
  1. Apostles
  2. Prophets
  3. Evangelists
  4. Pastors
  5. Teachers
The word "and" doesn't indicate that pastors and teachers are the same ministry or that the same person must always do both. It indicates the end of a list. Look at the following lists.
  • Five examples of colors are blue, red, green yellow and pink.
  • Toyotas, Fords and Fiats are cars.
  • In my living room I have a TV, a sofa, a computer, a chair and a bookshelf
Are pink and yellow the same color? Are Fords and Fiats the same? Is a chair the same as a bookshelf? Of course not. That's not what the word "and" means when it's used in this way. When they are found in complete sentences, lists always have a conjuction before the last item. Pastors and teachers are not the same.

The TOG​
 
jesus christ the head of his body which is the church. there is one body many menbers. apostles are not church plants there is only one true church on earth and in heaven. this body has the ability by and with the holy spirit at any time to know what is gods will anywhere on the earth the body is a living spiritual organism just as the church in the book of acts (they were as one ) they all had the same witness in their spirit. plus in the new testament where it mentions a group of believers at a location:it says the called out ones at:
 
In the biblical sense of Apostles, none truly known by you. And I am ok with that.

Thats being a smart butt on my part, but look, there were definite and certain criteria for Apostles. So to believe that Apostles are around today, we have to see and hear these specifications.

1. They had to be eyewitnesses to the resurrected Lord. So are these people claiming to have seen the Lord and personally taught by the Lord? The Lord Jesus Christ himself took the Place of what the Spirit is to do for us today and taught them personally? They have to claim this. Sounding weird yet? One must be an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8-9.

2.They have to be able to perform miracles, signs and wonders at will. They ALL will be able to this. It is Gods way of verifying to us that they are REAL.

Do you think you know an Apostle? Where is He?

If there are really Apostles around we should see miracles, signs and wonders from them and I should have met one by now. Why Hide from the body? The Apostles boldly made the claim and boldly performed miracles,signs and wonders. Where and why are they hiding?
TOG said:
I was wondering how long it would take before someone brought this up. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but there are five ministries listed.
  1. Apostles
  2. Prophets
  3. Evangelists
  4. Pastors
  5. Teachers
The word "and" doesn't indicate that pastors and teachers are the same ministry or that the same person must always do both. It indicates the end of a list. Look at the following lists.
  • Five examples of colors are blue, red, green yellow and pink.
  • Toyotas, Fords and Fiats are cars.
  • In my living room I have a TV, a sofa, a computer, a chair and a bookshelf
Are pink and yellow the same color? Are Fords and Fiats the same? Is a chair the same as a bookshelf? Of course not. That's not what the word "and" means when it's used in this way. When they are found in complete sentences, lists always have a conjuction before the last item. Pastors and teachers are not the same.

The TOG​
Click to expand...
Your using English and English rules to establish your point. What about the Greek?

In the Greek the "and" is kai. And should be A Hyphen. It is known in the Greek language as a "hymdiades" (a dramatic copulated rhetorical conjunction [kai] uniting two definite articles (substantives) or nouns in differing forms to express one idea. Under the Granvel-Sharp rule the kai is present and demands a hyphen; although two words - one spiritual gift].

Bob Jones writes this for the Granvel-sharp rule:

a. In Eph 4:11, God gave the church "pastors and teachers". The first noun "pastors" has the article, and the second "teachers" doesn't, so "teachers" is a further description of "pastors", not a separate category of individuals. This Greek construction means "pastors who are teachers", or "pastor - teachers". There is the gift of "teacher", in 1 Cor. 12:28, but, all of God's true "pastors" must be also "teachers", meaning that they also have the gift of communication. The man who considers himself a "pastor only", and LEADS the sheep all over the countryside, but doesn't FEED them, violates some 22 New Testament passages that exhort the man of God to "teach the Word".
 
in mark christ said of jairus daughter said she is not dead but asleep,they laugh him to scorn. when christ was baptized some said they heard the voice of an angel some heard thunder, but said this is my beloved son...... on another occasion christ spoke and they all accused him of being mad. i was once sent to a so called church spoke to them and they said even if you had a word from god we don't want to hear it i see you say you know greek (apostello) mean
 
You've gotten stuck in your thought here. Quote the book of the Acts of Apostles and tell me again how they chose to replace Judas in order to bring the number of the Apostles of the Lamb to 12 again. I'll agree with you. No problem.

Try to say that there are only 12 Apostles? Pardon me for saying, but that's laughable.

1. They had to be eyewitnesses to the resurrected Lord. So are these people claiming to have seen the Lord and personally taught by the Lord? The Lord Jesus Christ himself took the Place of what the Spirit is to do for us today and taught them personally? They have to claim this. Sounding weird yet? One must be an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8-9.
Click to expand...

Here is the link to 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8-9


Acts 9:1-6
New International Version (NIV)

Saul’s Conversion
9 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”​

1 Corinthians 15:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.​


Where do we find the source for your speculation and teaching in the more sure Word of God?

What you teach is clear but is it founded on the Word of Truth? I've not seen your evidence for that particular claim yet. Try harder, please? To be clear, it is my allegation that you are simply wrong. There is no scripture that I know of that demands your view.
 
at the time of the son of god jesus being on the earth there was more than 12 apostles one most have missed is john the baptist when reading what christ said about him what did you go out to see a prophet, i tell you more than a prophet. in the greek it says (apostello) apostle.plus paul apollos etc were alive i was lead through the n.t.and was shown many apostles
 
After Paul's dramatic conversion, he spent fourteen years in Damascus being taught by the Holy Spirit. Paul explained part of this to the church at Ephesus:

"I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles. If indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery - as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ; which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets." (Ephesians 3:3-5).​

From this Scripture, we can see that God often reveals the "big picture" revelations to His apostles. In Paul's generation it was the mystery of the Gentiles being included in God's plan of the ages. Paul's generation saw the transition between the Age of Law into the Age of Grace.

When Jesus ascended back into heaven after His resurrection, the Scriptures say that he "gave gifts unto men" and part of those gifts include the gift of apostles. Ephesians 4:11 names the five different equipping gifts as: 1) apostles, 2) prophets, 3) evangelists, 4) pastors, and 5) teachers.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (New International Version)
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.​

Scripture certainly records other apostles besides the original twelve. A few biblical apostles other than the first twelve include: Paul, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junias (who was most likely a woman) just to name a few (Acts 14:14, Romans 16:7). <<---- feel free to click the link, it saves us the copy-pasta operation.

Apostles are the foundation, and not the top floor:

"having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." Ephesians 2:20-22. <<---- feel free to click the link, it saves us the copy-pasta operation.​

Paul was able to say that to SOME he was an apostle but to others he was not (see: 1 Corinthians 9:2). His authority in Christ to the Corinthians was based on the relationship he had with them. He founded them. Became a part of their foundation. Yet, this humble man who ministered to hearts also rightly admonished, 'Follow me --> as I follow Christ' (paraphrased).

Apostle simply means "sent one". Jesus is the first. He personally trained many disciples and chose 12 to become Apostles of the Lamb. We see a place of honor set aside for these men in the Revelation of Jesus to the apostle, John given on the isle of Patmos. Those who look may clearly see that there are other gifts that have been given to the church. None of these shall pass away until their purpose (reaching the unity in the faith; having the mind of Christ; attaining to the whole measure) has come about.

That's the WHY! Let's not get all stumbled on the "Who" of it. Suffice it to say there is a difference between a man who runs for public office (and must campaign for votes, must become popular, must be famous) and one who is appointed by God. There? The requirement does not include fame, popularity, or votes. IN point of fact, it's quite the opposite.

Consider the difference. Further, and now we enter my own personal speculation (and I mark it as such) my thought is that even if there was a suspension in the gift for a time (and I don't know if there was or not) this does not demand that the scripture is false when it states, "Until we all..." There are none that may convince me different than what both the Spirit and the Word declare.

~Sparrow
 
Well, this thread went off topic pretty fast. I claimed, and some others have agreed, that the purpose of God giving the various ministries was so that those who had those ministries could "equip the saints for works of service" and that it is then the job of every Christian to build up the body of Christ by doing those works of service. Some Bibles translate Eph. 4:12 in a way that doesn't support that interpretation. Does anyone here disagree with my interpretation on this or are we all in agreement?

The TOG​
 
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