Where is the justice?????????

[brakelite2]

Hi brakelite. You quoted John 3:16 a number of times.

Those who do not believe in Christ, are said "to perish." What do you think that means?

I accept Strong's definition, that is destroy. This for me agrees with other words used in scripture when referring to the fate of the wicked. Malachi 4:1 is a good example. There is nothing remaining after being burnt up. This is only natural and in harmony with normal fire. No fuel remaining, the fire goes out. It cannot be put out by anyones effort. To believe God intentionally keeps the fire going eternally in order to inflict pain to my mind is a gross insult to the character and nature of God.

MY COMMENTS: It seems that this verse could be taken literally, not consider it a metaphor.
And, if so, then the wicked will be miracuously transformed to stubble to be burned up.

Yet, if that is their end...they exist no more...who are the vast number that will be resurrected to be judged at the great white throne (Rev. 20:11=15)?

The saints who have died in Christ are raised at the second coming to be with the Lord forever.
The wicked remain in their graves until the end of the 1000 years. They are judged, and cast into the lake of fire where they are destroyed.
Judgement must always precede execution of sentence.

 

[francisdesales]

The saints who have died in Christ are raised at the second coming to be with the Lord forever.

Bodily raised. Their spirits are already with Christ, since NOTHING can separate the saints from Christ.

The wicked remain in their graves until the end of the 1000 years. They are judged, and cast into the lake of fire where they are destroyed.

One thousand years refers to the period of time from the Resurrection of Christ to His Second Coming. Millenialism is based on Jewish fables.

Judgement must always precede execution of sentence.

Is anyone saying people will be punished without being judged?

Regards

 

[BobRyan]

There is a middle-of-the-road position in the Bible.




Bob

: The truth : how often is Biblical truth in 'the middle of the road'. There are always extremes going both ways to suit those of almost any persuasion. Your simple clear explanation was well put.

Thank you.

The Matt 10:28 text about God being the one who will "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" is interesting because the Bible also tells us that God "destroyed" Sodom and Gomorrah "by reducing them to ashes" and by using "eternal fire".

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The saints who have died in Christ are raised at the second coming to be with the Lord forever.
The wicked remain in their graves until the end of the 1000 years. They are judged, and cast into the lake of fire where they are destroyed.
Judgement must always precede execution of sentence.

Good point.

Bob

 

[dadof10]

The Matt 10:28 text about God being the one who will "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" is interesting because the Bible also tells us that God "destroyed" Sodom and Gomorrah "by reducing them to ashes" and by using "eternal fire".

As I said in an earlier post, "destroy" has more than one definition. In fact, Thayers defines the word in Mt. 10:28 as "metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell", not total annihilation.

Do you think this is plausable, or at least possible?

 

[BobRyan]

It is "possible" that the astronauts did not go to the moon even though we saw them do it on TV -- but the idea that it was all a hoax -- though remotely possible it is NOT at all likely.

"Metaph" in Matt 10:28 is the word translated "kill" where we are told NOT to fear those who "KILL the body" but have no power over the soul.

Hint: That means that in the mistake you just made in your argument about "kill" and "metaph" You have just argued that when the saints are murdered by evil men in this life -- those saints are in fact sent to suffer eternal torment.

Note that in Matt 10 when Christ contrasts the first death with the second death the same concept of Kill and “Destroy†that he applied in the real world (first death) really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning regarding the 2nd death. .(In Matt 25:41 we are told that the everlasting fire of the 2nd death is “prepared for the devil and his angels†– and we see that very thing happening in Rev 20 where the devil is cast alive into eternal fire).

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 10:28 “destroy both BODY AND SOUL†in fiery hell –

Matt 10:28 Apollumi – “Destroy “

http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible ... =10&ncc=10


Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death. Do not fear what wicked men plan to do regarding the first death – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body†since in those things they are not able to “kill†the soul.

This is a good place to stop and admit what happens TO THE BODY in this FIRST death case of “kill body but NOT soulâ€Â. In this case the body is BOTH killed AND destroyed to the point of reducing to DUST. Christ argues that what is ONLY done to the BODY in the first death – is done to BOTH body AND SOUL in the second death!

Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul†IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing†– rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hellâ€Â

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

They are “destroyed†– reduced to ashes by that ââ“eternal fire†from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED†in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed†the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Bob

 

[Free]

The saints who have died in Christ are raised at the second coming to be with the Lord forever.
The wicked remain in their graves until the end of the 1000 years. They are judged, and cast into the lake of fire where they are destroyed.
Judgement must always precede execution of sentence.

Luk 12:40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Luk 12:41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

So, if the dead are raised, judged, and cast into the lake of fire where they are destroyed, that is, they cease to exist, how can the above be true?

Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul†IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing†– rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hellâ€Â

Not "will", "can". Big difference.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

And you are still avoiding the obvious: man cannot kill the soul--so what happens to the soul if/when man kills the body?

 

[BobRyan]

In John 11 Christ said "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM". Later when questioned about this Jesus said plainly "Lazarus is dead". When the wicked kill the body of the saints -- they do not kill the soul. But when God casts the wicked into literal fiery hell he destroys BOTH "Body AND soul" not just "body".

Bob

 

[Free]

But when God casts the wicked into literal fiery hell he destroys BOTH "Body AND soul" not just "body".

Based on what verse or passage?

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is not an argument of the form "Fear Him who if he so chose to do such a silly thing could easily blow up the universe with a single sneeze" - rather it appeals to the very real future judgment -- the very real act of God in creating that fiery hell identified in Matt 10 and the very real act of God who really casts the wicked into it -- as we see in Rev 20 "they are cast alive into the lake of fire... the 2nd death".

Nothing imaginary or pretended about this.

The contrast drawn is that man has power to kill the body but is unnable to kill the soul.

By contrast God is able to not only kill but DESTROY BOTH in fiery hell.

And as pointed out - God sets up Sodom and Gomorrah as the example of such destruction by the means of eternal fire.

Bob

 

[Free]

The contrast drawn is that man has power to kill the body but is unnable to kill the soul.

By contrast God is able to not only kill but DESTROY BOTH in fiery hell.

Yes, which is what I pointed out. But as I showed, the Bible states "can" or "is able to", not "will".

And as pointed out - God sets up Sodom and Gomorrah as the example of such destruction by the means of eternal fire.

And yet, in that very passage Sodom and Gomorrah yet face judgement:

Mat 10:15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

 

[MarkT]

Hi. The verses you quoted are interesting for 2 reasons.
The first, 'eternal fire'. In the book of Jude we read of the 'eternal fire' that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Clearly, not only is the fire no longer burning, but those 2 cities aren't either. Therefore, the word 'eternal' is conditional on there being fuel to keep it going. It cannot be put out by anyone, but like all fire will go out of it's own accord when there is no further fuel to burn. Once the cities were destroyed, the fire ceased.
The same with the lake of fire that destroys the wicked. Once all are destroyed, the fire will go out. It has to. The fire is on the earth, and Malachi tells us that we will treading upon the ashes of those that perished.

No. You're not reading what it says. Sodom and Gomorrah are undergoing a punishment of eternal fire, presently, just as the angels who did not keep their position but left their proper dwelling are being kept in eternal chains, presently, until the day of judgment.

 

[MarkT]

There is a middle-of-the-road position in the Bible.

Matt 10:28 God is the one that "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

IN Rev 14:10 the ENTIRE event of the torment of the wicked takes place IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and in the presence of His Holy Angels.

The smoke of their torment will go up for ever and ever, and they won't have any rest day or night. Rev. 14:10 is specifically talking about the worshippers of the beast and its image; the ones who have the mark of the beast on their foreheads. How can the smoke of their torment go up for ever and ever if they are dead? The soul is the thing that is tormented. And how can it say, 'they have no rest day or night' in the same sense ie. forever, if they die?

Mark 9:48 tells us their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

And Jesus said, 'there they will weep and gnash their teeth.' How can they weep and gnash their teeth unless they have eyes and teeth?

Obviously the destruction of the body and the soul is everlasting.

So we know that TORMENT and suffering does await the wicked in the 2nd death.

We know that the complete event takes place IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and of his holy angels.

No. That would be the beginning of their torment; when they are judged.

We know that it ends with "BOTH body and soul" destroyed in fiery hell.

So the torment of the wicked is real -- but results eventually in both body and soul being destroyed.

The destruction never ends.

In Luke 12:45-55 Christ said that the one who KNOWS his master's will and does deeds worthy of punishment (sins and goes to hell) -- receives many lashes but he who did NOT KNOW -- yet also did deeds worthy of punishment - receives few.

That only works if the price is not "infinite" in both cases.

You're combining two different things and trying to make them say one thing, or be about one thing. Rev. 14 is specifically talking about those who have the mark of the beast, while Luke 12 is talking about the servants of God.

 

[dadof10]

It is "possible" that the astronauts did not go to the moon even though we saw them do it on TV -- but the idea that it was all a hoax -- though remotely possible it is NOT at all likely.

I asked if it was possible to use the definition "metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell" for the word "destroy" in context, not if a conspiracy is possible. C'mon, Bob.

I'll give you an example. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to define the word "eternal" as having an end sometime in the future. That's not what the word means. So if you were to ask me if it is possible for "eternal punishment" or "eternal life" to end, I would have to say: "No, if Jesus meant that the punishment ever ended, He would have used another word, not the word 'eternal'".

"Metaph" in Matt 10:28 is the word translated "kill" where we are told NOT to fear those who "KILL the body" but have no power over the soul.

Hint: That means that in the mistake you just made in your argument about "kill" and "metaph" You have just argued that when the saints are murdered by evil men in this life -- those saints are in fact sent to suffer eternal torment.

I do make a lot of mistakes, but this isn't one of them. According to Thayers Lexicon, on blueletterbible.com, one of the definitions possible for the word "Apollumi" is "metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell", just as I posted. In fact, the link you posted above gives this same definition. Letter "e" here:
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/view.cgi?number=622

I like to use blueletterbible.com because it gives a lot (all?) the footnotes from the actual books. The only problem is, you can't cut and paste the notes. You have to go to the link below to get there, then click on "click here for rest of entry" and go down 15 rows. You'll find this entry:

"metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell: Mt.x.28 ; Jas.iv.12."

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G622&t=kjv

So, I'll ask again. Do you think, in light of the above evidence, that it's probable that the word "destroy" in Mt. 10 could, as it says in Strongs, be defined as "metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell"? I'll wait to comment until after you've digested all this.

 

[brakelite2]

I am sorry but I tire of rekindling the same old arguments and counter arguments over the meaning of words using references of one description and another. Commentaries and dictionaries all bear the stamp and bias of the those who compile them, and those who choose to use such use only those which reflect their own bias. Even the KJV translaters had their own bias in various places that have given rise to confusion over these very matters that we are discussing here. Added to that is the fact that all the points have been raised many times over, and it seems to me that we all have our entrenched positions and the only change in stance for any of us will come by the moving of the Holy Spirit on our hearts rather than the correct understanding of the Greek or Hebrew, whatever that understanding is.
That is why I approached the whole matter in the way I did. An appeal to understanding the nature of God. It is not an appeal to our intellectual understanding of various translations or to the original language, but rather an appeal to our knowledge and understanding of Him Who resided in our own hearts.It is an appeal to acknowledge what the Bible actually says about Him, as a God; His personality, His character, His nature.
With that in mind, I would repeat the very questions posed in my OP and which no-one has attempted to answer.
The doctrine of eternal torment contradicts and attacks front on the very nature and character of God.
The cross proves that God is LOVE, but where has love gone when eternal pain is deliberately inflicted and not alleviated?
The cross proves that God is MERCIFUL, but where has mercy gone if there is no satisfaction in the agony of others?
The cross proves that God is HOLY, but where has holiness gone when sin and evil are forever preserved?
The cross proves that God is JUST, but where has justice gone when for a short lifetime of sin the punishment is eternal torment?
Jesus suffered death for the sins of many, where is the justice in us suffering eternally the fires of hell for the sins of one?

You who claim to know God as your personal Savior. If you claim that He is the kind of God who is a greater torturer than any and all of the worst that Satan has encouraged man to be, I would say unequivocally that you do not know your God well enough.

 

[MarkT]

It's you who doesn't understand. The hell of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. I repeat - for the devil and his angels! You don't understand the law and you don't know the Word of God. There are two paths; one is narrow that leads to life, the other is wide that leads to destruction. After telling you, 'don't take that path', and you take it, how can you accuse God of being unjust? If I tell you, 'don't step off that cliff', and you do, it isn't I who punish you. You punish yourself. Go back to the story of Adam and Eve. God told them not to eat or they would die. Was God being unjust? Didn't he tell them they would die? Why do you grieve the Holy Spirit? Don't you know that if you lead people astray, they will die, and you will die even worse! Don't take that path! Turn around!

 

[Gabe]

I am sorry but I tire of rekindling the same old arguments and counter arguments over the meaning of words using references of one description and another. Commentaries and dictionaries all bear the stamp and bias of the those who compile them, and those who choose to use such use only those which reflect their own bias. Even the KJV translaters had their own bias in various places that have given rise to confusion over these very matters that we are discussing here. Added to that is the fact that all the points have been raised many times over, and it seems to me that we all have our entrenched positions and the only change in stance for any of us will come by the moving of the Holy Spirit on our hearts rather than the correct understanding of the Greek or Hebrew, whatever that understanding is.
That is why I approached the whole matter in the way I did. An appeal to understanding the nature of God. It is not an appeal to our intellectual understanding of various translations or to the original language, but rather an appeal to our knowledge and understanding of Him Who resided in our own hearts.It is an appeal to acknowledge what the Bible actually says about Him, as a God; His personality, His character, His nature.
With that in mind, I would repeat the very questions posed in my OP and which no-one has attempted to answer.
The doctrine of eternal torment contradicts and attacks front on the very nature and character of God.
The cross proves that God is LOVE, but where has love gone when eternal pain is deliberately inflicted and not alleviated?
The cross proves that God is MERCIFUL, but where has mercy gone if there is no satisfaction in the agony of others?
The cross proves that God is HOLY, but where has holiness gone when sin and evil are forever preserved?
The cross proves that God is JUST, but where has justice gone when for a short lifetime of sin the punishment is eternal torment?
Jesus suffered death for the sins of many, where is the justice in us suffering eternally the fires of hell for the sins of one?

You who claim to know God as your personal Savior. If you claim that He is the kind of God who is a greater torturer than any and all of the worst that Satan has encouraged man to be, I would say unequivocally that you do not know your God well enough.

What loving God would allow Pedophiles, Murderers and Rapists to LIVE A SINFUL LIFE WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE?

The idea that: someone who believes that God does not exist and so is free to live a sinful life without fear, finds in the end that he was right about the non-existance of an afterlife for himself: is TWISTED!

The idea of eternal punishment may seem extreme to some, but it is in no way as extreme as allowing sinners to live life how they please without punishment. If this was true, we all would have done better not to find Christ because the thought of 'non-existence' after death seems quite appealing to me.

PS- It is a short lifetime for the sinner but not for the man women or child who has been sinned.

 

[dadof10]

I am sorry but I tire of rekindling the same old arguments and counter arguments over the meaning of words using references of one description and another. Commentaries and dictionaries all bear the stamp and bias of the those who compile them, and those who choose to use such use only those which reflect their own bias.

You're kidding, right? When Bick asked you about how you would define the word "perish", here is your response: "I accept Strong's definition, that is destroy. This for me agrees with other words used in scripture when referring to the fate of the wicked. Malachi 4:1 is a good example."

the word is "apollumi" and one of the valid definitions ACCORDING TO STRONGS is "metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell", as I said above to Bob.

Why will you accept Strongs definition when it bolsters your case, then come off as "above all that" when you claim to "tire" of all that silly defining and referencing, then claim "bias!" when you are shown to be in error?

I would be happy to discuss the un-addressed points you mention in your last post, if I can do them without putting too much "Catholicism" in them and getting the thread shut down. Let me know if you want to continue and I'll see if I can do it.

 

[dadof10]

There are two paths; one is narrow that leads to life, the other is wide that leads to destruction. After telling you, 'don't take that path', and you take it, how can you accuse God of being unjust? If I tell you, 'don't step off that cliff', and you do, it isn't I who punish you. You punish yourself.

Excellent point, Mark. It's not God Who sends us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell by the choices we make here on earth. I read somewhere (CS Lewis, I think) that for the damned, to be in the Presence of God is even more painful than Hell, so because of the state of their souls at death, they "choose" to be as far away as possible. For them, to be in Heaven would even be more hellish that Hell actually is.

 

[brakelite2]

It's you who doesn't understand. The hell of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. I repeat - for the devil and his angels! You don't understand the law and you don't know the Word of God.

I have not at any time questioned the fact that there will indeed be fire from God that destroys the devil and his angels. Note: destroy!

There are two paths; one is narrow that leads to life, the other is wide that leads to destruction.

You say so here yourself. Destruction!!! How clearer can it get? Yet the church by and large claims, no, not destruction, but eternal life!!!!! For the wicked???? Eternal life for the wicked? We get eternal life as a reward for our faith in Jesus. It is our hope and the essence of all the promises of God. The Bible is replete with references to this most wonderful of gifts. Yet nowhere, in not one single instance, is there any reference, intimated or boldly stated that eternal life is given also to the wicked. As some-one else so succinctly states, Malachi says it best. The wicked are destroyed!
Oh, and before you claim that we are naturally immortal my Bible categorically states that only God is immortal.

After telling you, 'don't take that path', and you take it, how can you accuse God of being unjust?

Give me just one quote where I claimed God is unjust. It is you who is unjust by claiming that eternal torment is a just punishment for a short lifetime of sin. God is not unjust. That is why He will not torment anyone for eternity.

If I tell you, 'don't step off that cliff', and you do, it isn't I who punish you. You punish yourself. Go back to the story of Adam and Eve. God told them not to eat or they would die. Was God being unjust? Didn't he tell them they would die? Why do you grieve the Holy Spirit? Don't you know that if you lead people astray, they will die, and you will die even worse! Don't take that path! Turn around!

There you go again, supporting my very argument. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die! Satan said to A & E "Thou shalt not surely die". And 95% of preachers and pastors and evangelists have from the Christian pulpit repeated Satan's lie by claiming that the wicked have eternal life. The SOUL that sinneth it shall die"
I am not advocating or suggesting that the wicked go unpunished. Far from it. The second death is a fearful event. And facing God in a state of guilt before being sentenced to that death will be a time of the deepest anguish and suffering. And when they are thrown into the lake of fire, some will be destroyed quickly, some not so, depending on the severity of the life lived. But destroyed they will be. All of them.
And all of you are choosing to ignore my questions that impinge on the character of God. If you can equate eternal torment with God's character of love, mercy, grace, justice etc then the God you worship is not the God of the Bible. I repeat, why is it that we rightly condemn man for torture, but claim when God does it it is righteous?