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Where to Draw the Line?

jasoncran said:
I used the argument for being drunk. pot likely wasn't around then in the levant region or in the Greco roman world. you asked for sober. right sober.

if being drunk is a sin, then why is the word sober used in the nt? its context mentions alcohol, right. if alcohol causes by overusage a state of stupor and it does then its a sin. I mention this about pot. have you used it once? I haven't but I have watched my brother get high on it, wife and others. all were regular users. they went from a sober state to laughing. my brother was of this type. my wife uses it and has done creative things with it while high. I have her argue with me and hit it and go from sheer rage to almost glee and barely mad at me in seconds. so that isn't enough?it seems to be that changes the mental state. caffeine doesnt do that. as much as I drink(2 gals of coke a day) that never does that for me.

if being drunk is a sin. what does the first hit of pot do? its the same with any drug the first time is a doozy but tolerance is built and it takes more and more.
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Sir Winston Churchill was told by a lady Member of Parliament: 'You are drunk!'

He replied: 'Madam, you are ugly. Tomorrow I shall be sober.'
 
tandemcpl said:
I didn’t want to highjack another thread so I thought I would post this question here.

Legalism and Christian freedom came up in a different thread along with where to draw a line between the two.

My point of view is that if we take too many “Liberties” and let too much of the world into the Church, then what does the church have to offer. If we become just like those of the world, wouldn’t that diminish our light.

The word of God says, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” 2 Cor. 5:17, ESV

I don’t think it is “Legalism” to accept Paul at his word and let Jesus change us instead of us trying to change the church to what we want.

Robert Raines, in his book titled New Life in the Church, said the following:

"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture.

The church is usually content to grow in physical nature and in favor with its immediate environment.

The Church becomes the mouthpiece of the people instead of the voice of God. The church, which is meant to be at tension with the customs and traditions of every culture, changes her protective coloring like a chameleon to suit the environment she is in.

And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church.

The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Be blessed.


Toby
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So Toby, we have talked about music, alcohol, marijuana..
Do you have thoughts of other ways in which the church is following the culture of the world?
What are some of the things you see? I think if I moved to a bigger town I would probably suffer culture shock when it came to the church. Our churches in this town are pretty traditional and teach it.
 
Isa_26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Col_2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

1Pe_1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;


Just as opiates have a MEDICAL place so could pot. These things are so over used in the church and world... How can we keep our minds on Him while stoned?
 
reba said:
Isa_26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Col_2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

1Pe_1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;


Just as opiates have a MEDICAL place so could pot. These things are so over used in the church and world... How can we keep our minds on Him while stoned?
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Great verses there!

Good to get back to Scripture.

Blessings.
 
I will agree that as Christians we are afforded certain freedoms as outlined in Romans 14. However, these freedoms come with the prohibition of obedience. One needs only to look to God’s first couple to see how this works.

Adam and Eve were given the freedom to enjoy the Garden of Eden, but that freedom came with a prohibition; “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen 2:16-17, ESV). We all know how that turned out.

Freedom calls for expressions of our gratitude to God’s graciousness. Prohibition calls for acts of obedience. Obedience to God’s command is the most appropriate way to acknowledge God’s sovereignty as our creator.

I think it is a mistake for Christians to see how close they can come to the line of sin without crossing it, and when they get to that line, they are still not comfortable with where they are at so they start pushing the line to where it will work for them, where they can be comfortable.
The apostle Paul knew all this was coming and gave these instructions to Timothy:

“I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2 Tim. 4:1-5, ESV)
I don’t profess to know where to draw the line, and I don’t judge those that set their line at a different place than I do. However, I do use the following words from Paul to help me set my line.

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Phil. 4:8-9, ESV)

For me, this means that alcohol, cigarettes, pornography, drugs (including pot), cursing, and tattoos are on the wrong side of the line.

Be blessed.

Toby
 
tandemcpl said:
I will agree that as Christians we are afforded certain freedoms as outlined in Romans 14. However, these freedoms come with the prohibition of obedience. One needs only to look to God’s first couple to see how this works.

Adam and Eve were given the freedom to enjoy the Garden of Eden, but that freedom came with a prohibition; “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen 2:16-17, ESV). We all know how that turned out.

Freedom calls for expressions of our gratitude to God’s graciousness. Prohibition calls for acts of obedience. Obedience to God’s command is the most appropriate way to acknowledge God’s sovereignty as our creator.

I think it is a mistake for Christians to see how close they can come to the line of sin without crossing it, and when they get to that line, they are still not comfortable with where they are at so they start pushing the line to where it will work for them, where they can be comfortable.
The apostle Paul knew all this was coming and gave these instructions to Timothy:

“I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2 Tim. 4:1-5, ESV)
I don’t profess to know where to draw the line, and I don’t judge those that set their line at a different place than I do. However, I do use the following words from Paul to help me set my line.

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Phil. 4:8-9, ESV)

For me, this means that alcohol, cigarettes, pornography, drugs (including pot), cursing, and tattoos are on the wrong side of the line.

Be blessed.

Toby
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tandemcpl:

Some really great thoughts there; and helpful Scripture verses.

Yes, I can see that you want to avoid "alcohol, cigarettes, pornography, drugs (including pot), cursing" . A faith based tattoo design might well be regarded by some people as not being in the same category. Like you say, everyone draws the line individually.

Philippians 4:8 is one of my favorite verses.

Blessings.
 
Greetings Obadiah! I wish I had a "like your Avatar" button.

Smiley16_zps577e4b17.png
Last Saturday, you wrote:

Obadiah said:
To be honest I've always found these scriptures elusive and always fell back on the concept of using it being illegal, therefore a sin. But I live in Washington State where that stance went down the drain when they legalized pot. I find I am having a hard time finding any other rational argument that is not hypocritical.
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I too live in Washington state and have followed the changes to our laws with quite some interest. Last Spring, I was in a Business Class and one of the assignments was that we create a Business Model and Plan as a learning tool. Guess who stood up and started a 'New Company'? It was called "RedEye 502 Business Incubation". No, I did not advocate use. My model supported an entirely different concept - that of business incubation. If the site allows I'll upload a .PDF of the Business Plan. But that's too far off topic.

The reason that I'm writing here is in response to your dilemma. There is no need to feel hypocritical (hypo = overly) about the position that if it is against the law it's sin. God is the final authority. State authority? Subject to God. If we as a State do well and are God-fearing? Good. If not? Then our own conscience is higher. If we, as a country, do well? Then we have Federal Law to go by. This is a higher authority. Of course there are constitutional issues involved but we need not even consider them. The principle of going by our own good conscience, of keeping our heart submitted and yielded to the Highest Authority is Scriptural.

Yes, man makes laws and yes they may be, should be, considered. As far as marijuana goes? The path that I took was to avoid even the appearance of evil while my business plan was created. That doesn't mean that others won't wag their tongues but it's only because of a misunderstanding that does not involve me... We can only do so much. By the way; I'm against recreational use but I'm only one vote. That's okay by me too. I think it's illegal for me to even try to buy votes, right?


If you do download and read the .PDF file be sure to place extreme emphasis on the words:
RedEye 502™ will adhere to the law and the regulations for our industry while demonstrating and providing a proven path toward success.
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The concept involves creating a fictional business to share the common administrative tasks. Access to shared payroll services, access to shared secretarial services, to shared neworking, printing, shared space for retail outlets. No access to individual inventories. That's not our business. Incubation (service to others) was the idea. I just wanted to put an idea forward that would let me make $$ without having to sell. Part of me thinks it's a good idea still.

Cordially,
SparHawke
 
My thing is: if phamaceutical companies are ripping so many people off with their huge profits, can legal research trials into marijuana assist the consumer and patient in the long run, cost wise, for certain meds?
 
Greetings farouk! Sounds like a slippery slope to me... Pray for hind's feet if you go there, right?
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Greetings farouk! Sounds like a slippery slope to me... Pray for hind's feet if you go there, right?
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The key is if it's safe, legal and properly researched: if all these criteria are met. Cannabis resin is even less addictive than nicotine.

I don't see why people's hesitations should be used by huge corporations to rip the public off further with the massive profits they make. Some meds in Canada and Mexico cost only 1/20 of what they cost in the US.

Blessings.
 
Was it this thread where I posted about "legalities"? I'll have to look. It's gonna take more than a single State or two to be heard by the US Supreme Court. Legalized marijuana is way down the road. Frankly, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.
 
I really wish this was not even consider a topic in Christian circles... The church will not stand against much of anything...Not guts no power.... I see the inroad, slowly the evil creeps in like the frog in the pot......some things are right and others wrong. Scripture tell us over and over to be sober

He died so we can have ....2Ti_1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1Co_8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak.

Gal_5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1Co_6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
 
reba said:
I really wish this was not even consider a topic in Christian circles... The church will not stand against much of anything...Not guts no power.... I see the inroad, slowly the evil creeps in like the frog in the pot......some things are right and others wrong. Scripture tell us over and over to be sober

He died so we can have ....2Ti_1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1Co_8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak.

Gal_5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1Co_6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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I so agree with you, reba : rarely will our churches take a proper stance on leading an upright and Christian life. I'm not talking a Puritanical-style life... I'm talking about a true Christian life where morals are taught and enforced.

But no, can't teach morals ... that might offend someone.
 
Edward, bless your heart!

I don't know of many who would "come out of the closet" regarding past indiscretions. I do see your point and in fact live in the other State that has passed a referendum to 'legalize' recreational use. As a matter of fact, this was the subject that I chose for my Business Plan example in my final quarter at school this Spring.

But (and this is a big but) I walked a very fine line. Because there are Federal prohibitions that have not been lifted my choice was made more difficult. The way I got around it was by creating a Business Plan based on the Business Incubator Model. My focus remained on helping others but this position allowed me to be friendly to all -AND- not let my foot stray from the path even one bit.

The Scripture for this? Hmmmm... it's more of a concept. Shepherds have such close relationships with their sheep (in the East) that they are able to walk them through a field that does not belong to them. Of course, shepherds are liable for any damages --including sheep damage-- to the trail and/or the adjacent fields. The sheep trust their shepherd and know that they will be fed and cared for. No gleaning allowed.

It's a "God is my all sufficiency" kind of thing and frankly? One that I'm still striving to learn well. You're prayers for me, Sir, are not only appreciated they are needed. The children of the darkness (not you, brother) are more shrewd in these matters. Do you remember when President hopeful Jimmy Carter was interviewed in Playboy Magazine? I do.

Cordially,
Sparrow


P. S. ---> Here's a link to a whole chapter found in the book (no longer in publication),
Manners and Customs of Bible Lands (by Fred H. Wight)

Chapter 18 ----> Click to read: Shepherd Life; The Care of Sheep and Goats ........ 49.35 kb

Thought Bubble: . o O (If I could beg everyone to read this I would)​
 
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