Which denomination?

[Gary]

Brains surgeries are backing up........

I hate that when that happens.

.

 

[JLB]

Which denomination do you think nails it the closest in regard to being a Biblically correct meeting of the body of Christ? Why do you think that? Give examples. Connect them to scripture if possible.

The Denomination that Jesus started for us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do they need degrees?

By itself a degree doesn't mean too much. It's just that a pastor with a degree is familiar with the Bible. Lay people tend to not be fully aware of all that's in the Bible, and haven't been forced to contemplate scripture like one would be in a school assignment. Which I think is a valuable experience, but one that few of us can make ourselves do on our own. Also, degree'd pastors and leaders are taught the practicalities of preparing material, public speaking, and when writing, good grammar and spelling (thank God for spell check, lol).

Also, I need to add: Though I won't argue that Paul talks about the proof of the pudding being in a demonstration of power, not the eloquence of words, I think it important in this time that a leader of a church have the credentials to go along with his authority and power to lead. Resistance is bound to come, and a set of credentials will help defend oneself against the problems of naysayers that will come up.

I would think people who have been mentored and discipled would be adequate, just as the early apostles. I don't think a degree is required or necessary although there is nothing wrong with them.

The key being 'mentored and disciplined'. Many truly gifted and knowledgeable lay people simply have not been. That doesn't mean they are not valuable and needed in the body of Christ. It simply means they may not be adequately equipped for leadership within the body.

Just tossing this out but perhaps the Lord is calling you to start a group.

Dunno.
Maybe not in a leadership role, but perhaps in a supportive role.
If I met a pastor/ leader in my community that had the vision you and I have I would help him in fulfilling that vision. If all things lined up I'd be behind him and the effort 100%.

I can tell you would make a great teacher and leader. You seem to be quit knowledgeable with scripture.

Well, thank you, that's very kind.
To illustrate the points I'm making here, I started out under some great teaching and fellowship and experiences that have proven to be very valuable academically and practically, and which I'm confident is showing up somewhere in my interactions with my brothers and sisters.

Maybe this desire is from the Lord?

Just a thought.

I have carried this desire around for many years. If feels like God, no question about it.
Where my place in it all is still kind of unknown to me. Right now I see myself as another working Joe who comes to 'church' with the rest of the bunch and can participate in a useful and edifying way according to the gifts God has graced me with. But in leadership? Not sure. Presently there is a condition in my life that disqualifies me for that.

How 'bout you?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Denomination that Jesus started for us.

Church of Christ?

 

[Abigail123]

By itself a degree doesn't mean too much. It's just that a pastor with a degree is familiar with the Bible. Lay people tend to not be fully aware of all that's in the Bible, and haven't been forced to contemplate scripture like one would be in a school assignment. Which I think is a valuable experience, but one that few of us can make ourselves do on our own. Also, degree'd pastors and leaders are taught the practicalities of preparing material, public speaking, and when writing, good grammar and spelling (thank God for spell check, lol).

Also, I need to add: Though I won't argue that Paul talks about the proof of the pudding being in a demonstration of power, not the eloquence of words, I think it important in this time that a leader of a church have the credentials to go along with his authority and power to lead. Resistance is bound to come, and a set of credentials will help defend oneself against the problems of naysayers that will come up.



The key being 'mentored and disciplined'. Many truly gifted and knowledgeable lay people simply have not been. That doesn't mean they are not valuable and needed in the body of Christ. It simply means they may not be adequately equipped for leadership within the body.


Dunno.
Maybe not in a leadership role, but perhaps in a supportive role.
If I met a pastor/ leader in my community that had the vision you and I have I would help him in fulfilling that vision. If all things lined up I'd be behind him and the effort 100%.


Well, thank you, that's very kind.
To illustrate the points I'm making here, I started out under some great teaching and fellowship and experiences that have proven to be very valuable academically and practically, and which I'm confident is showing up somewhere in my interactions with my brothers and sisters.



I have carried this desire around for many years. If feels like God, no question about it.
Where my place in it all is still kind of unknown to me. Right now I see myself as another working Joe who comes to 'church' with the rest of the bunch and can participate in a useful and edifying way according to the gifts God has graced me with. But in leadership? Not sure. Presently there is a condition in my life that disqualifies me for that.

How 'bout you?

I am convinced if someone is called by God to teach, lead, pastor, etc He will equip them to perform, with or without a degree. Not being necessary in the Kingdom of God, a degree in itself is advantageous and desirable in today's society.

We need more training of disciples within the church and it most definitely doesn't require a degree for this. It requires mature spiritual influence on our youth so they can grow up in the Lord and learn how to be a disciple by the example of others. Our youth need strong godly men and women in their lives.

I would disagree a degree is required for all leadership, again God equips the called.

I think you'd be a great leader, all it takes is for people to follow you.

I have been in leadership many times, from being a leader of the children's leadership group and director, to a preschool program manager, various leadership teams for transitional housing and fund raising roles, all within the church and my degree has nothing to do with any of it. LOL

I am sort of old school, and believe the women should play a more traditional role, while men's roles should be the pastoral and teaching of the whole congregations. Anyway, I'm off topic again.

My desire is to be in fellowship with other believers, worshipping and serving the Lord together! Teaching the lost and bringing them into the Kingdom!

 

[ezra]

By itself a degree doesn't mean too much. It's just that a pastor with a degree is familiar with the Bible. Lay people tend to not be fully aware of all that's in the Bible, and haven't been forced to contemplate scripture like one would be in a school assignment. Which I think is a valuable experience, but one that few of us can make ourselves do on our own. Also, degree'd pastors and leaders are taught the practicalities of preparing material, public speaking, and when writing, good grammar and spelling (thank God for spell check, lol).

Also, I need to add: Though I won't argue that Paul talks about the proof of the pudding being in a demonstration of power, not the eloquence of words, I think it important in this time that a leader of a church have the credentials to go along with his authority and power to lead. Resistance is bound to come, and a set of credentials will help defend oneself against the problems of naysayers that will come up.



The key being 'mentored and disciplined'. Many truly gifted and knowledgeable lay people simply have not been. That doesn't mean they are not valuable and needed in the body of Christ. It simply means they may not be adequately equipped for leadership within the body.


Dunno.
Maybe not in a leadership role, but perhaps in a supportive role.
If I met a pastor/ leader in my community that had the vision you and I have I would help him in fulfilling that vision. If all things lined up I'd be behind him and the effort 100%.


Well, thank you, that's very kind.
To illustrate the points I'm making here, I started out under some great teaching and fellowship and experiences that have proven to be very valuable academically and practically, and which I'm confident is showing up somewhere in my interactions with my brothers and sisters.



I have carried this desire around for many years. If feels like God, no question about it.
Where my place in it all is still kind of unknown to me. Right now I see myself as another working Joe who comes to 'church' with the rest of the bunch and can participate in a useful and edifying way according to the gifts God has graced me with. But in leadership? Not sure. Presently there is a condition in my life that disqualifies me for that.

How 'bout you?

you dont need a degree degrees are good for education for personnel edification other than that i can show you plenty of men of God . that only has a H.S education . study the word inside and out . led of the spirit is what it takes .today we have traded anointing for degrees.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

today we have traded anointing for degrees.

Indeed. And this is what today's denominations are all about. The issue is one of authority. Who do you look to, for the authority to do the things you do? Because it is to that authority, to which you will render...

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. - 2 Cor. 3:1-3

"Worship" is a service, not a ritual. Those who "attend church" and imitate Old Testament worship patterns generally neglect the New Testament commands to exhort one another daily (Heb. 3:13; 10:24-25).

The Old Testament looks forward to the Age in which all men would worship God everywhere, and not just in that "place which the LORD your God shall choose" (Deu. 12:11). The New Covenant priesthood is decentralized and universalized, not restricted to the "ordained" and the church traditions of men.

Exhortation is conversational, not sermonic. Preaching means dialogue, not a monologue. Rather than being equipped by New Testament-style exhortation and service, church-goers can become impotent and dependent upon a credentialed "professional" who engages in statism.

Fellowship is best accomplished in homes, not in pews. In "church" the "dignity" of priestly pomp and "worship" is substituted for the personal, house-to-house communion pictured in the Scriptures (Acts 2:46). A military-style symbol of a meal, and a view of the back of someone's head, is substituted for a genuine meal and a time of face-to-face fellowship.

To say that we are violating Scripture unless we also "attend church" in the building of an ecclesiastical corporation with a credentialed seminary graduate in the spotlight, is simply preposterous, a remnant of Roman Catholic teaching. There is not a shred of evidence to support such an ecclesiastical requirement, and the whole of Scripture seems to go against it. The movement in the Bible is away from ceremony and limited special priesthood, and toward decentralization, an every-believer priesthood, and a return to direct communication with God through his Spirit.

Our failure as believers to implement this truth comes from our friendship with the world, and conformity thereto (Romans 12:1-2; James 4:4). It seems strange to us to think of a household communion. In our culture, Grandparents live in their own house, Aunts and Uncles are likewise separated from their Nieces and Nephews, and it is "trendy" for children to move out of their parents' house as soon as they possibly can. In our day "the Family" has been described as one or two working parents and (maybe) 2.2 children (recently down to 1.8).

If we were to take a first-century believer (or even a modern-day member of a number of non-western cultures) up into an airplane over Southern California, and showed them city after city of single-family dwellings, all packed in like sardines, row after row, with parents in one house, children in another, grandparents in another, aunts and uncles in still another, and the poor and homeless wasting away in the abandoned section of industrial parks and urban ghettoes (where the suburban dwellers have coercively zoned them), our passenger would cry. Then he might become enraged: "This is sick! This is an abomination! I could never have imagined such atomism and selfish isolationism!" Little does he know that even among those houses where parents and children dwell together, it is little more than a motel, with students and commuters simply dropping in to sleep at night. In this land there is no property -- genuine property -- over which fruitful, honest dominion can be exercised unhindered by banks or landlords. It is a nation of slaves. Where in our land is an Abraham, with hundreds of adopted children, hundreds of domestic apprentices, hundreds of the poor and needy receiving shelter, hundreds of illiterate orphans being educated and brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and several generations of Family in blessed contact and harmonious community? Well, if we believe the churchmen, that ideal is clearly unattainable: we live in the New Covenant, and we do not have the Spiritual resources which Abraham had under the Old Covenant. Right?

Does Ephesians 5:19 - 6:24 command anything that cannot be fulfilled in "informal" Family-gatherings? The idea of Family communion is in our (atomistic, self-centered) day rightly ridiculed. We are not Patriarchs; we are children. How we cherish the churchmen, who only require us to "worship" in their church one day each week, and then dismiss us to watch our TV's in isolated silence.

We should always be conscious of Christ's Presence "where two or three are gathered in my name." Whenever we obey the command to assemble together for praising God, Scripture reading and study, exhortation and comfort, prayer and singing, and remembering the Lord's death in the communal meal, we are clearly engaging in a very special activity.

Remember, denominations aka the "Church" do not save anybody, only our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can save us (John 3:17; 10:9, Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:31, Romans 10:9,13).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The biggest problem with a movement away from the institutionalized church is dealing with rebels. By nature rebels can't stand discipline and confinement....especially when it comes to airing their personal beliefs. Open church meetings where all in attendance can speak in turn attracts them because they get a free audience for their selfish agendas. They don't love the body of Christ; they love themselves and glory in their haughty opinions and pride of knowledge.

This is also why I resist unschooled leaders. I've met too many of them who are really just rebels who are only interested in being exalted as leaders and who then push their way into leadership roles that cost them nothing, or who 'bought' them through having a position of influence. Which is attractive to them because they're undisciplined and hunting for the free way to get what they want. Because of this lack of godly character they have no skills or anointing to minister in the Spirit to the body of Christ. A degree shows me they're a little more interested in just being the leader out of pride and arrogance and wanting to press a selfish, personal agenda on the body. They've invested something and paid a price to show themselves approved as one who handles the word of God properly and is interested in the welfare of the body, not just themselves.

I'm speaking broadly, of course. A degree doesn't prove anything by itself. It's just a good sign that person has some measure of discipline and godly interest in the body. And a degree'd pastor or leader who is willing to step out of the economic safety of the institutionalized church, that's an even better sign you're dealing with a true servant of the Lord.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am convinced if someone is called by God to teach, lead, pastor, etc He will equip them to perform, with or without a degree.

I agree completely.
It's when I see no degree and a lack of godly character, that's when the alarm bells go off. I don't care how much they know in a case like that.

Not being necessary in the Kingdom of God, a degree in itself is advantageous and desirable in today's society.

Which is what I was getting at about it being useful from a purely outer point of view. You'll win more points with unbelievers, particularly, if a leader has a degree. They're showing some kind of unselfish investment in what they're representing when they have a degree. Loose cannons and rebels rarely impress.

We need more training of disciples within the church and it most definitely doesn't require a degree for this. It requires mature spiritual influence on our youth so they can grow up in the Lord and learn how to be a disciple by the example of others. Our youth need strong godly men and women in their lives.

And since this is not happening at this time we need degree'd pastors and leaders who have received that training and discipline.

I would disagree a degree is required for all leadership, again God equips the called.

I'm not saying it's required. I'm saying it will go a long way. If I'm not mistaken, seminaries teach much, much more than just Biblical knowledge.

I have been in leadership many times, from being a leader of the children's leadership group and director, to a preschool program manager, various leadership teams for transitional housing and fund raising roles, all within the church and my degree has nothing to do with any of it. LOL

I bet if you thought about it you'd see where even just the rudimentary knowledge of English, writing, and speaking has helped you.

I am sort of old school, and believe the women should play a more traditional role, while men's roles should be the pastoral and teaching of the whole congregations. Anyway, I'm off topic again.

Not off topic at all. This will surely be a major point of discussion in a non-institutionalized groups decisions about how they will do things.

My desire is to be in fellowship with other believers, worshipping and serving the Lord together! Teaching the lost and bringing them into the Kingdom!

And teaching the found, too, right? That's actually where my burden lies. I want to see the body of Christ grow up. IMO, I think that's actually what the meeting of the saints is mostly about (church=called out one's), but surely unbelievers in attendance (brought by other believers) must be taught how to enter the kingdom, too.

 

[Abigail123]

The biggest problem with a movement away from the institutionalized church is dealing with rebels. By nature rebels can't stand discipline and confinement....especially when it comes to airing their personal beliefs. Open church meetings where all in attendance can speak in turn attracts them because they get a free audience for their selfish agendas. They don't love the body of Christ; they love themselves and glory in their haughty opinions and pride of knowledge.

This is also why I resist unschooled leaders. I've met too many of them who are really just rebels who are only interested in being exalted as leaders and who then push their way into leadership roles that cost them nothing, or who 'bought' them through having a position of influence. Which is attractive to them because they're undisciplined and hunting for the free way to get what they want. Because of this lack of godly character they have no skills or anointing to minister in the Spirit to the body of Christ. A degree shows me they're a little more interested in just being the leader out of pride and arrogance and wanting to press a selfish, personal agenda on the body. They've invested something and paid a price to show themselves approved as one who handles the word of God properly and is interested in the welfare of the body, not just themselves.

I'm speaking broadly, of course. A degree doesn't prove anything by itself. It's just a good sign that person has some measure of discipline and godly interest in the body. And a degree'd pastor or leader who is willing to step out of the economic safety of the institutionalized church, that's an even better sign you're dealing with a true servant of the Lord.

You must feel quit comfortable here sharing your thoughts like this! ;) Who's the rebel? :D Just kidding

I will answer your last post later, after work, may God bless your day.

BTW, IMO, degrees are important and would never discourage anyone from pursuing one. I know someone who feels he is being called into the ministry and I am encouraging him to go to college, although God does equip the called one way or another.

 

[Northman]

The biggest problem with a movement away from the institutionalized church is dealing with rebels. By nature rebels can't stand discipline and confinement....especially when it comes to airing their personal beliefs. Open church meetings where all in attendance can speak in turn attracts them because they get a free audience for their selfish agendas. They don't love the body of Christ; they love themselves and glory in their haughty opinions and pride of knowledge.

But isn't this kinda what we are told to expect?

Let them alone, blind leading the blind. Not to trouble ourselves with censoring them. Do we not follow this?

 

[Abigail123]

I agree completely.
It's when I see no degree and a lack of godly character, that's when the alarm bells go off. I don't care how much they know in a case like that.


Which is what I was getting at about it being useful from a purely outer point of view. You'll win more points with unbelievers, particularly, if a leader has a degree. They're showing some kind of unselfish investment in what they're representing when they have a degree. Loose cannons and rebels rarely impress.


And since this is not happening at this time we need degree'd pastors and leaders who have received that training and discipline.


I'm not saying it's required. I'm saying it will go a long way. If I'm not mistaken, seminaries teach much, much more than just Biblical knowledge.


I bet if you thought about it you'd see where even just the rudimentary knowledge of English, writing, and speaking has helped you.


Not off topic at all. This will surely be a major point of discussion in a non-institutionalized groups decisions about how they will do things.



And teaching the found, too, right? That's actually where my burden lies. I want to see the body of Christ grow up. IMO, I think that's actually what the meeting of the saints is mostly about (church=called out one's), but surely unbelievers in attendance (brought by other believers) must be taught how to enter the kingdom, too.

I apologize for not answering yesterday, my computer is on the fritz so am using one of the kiddos, I pay for the internet service so I figured hey, why not...

There isn't much I disagree with you about. You did mention godly character, in addition to a degree, but I think another vital factor is life experience. Through the trials and tribulations we experience is how we are trained by God. Anyone can sit in a classroom and learn head knowledge, many can display godly character, but there is no other place we can experience life than to walk through it with God. This is how God intimately teaches us about Him.

We can learn about other people's experiences by reading the Bible, but He wants us to experience him ourselves. Not to repeat myself but this would be a vital requirement for those shepherding the flock.

If you recall, being a prophet of the OT wasn't much fun for them in their experiences and it seems a person who is truly called by God to be a pastor/teacher, would need to experience some pretty tough trials in order to be useful in His Kingdom.

 

[Eugene]

You bunch of fleshy Christians!!! Did you sign on a dotted line?
1Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Jesus put it this way:
Rev 2:8 . . . the church in Smyrna . .
Rev 2:12 . . the church in Pergamos . .
Rev 2:18 . . the church in Thyatira . .
Rev 3:1 . . . the church in Sardis . .

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.