Which Denominations are Christian? What test can we use?

[Free]

Interesting list.
If one is saved by Grace Alone and Christ alone then anyone who believes they are saved by Free Will would not be saved as they believe in salvation by Christ plus their freedom to choose Christ or not choose Christ (not save by Christ Alone).

It does create a bit of a difficulty for such a position and would require one to explain how choice isn't a work.

This would eliminate all those who do not know Christ was "raised on the third day" per verse 4. In other words, if someone had no clue how long Christ was in the grave he would go to hell.

I think the idea is more that he actually died and was in the grave, and then was physically raised.

Agreed (of course, I am guessing)

Aside: You ask 10 Christians what they must believe/do to be saved and you will probably get 9 different answers.

Yeah, most likely.

Hence we conclude that the knowledge of faith consists more of certainty than discernment. John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion , 3.2.14, 1:482.

There is a danger in reducing the faith to quantitative measurement. Such an arithmetic of belief obscures the qualitative, gracious, person, organic relation to Christ. Faith is trust in the grace of God and not calculable. The content of faith is not reducible to an arithmetic addition of articles. All believers, in principle, share the same knowledge and trust in the grace of God to save. Herman Bavinck – Reformed Dogmatics

"We mean that in justifying faith, Christ and His grace is the object immediately before the believer's mind; and that if he have a saving knowledge of this, but be ignorant of all the rest of the gospel, he may still be saved by believing this." "Systematic Theology" by Robert L. Dabney

Those are good quotes.

 

[Free]

You introduce a conundrum with your minimum.
Is it by faith alone, or is it by Jesus Christ alone ?
How can there be two "alones" ?

There is no conundrum; these things work together, they're not mutually exclusive.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (ESV)

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (ESV)

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
...
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

If our faith is evidenced by our love for one another, wouldn't stealing, murder, adultery, or lying to one another be the evidence of NO faith ?
I think so.

Not necessarily. Something like murder becomes difficult, depending on how it's defined. Premeditated murder would be indicative of a person who isn't saved, but killing someone in the heat the moment could depend on a number of things, such as if the person had a mental break with reality.

Christians sin all the time, knowingly and unknowingly. The difference is whether or not it is a habitual behaviour (or something born from a habit of the heart), or if it was a mistake made in the heat of a moment and conviction and repentance are immediate.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: This [the fact that Cor. 15:1-11 includes fact the Jesus was "raised on the 3rd day"] would eliminate all those who do not know Christ was "raised on the third day" per verse 4. In other words, if someone had no clue how long Christ was in the grave he would go to hell.

I think the idea is more that he actually died and was in the grave, and then was physically raised.

I agree that intuitively, Christ's death/resurrection seems more important ... but that is human sentiment. The fact remains IMO that you said that all the facts in 1 Cor. 15:1-11 must be believed to be saved and "Christ being raised on the 3rd day" is one of those facts. Without one some scriptural text to differentiate what is and is not necessary to be believed for salvation it is not possible to state you must believe "X" for salvation yet "Y" is not needed to be believed.
To my knowledge, 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is the only scripture that implies the knowledge of Christ's death and resurrection is needed for salvation. Paul wrote many epistles to other peoples in which he spoke of salvation so you think he would mention such an important fact if indeed it was a fact that must be known in order to be saved.
I grant it (death/resurrection) is an important fact and one of greatest historical events ever. Is it needed for salvation ... I don't know for sure ... God didn't give an exact recipe. Maybe you have to believe Christ died, maybe you have to believe Christ was raised, maybe you have to know Christ was raised on the third day ..... personally, I think you just have to believe Christ is God (I can give verses) and He has saved you. I also grant that it is impossible to have Christ as your Lord (Rom 10:9-10) if He was not alive.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Wow

Alfred Persson said:

Many, including me, believe in Prevenient Grace being the implied teaching of scripture because in both Testaments, God commands us to choose life or death, implying we have the capacity to do so.

Wow ... not too often is it that someone propounding "prevenient grace" will state the fact that the doctrine is implied and not explicitly stated.

You say that as though “implication” isn’t sufficient to believe a doctrine.

The word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and only in 1 John 5:7 is it said “these three are one”, a disputed text. But the doctrine is IMPLIED by a constellation of scriptures.

The Inerrancy of Scripture is never explicitly taught, but concepts like who God is, and verses like 2 Tim. 3:16 IMPLY IT.

MOST PERTINENT TO OUR DISCUSSION, Calvinism’s “Perseverance of the Saint”, a doctrine you hold, is only taught by IMPLICATION. It is implied by John 10:28-29.

The implication “prevenient grace” must exist is strong, given the depravity of man and the genuineness of God’s command we choose life, that it is possible we can make that choice.


Alfred Persson said:

God commands us to choose life or death, implying we have the capacity to do so.

Let's test this theory that when God says something we can do it ...

1 Corinthians 15

34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”. 1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not”. Anyone other than Hopeful been able to do this?


In context the sin is not having correct knowledge, not moral sin. A person can stop being ignorant, with study:

Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. (1 Cor. 15:34 NKJ)

In Context “may not sin”, “that ye not sin” means we must make the effort to stop sinning, but John knows we often fail as he goes on to explain “if anyone sins, we have an Advocate”:

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 Jn. 2:1 NKJ)

• Ezekiel 37:4 “Prophecy to these (dead) bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!'” (Notice, those dead bones had no ability to hear the word of the Lord. God had to give those skeletons life first, before they had the ability to hear the word of the Lord.)

Again, you take scripture out of context to make it teach what is not there. This is a vision, and in the vision the bones must have “heard the word of the LORD”, because they do what is asked of them.

• John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.

The dead are conscious, Lazarus heard Christ’s voice in the grave and obeyed it, just as these dead in the graves will:

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 NKJ)

• John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Anyone here think they love others to the degree that Christ did? It is implied that it is possible
• etc. etc.

That is like Prevenient Grace, God changes our hearts by His Spirit, and with our “new heart” we can love one another as Christ loved us.”


Alfred Persson said:
Do you think the arguments for both sides are "so good" the "other side" could be forgiven by God for "getting it wrong?"

Although I am aware of verses that may eternally condemns those that don't believe that are saved by Christ Alone where Christ Alone is defined as monergism I know of no scripture that condemns anyone for believing in salvation by Christ Alone.
The monergist gets to heaven and finds synergism is correct and is told ... "You didn't give yourself enough credit. Your free will decision to believe and Christ's work saved you."
The Synergist gets to heaven and finds monergism is corrent and is told ... "so, you think you have reason to boast for something you did not do .... well ... " ... Matt. 5:5

Antinomianism: Some rejected holy living claiming salvation by grace alone. This is a damnable heresy, and likely led to the eternal damnation of some. Paul combatted this error strongly:

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Rom. 6:1-2 NKJ)

Alfred Persson said:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 NKJ)

If synergism is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Furthermore, a work is achieved by physical or mental exertion to achieve a purpose. Thus, the verses invalid the idea that one can believe via his free will as that would be a WORK.

Incorrect, as my illustration proved:

To illustrate my thought on this: 100 people are drowning in the sea, but its pitch dark. Rescuers cannot see them although they are in lifeboats looking for them. Only some cry out to be saved, and the Rescuers can find them from the sound of their voice. Only those who cried for help survived, but all could have been had all of them cried out.

God gives us faith to believe He is, and is able to reward all who come to Him.

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

When we cry out in faith to God to save us, there is no merit in that, God doesn’t owe us wages for that, just as those who cried out to the rescuers could not, after being saved, demand payment.

Crying out for mercy is NOT a work that merits reward, wages. If you expect to be paid for crying out to God for mercy, you have another thing coming and it won’t be pleasant.

It is by God’s Prevenient Grace we can choose to cry out, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and we recognize our need, how lost we are and we cry out….All by the grace of God so man can boast.

Alfred Persson said:
God makes it possible we can choose life, its His gift; He overcomes our fallen nature, so we can make that decision. It is the definition of grace it is "a gift, unmerited." Therefore, it is extended to all and not a select few.

Faith cometh by hearing. Billions will never hear of Christ, therefore salvation is not extended to all.
Aside: Many synergists believe you can be saved without knowing Christ which contradicts John 3:18

I reject that. The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) so everyone who believes, regardless when and where they live, can be saved. If not in this life, then in the next:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 NKJ)

Alfred Persson said:
Interesting analogy. Scripture says we are not saved by WORKS and the saved have not reason to BOAST.
The people that called out were saved by their WORKS and have reason (granted, not much reason) to BOAST because they were smart/wise/lucky enough to realize the need to do the WORK of calling out which saved them. (God share His glory with no one).

What wages were they owed, those who called out to the rescuers? Did they demand “wages” when they were plucked from the water, saved from drowning?

You can have your own doctrine, but you should reinvent works.
Work is a "Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something" (you can google it). The guy performed a physical/mental activity of calling out to accomplish his being saved.

Next time a fireman plucks you out of a burning house, in response to your cries, try asking him to pay you for your “work”.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You say that as though “implication” isn’t sufficient to believe a doctrine.

The word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, and only in 1 John 5:7 is it said “these three are one”, a disputed text. But the doctrine is IMPLIED by a constellation of scriptures.

No, implication is definitely sufficient to believe a doctrine. You are an example of it.
Like much of the R.C. Church's doctrine is based on implication. Peter is the ROCK upon which Christ will build His church and next thing you know Peter is called the first pope and all subsequent popes become infallible .. .yahda, yahda
.... besides, there's plenty of scripture to contradict the implication of pervenient grace. (John 1:12-13, and many, many more) and I showed with scripture verses that show that God asks use to do things we cannot possibly do which was the basis of your implication.

MOST PERTINENT TO OUR DISCUSSION, Calvinism’s “Perseverance of the Saint”, a doctrine you hold, is only taught by IMPLICATION. It is implied by John 10:28-29.

I agree that Arminians are strong supporters of implication ... with good reason.

The implication “prevenient grace” must exist is strong, given the depravity of man and the genuineness of God’s command we choose life, that it is possible we can make that choice.

Prevenient grace is contradictory to scripture ... John 1:12-13, no one seeks God, it is a work that contradicts scripture, it is reason to boast the contradicts scripture, it makes God our puppet you must do according to what we do which contradicts Job 35:7-8 .... on and on
Arminian theology is based on assumptions to a great degree is true.

34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”. 1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not”. Anyone other than Hopeful been able to do this?

No, just Hopeful ... he's the man ... thanks for making me giggle

The dead are conscious, Lazarus heard Christ’s voice in the grave and obeyed it, just as these dead in the graves will:

Wow... so you believe Lazarus, of your own power, raised himself from the dead?

That is like Prevenient Grace, God changes our hearts by His Spirit, and with our “new heart” we can love one another as Christ loved us.”

Wow ... you assert we are able to love one another to the extent that Christ does. Wow

You can have your own doctrine, but you should reinvent works.
Work is a "Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something" (you can google it). The guy performed a physical/mental activity of calling out to accomplish his being saved.

I use the dictionary to define words like WORK. You avoid using the dictionary. 'nough said.

Thanks for addressing my points. I have to give you props for that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is no conundrum; these things work together, they're not mutually exclusive.

They may be "alone", but only in the context of the surrounding paragraph or sentence.
Salvation is by many different things, so none of them really stands alone

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (ESV)
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (ESV)
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)
Not necessarily. Something like murder becomes difficult, depending on how it's defined. Premeditated murder would be indicative of a person who isn't saved, but killing someone in the heat the moment could depend on a number of things, such as if the person had a mental break with reality.

I can't equivocate on sinning.

Christians sin all the time, knowingly and unknowingly. The difference is whether or not it is a habitual behaviour (or something born from a habit of the heart), or if it was a mistake made in the heat of a moment and conviction and repentance are immediate.

Our definition of what is a Christian is different.
Mine includes "reborn of God's seed".
God's seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
It also includes "the mind of Christ", so unfavorable conditions won't impact their thinking.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, implication is definitely sufficient to believe a doctrine. You are an example of it.
Like much of the R.C. Church's doctrine is based on implication. Peter is the ROCK upon which Christ will build His church and next thing you know Peter is called the first pope and all subsequent popes become infallible .. .yahda, yahda
.... besides, there's plenty of scripture to contradict the implication of pervenient grace. (John 1:12-13, and many, many more) and I showed with scripture verses that show that God asks use to do things we cannot possibly do which was the basis of your implication.

This is new, never has anyone mistaken me for a Roman Catholic.

If anything, I'm Reformed Baptist. Yes, I know all Calvins arguments, and he blew it:

I'll address the rest of your reply later:

Calvin’s self-contradiction proves Sherlock Holmes a better logician | End Time News

Calvin was not a sound logician like Sherlock Holmes, that is evident by the self-contradiction his premises imply. For example, Peter says: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the...

endtimenews.net

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, just Hopeful ... he's the man ... thanks for making me giggle

You could "do it" too, if you would repent of sin.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings,
I would like to add my perspective, representing a small fellowship with many beliefs different to the mainstream views. I consider that it is necessary to have an affectionate belief of the Apostolic Gospel and this is expressed as The Good News which includes the Things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Not only is this preaching an example, but the response was that as a result they were motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by being baptised in water for the forgiveness of their sins.

After our baptism we need to live the crucified/resurrected life, motivated by the love of Christ:
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The Apostolic Gospel has many portions and I suggest that mainstream "Christianity"" hold many views that are contrary to what the Apostles taught. The Bible teaches that there is One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. Jesus died as our representative. Man is mortal and awaits in the dust until the resurrection when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is new, never has anyone mistaken me for a Roman Catholic.

I don't think your a R.C. I was giving an example of how the R.C. church used implication to contrive another gospel headed by the pope. You thinking I was saying you're an R.C. is you again using 'implications' (however minor if at all) to make a point.

If anything, I'm Reformed Baptist.

You're a Reformed Baptist 2 WOW! Now that surprises me greatly. You believe in the 5 solas and T.U.L.I.P???? .... wow .... that does NOT coincide with your posts IMO .... I'm baffled

I'll address the rest of your reply later

I'll give you the last word. We just talk past each other so not not sense continuing IMO.
Again, I give you props for addressing my points.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't think your a R.C. I was giving an example of how the R.C. church used implication to contrive another gospel headed by the pope. You thinking I was saying you're an R.C. is you again using 'implications' (however minor if at all) to make a point.



You're a Reformed Baptist 2 WOW! Now that surprises me greatly. You believe in the 5 solas and T.U.L.I.P???? .... wow .... that does NOT coincide with your posts IMO .... I'm baffled



I'll give you the last word. We just talk past each other so not not sense continuing IMO.
Again, I give you props for addressing my points.

Upon rereading I realized that. I said close to Reformed Baptist. Its clear I have "heterodox" opinions on Hades, Predestination that horrifies the Reformed. But I'm right, its they who are wrong.

I don't profess TULIP, although I once did. Calvin was wrong. Everyone is wrong on Predestination, both Arminius and Calvin were blind to the elephant in the middle. One had the trunk, the other the tail and they strongly disputed what an elephant is. Neither saw the body.

Like the Blind Men and the Elephant, Calvin citing Paul declared Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Arminius quoted Peter and insisted it was based upon the works of “foreseen faith” or its arbitrary nature implies unrighteousness with God.

But if we deduce what it was God foreknew, the paradox vanishes. Before the foundation of the world it follows Omniscient God had two versions of Creation in view, the “Unfallen Version” which existed only in the Mind of God, and the “Fallen Version” that actually came into existence.

If God elects according to “a condition” foreknown in the “unfallen version” (which never comes into existence), Election would be according to God’s Sovereign “good purpose and will” and free of any hint of unfairness even though it is not based upon any works of good or evil the Elect do in this life.

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

Two foundational premises used by both Arminius and Calvin are wrong, hence everything they built on that foundation is skewed, only partly correct. In the unfallen realm, only Children of God and Children of the Devil exist. But in the fallen realm, there are three classes: The Elect, The Undetermined, The Reprobate.

All the scriptures implying one cannot lose their salvation pertain to the elect, all implying its possible one can lose their salvation pertain to the Undetermined, all those about the eternally lost pertain to the Reprobate.


I intend to address your points, when I have time. Hope springs eternal, one day you will suddenly have an epiphany and exclaim, "Hey, he is right!"

 

[jasonc]

Molinism .hard pass

 

[Alfred Persson]

Molinism .hard pass

Not Molinism. His view depended on "Middle Knowledge", mine on "Natural Knowledge" which no one objects to.

God Omnisciently knows what every unfallen individual human would do in a particular set of circumstances, where they came to into existence knowing fully God's love for them, and His Person. Those who responded to God's love and Person, with love ----God predestines all things will work together for their good:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

Those who are called to live with God forever, according to the purpose of enjoying life with Him for all eternity, in love and holiness, enjoying life to its fullest with God---He in them, and they in Him, are selected from among all who would ever live, and predestined unto salvation.

God will not tolerate Death or Satan have the victory over one of these He foreknew are His, therefore He predestines them unto salvation.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom. 8:29-39 NKJ)

Everyone else is "undetermined", they choose in this life whether they also will live eternally with God in love.

Those who haven't heard the gospel of Christ, will upon death, even infants are granted the intellectually ability to understand, and those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and trust in His sacrifice to pay for their sins, will be raised to the resurrection of life, even if they hear the gospel while in Hades, the grave:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Upon death there is a judgment, the dead hear Christ's voice and all who obey pass over from death into life, eagerly waiting for His second appearance unto salvation:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, implication is definitely sufficient to believe a doctrine. You are an example of it.
Like much of the R.C. Church's doctrine is based on implication. Peter is the ROCK upon which Christ will build His church and next thing you know Peter is called the first pope and all subsequent popes become infallible .. .yahda, yahda
.... besides, there's plenty of scripture to contradict the implication of pervenient grace. (John 1:12-13, and many, many more) and I showed with scripture verses that show that God asks use to do things we cannot possibly do which was the basis of your implication.


I agree that Arminians are strong supporters of implication ... with good reason.



Prevenient grace is contradictory to scripture ... John 1:12-13, no one seeks God, it is a work that contradicts scripture, it is reason to boast the contradicts scripture, it makes God our puppet you must do according to what we do which contradicts Job 35:7-8 .... on and on
Arminian theology is based on assumptions to a great degree is true.





No, just Hopeful ... he's the man ... thanks for making me giggle




Wow... so you believe Lazarus, of your own power, raised himself from the dead?



Wow ... you assert we are able to love one another to the extent that Christ does. Wow



I use the dictionary to define words like WORK. You avoid using the dictionary. 'nough said.

Thanks for addressing my points. I have to give you props for that.

Any objection to knowing implied truth, is absurd. We make decisions based upon implied truth.

After a mechanic fixes our car we confidently drive it home, because its implied it will not burst into flames and kill us.

When we bite into a burger at McDonalds, we wash it down with a drink in full confidence it won't kill us, because it implied McDonalds food will not harm us.

Using implication Christ taught the bodily resurrection to the Sadducees:

26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying,`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '?
27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." (Mk. 12:26-27 NKJ)

The existence of the Patriarchs in the Presence of God implies they must be resurrected, because He promised them they and their descendants would physically live with Him forever (Gen. 17:7-8; 26:3; 28:13). Therefore, the resurrection of the body is IMPLIED in the Torah

If its good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for you.

As for work, its done for wages, some reward. Crying out for someone to save you is not a "work" by that definition. No one owes you wages when you cry out to be saved from a fire.

Preaching the Gospel TO EVERYONE implies they can repent and be saved. That implies God's unmerited grace in granting them the ability to choose, prevenient grace is a good name for it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nicene Creed

That is a popular belief, but do Christians you know really understand the Creed? Many I know don't have a clue, but they love Jesus and live for Him.

Therefore, I must disagree. All who know Christ's voice follow Him, and He will not turn them away even if the Nicene Creed isn't known by them:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (Jn. 10:27-28 NKJ)

 

[jasonc]

That is a popular belief, but do Christians you know really understand the Creed? Many I know don't have a clue, but they love Jesus and live for Him.

Therefore, I must disagree. All who know Christ's voice follow Him, and He will not turn them away even if the Nicene Creed isn't known by them:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (Jn. 10:27-28 NKJ)

I wasn't raised in either creeds and when I knew them it wasnt strange .

 

[evenifigoalone]

That is a popular belief, but do Christians you know really understand the Creed? Many I know don't have a clue, but they love Jesus and live for Him.

Therefore, I must disagree. All who know Christ's voice follow Him, and He will not turn them away even if the Nicene Creed isn't known by them:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (Jn. 10:27-28 NKJ)

Not the creed itself so much as the set of Christian beliefs that make us Christian

 

[Alfred Persson]

I wasn't raised in either creeds and when I knew them it wasn't strange .

I almost became a JW, and God used Acts 13:2 "I" "Me" to prove JWs wrong about the Holy Spirit, only a Person can say "I" or "Me", not an active force. The text explicitly says its the Holy Spirit who is speaking, not the Father or Son.

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:2-4 NKJ)

After confessing Christ publicly as LORD and being born again, I studied Systematic Theologies on Christian doctrine, carefully. Didn't want to be fooled again.

I don't see the same level of diligence in every believer, but its clear to me they know the LORD.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not the creed itself so much as the set of Christian beliefs that make us Christian

I agree, its a personal relationship with Christ. A reliance on God and life of repentance for our many failures. Paul, a Rabbinic Scholar of the highest degree, confessed his faith saying:

For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. (1 Cor. 2:2 NKJ)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Alfred Persson,

I almost became a JW,

That would have been a bad result as the JWs have many wrong teachings and practices.

only a Person can say "I" or "Me", not an active force

The Holy Spirit is more than an active force, it is God's power used in many ways, as you could say it is almost an intelligent power, but the Holy Spirit is not a separate "Person" or the third Person of the Trinity. For example, could an "active force" heal a lame man, cause people to speak in various languages, raise Lazarus from the dead after four days?

After confessing Christ publicly as LORD

Jesus is Lord, not "LORD" = Yahweh, consider Psalm 110:1 where these two words are distinguished.

Kind regards
Trevor