Which do the catholics believe?

[Heidi]

The following is a quote of a Catholic poster here:

"We believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture being the Bible and Sacred Tradition being the teaching of the Church throughout the years. Only the Bible is inspired in the since that the Holy Spirit wrote through the authors, Church Councils and ex cathedra statements are granted the charism of infalliblity by the Holy Spirit which prevents them from teaching error.[/"

By claiming that the clergy is infallible they are proclaiming them to be God because only God is infallible. They are also claiming that other men can declare who is infallible. :o So let's see how infallible the catholic clergy is in relation to what God's word tells us. Since the traditional teachings of the catholic church are the opposite of what the bible says, then the quote is not a true statement. So which do the Catholics believe is the inspired word of God? The bible or the traditional teachings of the Catholic church?

The following are verses in the bible and the teachings of those verses by the Catholics;

The Bible: 1) Matthew 1:25, "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And they named him Jesus."

Catholic teachings: "But he had no union with her ever."

2) The Bible: Matthew 5:9, "And do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father and he is in heaven."

Catholic teachings: You can call anyone you like "father' for you have many fathers who are equal to your Father in heaven.' (which is verified by the catholics proclaiming the pope infallible).

3) The Bible: Exodus 20:4; "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a Jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

Catholic teachings. You can make for yourself any idol you want to of anything in heaven or on the earth and bow down and pray to them."

4) The Bible: John 3:5, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingodm of unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

Catholic teachings: "Only the Catholic clergy are born again so you have to go to them to understand the bible."

5) The Bible: 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus..."

Catholic teachings: "You have many mediators, Mary, the pope, and all other saints to whom you pray to deliver a message to God."

The Catholics should also believe Jesus when he says; "He who exalts himself will be humbled." And there can hardly be anything more exalting than claiming one is infallible enough to be called our Holy Father." :x So since the teachings of the catholic church directly contradict Christ's words, the Cathoics have been humbled already.

So which of the above do Catholics believe? The bible or the traditional teachings of the catholic church. You cannot believe both because they contradict each other. So let's see if the catholics put the bible first or the traditional teachings of the Catholic church even when they contradict the bible. ;-) And by the way, a correct interpretation is not one that directly says that opposite of what the bible says. :roll:

 

[biblecatholic]

By claiming that the clergy is infallible they are proclaiming them to be God because only God is infallible. They are also claiming that other men can declare who is infallible. :o So let's see how infallible the catholic clergy is in relation to what God's word tells us. Since the traditional teachings of the catholic church are the opposite of what the bible says, then the quote is not a true statement. So which do the Catholics believe is the inspired word of God? The bible or the traditional teachings of the Catholic church?

i guess you must not be informed on what it is to be infallible like the pope. he is infallible on matters of faith and morals in a declaration(the Holy Spirit protects him much like you believe He protects you)so if you are saying that we put the pope on par with God then you are saying that God is only right if He makes an official pronouncement on a matter of faith and morals nothing else which i hope you dont think. its much more reasonable to believe that God protects 1 person on just some matters than you and everyone else being infallible with your personal interpretation

ill take on each charge in a little bit

 

[biblecatholic]

The Bible: 1) Matthew 1:25, "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And they named him Jesus."

it means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that the action did happen later, which is the modern sense of the term. in fact, if the modern sense is forced on the bible some ridiculous meanings result.

"Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23). i guess she had children after she was dead?

Deut. 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
But no one has known since that day either.

 

[Heidi]

i guess you must not be informed on what it is to be infallible like the pope. he is infallible on matters of faith and morals in a declaration(the Holy Spirit protects him much like you believe He protects you)so if you are saying that we put the pope on par with God then you are saying that God is only right if He makes an official pronouncement on a matter of faith and morals nothing else which i hope you dont think. its much more reasonable to believe that God protects 1 person on just some matters than you and everyone else being infallible with your personal interpretation

ill take on each charge in a little bit

Sorry, friend but the indwelling Holy Spirit is the same Spirit with which the bible was written which means they will never disagree.

So no, one cannot claim he has the holy Spirit then change the bible. That's what all cult leaders do. David Koresch claimed that the holy Spirit told him that he was infallible and only he knew what the bible means just like the pope claims. Jim Jones claimed that the holy Spirit told him that only he knew what the bible meant, just like the pope does.

So how do we know which person is telling the truth? Very simple. If he agrees with the bible he is telling the truth. If he does not agree with the bible, then he is not being guided by the Holy Spirit. There is no higher authority than Christ's words. And anyone who does not believe that or who disagrees with Christ's words does not worship Christ. Period.

 

[biblecatholic]

2) The Bible: Matthew 5:9, "And do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father and he is in heaven."

please don’t use this one.lol.you really need to read the scriptures with an anti catholic bias
1 cor 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
matt 19:19 honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'
acts 7:2 To this he replied: "Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran.
acts 22:1 1"Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense."
romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!
1 john 2:13 I write to you, fathers
because you have known him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, dear children,
because you have known the Father.

 

[Heidi]

please don’t use this one.lol.you really need to read the scriptures with an anti catholic bias
1 cor 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
matt 19:19 honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'
acts 7:2 To this he replied: "Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran.
acts 22:1 1"Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense."
romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!
1 john 2:13 I write to you, fathers
because you have known him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, dear children,
because you have known the Father.

So then you're disagreeing with Jesus in Matthew 5:9. Is that correct? :o

Obviously so. You have therefore proven my point that catholics will never disagree with the pope, but will disagree with Jesus at every turn. That is called a cult and is why Catholics are therefore not Christians.

In fact, you have proven exactly why Jesus tells us not to call anyone on this earth 'father" especially "Our Holy Father". Because they begin to replace God's teachings with their new Holy Father, the pope. And that's eactly what the catholics do when they don't believe Jesus in Matthew 5:9, Matthew 1:35 and many other passages in the bible. :x

 

[biblecatholic]

So no, one cannot claim he has the holy Spirit then change the bible. That's what all cult leaders do. David Koresch claimed that the holy Spirit told him that he was infallible and only he knew what the bible means just like the pope claims. Jim Jones claimed that the holy Spirit told him that only he knew what the bible meant, just like the pope does.
[/b]

the pope has never changed interpretation. you think you have the "Holy Spirit" and know all truth. these are your private interpretations. is it just you that knows the bible or does your neighbor who interprets it different know the bible? so would you be comparable to jim jones he used private interpretation..
what denom are you?

 

[biblecatholic]

So then you're disagreeing with Jesus in Matthew 5:9. Is that correct? :o

Obviously so. You have therefore proven my point that catholics will never disagree with the pope, but will disagree with Jesus at every turn. That is called a cult and is why Catholics are therefore not Christians.

In fact, you have proven exactly why Jesus tells us not to call anyone on this earth 'father" especially "Our Holy Father". Because they begin to replace God's teachings with their new Holy Father, the pope. And that's eactly what the catholics do when they don't believe Jesus in Matthew 5:9, Matthew 1:35 and many other passages in the bible. :x

as usual you cant answer what verses i gave you.
do you call your dad ,father?

 

[Heidi]

the pope has never changed interpretation. you think you have the "Holy Spirit" and know all truth. these are your private interpretations. is it just you that knows the bible or does your neighbor who interprets it different know the bible? so would you be comparable to jim jones he used private interpretation..
what denom are you?

The Holy Spirit leads us to agree with the Bible. So all those who agree with the bible have the indwelling Spirit and all those who disagree with the bible don't. It's that simple. The Spirit does not lead us to contradict God's word. Only Satan leads people to do that. :x

So the catholics contradict themselves when they claim to believe the bible yet they disagree with the bible at the same time as you have just done with Matthew 23:9.

 

[aj830]

The Bible: 1) Matthew 1:25, "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And they named him Jesus."

Catholic teachings: "But he had no union with her ever."

He had no union with her doesn't imply what happened after she gave birth just that until she had the son Joseph had had no union with her.

2) The Bible: Matthew 5:9, "And do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father and he is in heaven."

Catholic teachings: You can call anyone you like "father' for you have many fathers who are equal to your Father in heaven.' (which is verified by the catholics proclaiming the pope infallible).

What do you call your father? If you call him father(dad, pa, whatever) then you aren't following Christ's teaching, at least according to you. Biblecath offered some other info on this.

3) The Bible: Exodus 20:4; "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a Jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

Catholic teachings. You can make for yourself any idol you want to of anything in heaven or on the earth and bow down and pray to them."

Yes because Catholics pray to statues and worship them. :roll: Heidi do you have any idea what the Church teaches? The Church FORBIDS worship of images because it is a sin. The Church combated early heresies against image worship.

4) The Bible: John 3:5, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingodm of unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

Catholic teachings: "Only the Catholic clergy are born again so you have to go to them to understand the bible."

These are just geting worse as I go along. The Catholic clergy are no less a sinner and no smarter than you or I and your statement about the Catholic going to the clergy to "understand the Bible" has nothing to do with being "born again". Catholics trust God that his Church would not fall(which it hasn't) and that he will prevent councils and ex cathedra statements from teaching error on faith and morals.

5) The Bible: 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus..."

Catholic teachings: "You have many mediators, Mary, the pope, and all other saints to whom you pray to deliver a message to God."

The Church teaches that Christ is our mediator. We ask the communion of saints to pray for us. Catholics DO NOT worship saints.

The Catholics should also believe Jesus when he says; "He who exalts himself will be humbled." And there can hardly be anything more exalting than claiming one is infallible enough to be called our Holy Father." So since the teachings of the catholic church directly contradict Christ's words, the Cathoics have been humbled already.

The Pope is in a position of authority but he is "The Servant of the Servants of God". It is not the Pope himself that is the thing that is exalted but the OFFICE of the Pope. I should be thankful that God has given us a great gift such as this. The Pope is a human being just like you and me and Pope's should NOT let the fact of being Pope.

Heidi, I ask you to please stop starting with new threads that deal with the same subject matter because it is hard to keep up with

Why was the Catholic/Orthodox forum taken off? It seems like now we need it with all these recent threads.

 

[biblecatholic]

The Holy Spirit leads us to agree with the Bible. So all those who agree with the bible have the indwelling Spirit and all those who disagree with the bible don't. It's that simple. The Spirit does not lead us to contradict God's word. Only Satan leads people to do that. :x

So the catholics contradict themselves when they claim to believe the bible yet they disagree with the bible at the same time as you have just done with Matthew 23:9.

so YOU refuse to look at what the bible says. not just cherry picking and spinning. you dont understand the meaning of that passage. if you believe you cant call someone father, then i ask again have you ever called you dad father, and do you celebrate fathers day?

 

[francisdesales]

The Holy Spirit leads us to agree with the Bible. So all those who agree with the bible have the indwelling Spirit and all those who disagree with the bible don't. It's that simple. The Spirit does not lead us to contradict God's word. Only Satan leads people to do that. :x

So why do you believe something that is not in the Bible? WHY do you believe something that is DENIED in the Bible?

WHAT does the Bible say about Sola Scriptura? Do a word search of "bible alone" and see what you get...
WHAT does the Bible say about being saved by faith alone? Do a word search of "faith alone" and see what you get...

You keep ignoring me, but while you continue to post such hate-filled posts that lack any love, I will continue to show the world that you are hypocritical in your views and don't even realize it.

Look to the beam in your eye, madam.

 

[Heidi]

as usual you cant answer what verses i gave you.
do you call your dad ,father?

Why do you try to provide verses that you think contradict Christ's words? :o You first have to answer that before you'll listen to my explanations of those verse.

But one thing you can be sure of, the verses you gave me do not contradict Christ's words. Once you know that, you will come up with the correct interpretation of thoses verses. So I'll let you think about them for awhile.

 

[Heidi]

So why do you believe something that is not in the Bible? WHY do you believe something that is DENIED in the Bible?

WHAT does the Bible say about Sola Scriptura? Do a word search of "bible alone" and see what you get...
WHAT does the Bible say about being saved by faith alone? Do a word search of "faith alone" and see what you get...

You keep ignoring me, but while you continue to post such hate-filled posts that lack any love, I will continue to show the world that you are hypocritical in your views and don't even realize it.

Look to the beam in your eye, madam.

I've already given you 2 verses, namely, John 1:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 11:4 that tell us that scripture is the only source for the truth, which the catholics have incidentally, agreed with.

So it is you who is not only conradicting yourself, but denying the verses I gave you. So you are in error again when you claim that there are no verses in the bible that claim that scripture is the sole word of God. But if you don't know what scripture is, then that's the first thing you have to elarn before you know who your Lord is, and what he said. You cannot worship someone when you don't know where to find his words. :roll:

 

[aj830]

Why do you try to provide verses that you think contradict Christ's words? You first have to answer that before you'll listen to my explanations of those verse.

Why do you want us to find verses that contradict Christ's Words when they do not exist? You need to learn to take the verses that you provide into context. We have already given an explanation. Christ's admonition in the verse is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.

Look at this if you want further explanation.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

 

[Heidi]

as usual you cant answer what verses i gave you.
do you call your dad ,father?

No, I don't. He's deceased. You're still trying to contradict Christ's words so your interpretation isn't correct. So try again to get the right interpretation.

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you try to provide verses that you think contradict Christ's words? :o You first have to answer that before you'll listen to my explanations of those verse.

But one thing you can be sure of, the verses you gave me do not contradict Christ's words. Once you know that, you will come up with the correct interpretation of thoses verses. So I'll let you think about them for awhile.

Biblecatholic is not contradicting the Word, but rather, your INTERPRETATION of the Word. The Word is crystal clear. We have Jesus saying one thing and Paul calling himself a father. John does the same thing. OBVIOUSLY, Jesus didn't mean that no one could use the word "father" for themselves - otherwise, the clear Word found in John's epistles and Corinthians would disobey what Jesus said.

Thus, we must admit that one of two things are at work.

Either the Bible contradicts itself,

Or

Your interpretation of Jesus' words are wrong.

Since I believe the Bible is the Word of God and cannot lead to falsehood, I will go along with the second option. Since you don't seem to mind that the Bible contradicts itself with your opinion, then you must not really believe the Bible is the Word of God.

 

[biblecatholic]

Why do you try to provide verses that you think contradict Christ's words? :o You first have to answer that before you'll listen to my explanations of those verse.

But one thing you can be sure of, the verses you gave me do not contradict Christ's words. Once you know that, you will come up with the correct interpretation of thoses verses. So I'll let you think about them for awhile.

since you cant answer. ill provide you something that you contradict with what Jesus says. matt 19:17 Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." but you call this works.


remember you must understand what is said.
with your rational if i said its raining cats and dogs you would tell people to take cover cause cats and dogs are falling from the sky

 

[Heidi]

Biblecatholic is not contradicting the Word, but rather, your INTERPRETATION of the Word. The Word is crystal clear. We have Jesus saying one thing and Paul calling himself a father. John does the same thing. OBVIOUSLY, Jesus didn't mean that no one could use the word "father" for themselves - otherwise, the clear Word found in John's epistles and Corinthians would disobey what Jesus said.

Thus, we must admit that one of two things are at work.

Either the Bible contradicts itself,

Or

Your interpretation of Jesus' words are wrong.

Since I believe the Bible is the Word of God and cannot lead to falsehood, I will go along with the second option. Since you don't seem to mind that the Bible contradicts itself with your opinion, then you must not really believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Do you know the difference between a quote and an interpretaion? :o Obviously not. So I'll enlighten you. My "interpretation" of Matthew 23:9 is, "Do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father and he is in heaven."

Notice I didn't change one word in that passage for my "interpretation." I simply believe it as written. Do you? Heavens no! The catholics change those words to say: "Do call anyone on earth father for you have many fathers equal to your father in heaven."

So as you can see, it's the catholics who change the bible, not me. Sorry. ;-) So what the catholics do is no different than me claiming that you said: "The word is not crystal clear." Again, would that be the correct interpretation of your words?Yes or no.

And by the way, the bible does not contradict itself. If your interpretation makes it contradict itself then it is an incorrect interpretation and you are not worshiping Jesus Christ as having the truth, period. :x

 

[aj830]

Do you know the difference between a quote and an interpretaion? Obviously not. So I'll enlighten you. My "interpretation" of Matthew 23:9 is, "Do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father and he is in heaven."

Notice I didn't change one word in that passage for my "interpretation." I simply believe it as written. Do you? Heavens no! The catholics change those words to say: "Do call anyone on earth father for you have many fathers equal to your father in heaven."

So as you can see, it's the catholics who change the bible, not me. Sorry. So what the catholics do is no different than me claiming that you said: "The word is not crystal clear." Again, would that be the correct interpretation of your words?Yes or no.

And by the way, the bible does not contradict itself. If your interpretation makes it contradict itself then it is an incorrect interpretation and you are not worshiping Jesus Christ as having the truth, period.

No you are just completley taking a verse out of the entire context of the rest of the Bible. The other verses that Biblecath have offered do not contradict with this verse. They are meant to be taken as a whole and as you obviously cant seem to understand when we call a priest father it has nothing to do with making them "fathers equal to your father in heaven". I offer you to look over this page and please respond to the question, if your father was still alive(May his soul forever rest in the peace of our Heavenly Father) would you call him father? If so are you contradicting Scripture?