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Which do the catholics believe?

aj830 said:
No you are just completley taking a verse out of the entire context of the rest of the Bible. The other verses that Biblecath have offered do not contradict with this verse. They are meant to be taken as a whole and as you obviously cant seem to understand when we call a priest father it has nothing to do with making them "fathers equal to your father in heaven". I offer you to look over this page and please respond to the question, if your father was still alive(May his soul forever rest in the peace of our Heavenly Father) would you call him father? If so are you contradicting Scripture?

Oh yes it does. Calling your priests "father" is what makes the Catholics believe the priests over the bible. ANd that's precisely why Jesus tells us not to call anyone on earth 'father,' particularly our religious leaders. And that's why the catholics don't believe Matthew 1:25, Exodus 20:4, Leviticus 26:1, Matthew 23:5-12 and many other verses.

So calling your priests fathers proves Christ's point perfectly. They have no clue who their one teacher should be, which is why tyou admit that the catholics have the catholic clergy tell them what the bible means. If your preists told you that John the baptist was sinless, you'd believe them. The catholics will believe anything their preists say no matter how unbiblical is because they have replaced their Holy Father with earthly "fathers' in the catholic church. All you need is Jesus...if you believe Jesus. But if you don't, you'll believe your preists instead. Once again, the catholics never disagree with the pope's slant on the bible. But they disagree with the bible all the time as the above verses which they don't agree with show. End of story. :)
 
Oh yes it does. Calling your priests "fathe" is what makes the Catholics believe the priests over the bible. And that's why the catholics don't believe Matthew 1:25, Exodus 20:4, Leviticus 26:1, Matthew 23:5-12 and many other verses.

So calling your priests fathers proves Christ's point perfectly. They have no clue who their one teacher should be, which is why tyou admit that the catholics have the catholic clergy tell them what the bible means. All you need is Jesus...if you believe Jesus. But if you don't, you'll believe your preists instead. Once again, the catholics never disagree with the pope's slant on the bible. But they disagree with the bible all the time as the above verses which they don't agree with show. End of story.

I don't remember me or any other Catholics ever saying we don't believe in those verses. In fact I think countless times we have said we believe the Bible its entirety.

How does calling priest father any different from calling a leader of another church pastor? Christ was admonishing the Pharisees for puffing themselves up with their titles and not humbly taking their positions on "the seat of Moses". Yes all I need is Jesus and that is why I listen to him when he said to Simon Peter "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church."

You make to many assumptions and put words in Catholics' mouths that we have not said. So no it is not the end of the story because you have still not answered my question and obviously have not read through any of the link I offered. I know you are really what Bishop Sheen would call one of the "millions who hate the Church for what they believe it to be", I don't believe you really understand what the Church teaches and therefore are not one of "the hundred who hate the Church."

Here is the link again if you have time to read it.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
 
aj830 said:
I don't remember me or any other Catholics ever saying we don't believe in those verses. In fact I think countless times we have said we believe the Bible its entirety.

How does calling priest father any different from calling a leader of another church pastor? Christ was admonishing the Pharisees for puffing themselves up with their titles and not humbly taking their positions on "the seat of Moses". Yes all I need is Jesus and that is why I listen to him when he said to Simon Peter "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church."

You make to many assumptions and put words in Catholics' mouths that we have not said. So no it is not the end of the story because you have still not answered my question and obviously have not read through any of the link I offered. I know you are really what Bishop Sheen would call one of the "millions who hate the Church for what they believe it to be", I don't believe you really understand what the Church teaches and therefore are not one of "the hundred who hate the Church."

Here is the link again if you have time to read it.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

So why do the catholics disobey Jesus and call their priests 'fathers" and the pope "Our Holy Father"? :o

Why do the catholics claim that Mary was a virgin all her life when Matthew 1:25 not only says that she was not a virgin all her life, but tells us exactly when she lost her virginity? :o

Why do the Catholics erect statues of Peter, Paul, Mary, and there is even a statue of Appollo in the vatican? :o

Why do the catholics bow down to the statues like Pope John Paul did when he praised Mary for healing him? :o

Why do the catholics go through Mary to get to God when God's word tells us Jesus is the only way to God? :o

So sorry, friend, but the Catholics don't have a leg to stand on. They take pride in disagreeing with God's word which cannot be justified in any way, shape, or form. :x But since they now call the pope their Holy Father instead of using that title only for God, they will never see the pope as a fallible human being but instead as a god. And that is precisely why Jesus warns us not to call any one on earth 'father' particularly religious figures.
 
Heidi, I don't know if anyone can get through to you.
So why do the catholics disobey Jesus and call their priests 'fathers" and the pope "Our Holy Father"?

Again look at my link

Why do the catholics claim that Mary was a virgin all her life when Matthew 1:25 not only says that she was not a virgin all her life, but tells us exactly when she lost her virginity?

Because Mat 1:25 never says she lost her virginity and all evidence in the Bible and history point that she didn't lose her virginity.

Why do the Catholics erect statues of Peter, Paul, Mary, and there is even a statue of Appollo in the vatican?

Why does anybody erect statues of anyone? To commemorate their life, Catholics don't worship them. Surely you have images of your loved ones. If there is a statue of Apollo it is probably for artistic value. The Coliseum used to be a place of mass killings and built by Pagan Romans but you would not just go and tear it down because it shows the architecture of the time and has artistic and historic value.

Why do the catholics bow down to the statues like Pope John Paul did when he praised Mary for healing him?

Why do the catholics go through Mary to get to God when God's word tells us Jesus is the only way to God?

So sorry, friend, but the Catholics don't have a leg to stand on. They take pride in disagreeing with God's word which cannot be justified in any way, shape, or form.

Really Heidi I am just tired of repeating myself and we keep getting off on separate subjects that would be for other threads. Catholics have more than a leg to stand on, we have Christ himself as our support. You are the only one taking pride in taking your misunderstandings of Scripture and contorting Catholic teaching. Your teaching is the one that disagrees with God's Word and the Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of the Truth.

Sorry Heidi, but you are just running in circles, have refused to respond to info I have provided(or at least tell me you don't have time to look at it), and have refused to respond to any of my questions. So if you wish to carry on a discussion and not a one way interrogation then I will gladly continue but if not then I can see that we are going to get no where and that you really don't want to hear what I have to say.
 
BibleCatholic wrote:

[quote:e5c7b]
"Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23). i guess she had children after she was dead?

Deut. 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
But no one has known since that day either.
[/quote:e5c7b]

No infallible one, it means she had no children, and if you had read anything about the Bible, you'd know that. From the time she was rebuffed by David for him displaying his repentance publically, which she as Saul's daughter didn't accept cause she thought it was undignified! The curse of barreness was imposed on her, and the loss of royal seed from Saul's line intermarring into David's!

And he who buried who? Well God personally buried Moses! What arrogance! What Ignorance! Haven't your traditions ever told you that the devil wanted Moses' body? And that no man was to know, desecrate or idolize his tomb?
 
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

While I tend to agree with most of what's said, of this rather even-handed and semi-inspired article, I would still think that most Protestants, at least of non-liturgical led churchs, would tend to put Catholic's in the incorrect-use of the word category. The reasons I would offer you for this reasoning are the fact priests are celibate or suppose to be, which is never apart of God's plan. The fact that the term cardinals comes from the priests of ancient Rome. The fact that the RC church inorder to bring everyone they can into there fold, mixed paganism and religion into one order. This is even present today, in various forms or another of iconclastic imagery and worship. Not to mention some of the bizarre goings on by Half-Catholic Half-Traditional religions in various parts of the world such as Africa, Haiti, South America and parts of Asia. Let alone the Pope who has ... well lets not go there ... If we were to add in the views of Malachi Martin or a contemporary of the current Pope Hans Kung, who probably could have been a pope, well thats another matter too. Not to mention the Infalliblity and Transubstantiation issues. Or if we were to go back in time, well, it wouldn't be pretty, Anyways. Peace. Good article though.
 
aj830 said:
Heidi, I don't know if anyone can get through to you.


Really Heidi I am just tired of repeating myself and we keep getting off on separate subjects that would be for other threads. Catholics have more than a leg to stand on, we have Christ himself as our support. You are the only one taking pride in taking your misunderstandings of Scripture and contorting Catholic teaching. Your teaching is the one that disagrees with God's Word and the Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of the Truth.

Sorry Heidi, but you are just running in circles, have refused to respond to info I have provided(or at least tell me you don't have time to look at it), and have refused to respond to any of my questions. So if you wish to carry on a discussion and not a one way interrogation then I will gladly continue but if not then I can see that we are going to get no where and that you really don't want to hear what I have to say.


Sorry but I have scripture on my side. So it's you who can't be gotten through to. I don't buy the fact that the Catholics don't understand Matthew 1:25. The sentence is as simple as "But he didn't eat desert until he finished the main course." So it's a blatant lie that the bible doesn't say that Mary lost her virginity and the Catholics know it.

So I'm tired of listening to them pervert the gospel and what's sadder is that they could care less if they twist the verses to agree with the pope. That's why Jesus told us not to call anyone on earth Father because the catholics now replace God's word with the pope's word.

So since I don't change one word in the bible, my conscience is clear. It's the catholics who have to worry because the pope can do nothing for them on their deathbed. :wink:
 
biblecatholic said:
i guess you must not be informed on what it is to be infallible like the pope. he is infallible on matters of faith and morals in a declaration(the Holy Spirit protects him much like you believe He protects you)so if you are saying that we put the pope on par with God then you are saying that God is only right if He makes an official pronouncement on a matter of faith and morals nothing else which i hope you dont think. its much more reasonable to believe that God protects 1 person on just some matters than you and everyone else being infallible with your personal interpretation

ill take on each charge in a little bit

Untrue!!!

The Pope is BOUND by almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS of 'tradition'. There is NO WAY that He could 'start OVER' with NOTHING but Spirit INSPIRED understanding.

The clergy would NEVER accept a Pope that went AGAINST what has BEEN.

In other words; Let's say there came a Pope that RECOGNIZED falacy in the Church teachings, (like Martin Luther discovered). There is NO WAY that he would be ABLE to offer change in such a degree. For the REST of the clergy would oust him IF he tried.

Therefore YOUR Pope is UNABLE to be LED by the Spirit as I, for I have NOTHING to overcome but my 'self'. The Pope has a WHOLE WORLD full of clergy that he MUST agree with.

MEC
 
Heidi said:
So why do the catholics disobey Jesus and call their priests 'fathers" and the pope "Our Holy Father"?

Why do you subscribe to a doctrine that is nowhere found in the Bible? Where is Sola Scriptura?

Why do you follow a belief that is DENIED by the Bible? What does James said about Sola Fide?

When you can answer those questions, then you can make your accusations towards other people's beliefs. But if you can't even defend your own beliefs, you are in a sad state of affairs...

Check the beam, Heidi, check the beam in your eye....
 
Imagican said:
Untrue!!!

The Pope is BOUND by almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS of 'tradition'. There is NO WAY that He could 'start OVER' with NOTHING but Spirit INSPIRED understanding.

The clergy would NEVER accept a Pope that went AGAINST what has BEEN.

In other words; Let's say there came a Pope that RECOGNIZED falacy in the Church teachings, (like Martin Luther discovered). There is NO WAY that he would be ABLE to offer change in such a degree. For the REST of the clergy would oust him IF he tried.

Therefore YOUR Pope is UNABLE to be LED by the Spirit as I, for I have NOTHING to overcome but my 'self'. The Pope has a WHOLE WORLD full of clergy that he MUST agree with.

MEC

The tradition of 2,000 years of false teachings. :lol: That's quite a bit of false teachings. But I notice that you defend the pope over Jesus because the two disgaree with each other. So again, you proved my point that catholicism is a cult, pure and simply. ;-)
 
Sorry but I have scripture on my side. So it's you who can't be gotten through to. I don't buy the fact that the Catholics don't understand Matthew 1:25. The sentence is as simple as "But he didn't eat desert until he finished the main course." So it's a blatant lie that the bible doesn't say that Mary lost her virginity and the Catholics know it.

So I'm tired of listening to them pervert the gospel and what's sadder is that they could care less if they twist the verses to agree with the pope. That's why Jesus told us not to call anyone on earth Father because the catholics now replace God's word with the pope's word.

So since I don't change one word in the bible, my conscience is clear. It's the catholics who have to worry because the pope can do nothing for them on their deathbed.

You are only the one who doesn't understand Matthew 1:25 and you are putting things that aren't there. The first 1500 years of Christianity didn't believe this verse implied this and neither do I.

You are the only one perverting the gospel and are twisting verses with a preconceived notion to fit your own ideas. I don't twist verses at all I simply agree with how God wanted them to be interpreted. As for the "call no man father" you have continually refused to answer our question of if we can call our biological father, father and have not looked at the website I posted after about three or four times of asking you to respond. You certainly do change more than one word of the Bible. You removed 7 whole books!

The tradition of 2,000 years of false teachings. That's quite a bit of false teachings. But I notice that you defend the pope over Jesus because the two disgaree with each other. So again, you proved my point that catholicism is a cult, pure and simply.

So we have 2,00 years of false teaching, eh? I guess you best go throw away your Bible because the Church that put out the canon of the Bible is the Catholic Church and according to you it only has false teachings. You best stop believing the Trinity to because that is a teaching of the Catholic Church.

We defend the office of the Pope because CHRIST HIMSELF instituted it and you are disrespecting Christ by disrespecting the Church he started. Catholicism is not a cult.
 
reply

I have a couple of questions for Catholic's. Do you believe in the presense of God. Do you believe that God lives in you.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
No infallible one, it means she had no children, and if you had read anything about the Bible, you'd know that. From the time she was rebuffed by David for him displaying his repentance publically, which she as Saul's daughter didn't accept cause she thought it was undignified! The curse of barreness was imposed on her, and the loss of royal seed from Saul's line intermarring into David's!

And he who buried who? Well God personally buried Moses! What arrogance! What Ignorance! Haven't your traditions ever told you that the devil wanted Moses' body? And that no man was to know, desecrate or idolize his tomb?
what are you talking about.!!!!! i was saying if you use the word until throughout the scripture in the way heidi used it with Mary it makes no sense. you cant use until/till like this because then you would have to say that Michal had children when she was dead with that logic
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

The reasons I would offer you for this reasoning are the fact priests are celibate or suppose to be, which is never apart of God's plan
.
lets see what the bible says about this.matt 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

1 cor 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.(pauls not married)
1 cor 7:32-35I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairsâ€â€how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this worldâ€â€how he can please his wife 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this worldâ€â€how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

and there are many more

ÃÂoppleganger said:
The fact that the term cardinals comes from the priests of ancient Rome.
you do know that pagans use the word god? by your logic you must not use this word, what about the word hermeneutics do you use this...uhoh if you do, its about the greek god hermes was zeus' messenger to enlighten humans.
ÃÂoppleganger said:
The fact that the RC church inorder to bring everyone they can into there fold, mixed paganism and religion into one order. This is even present today, in various forms or another of iconclastic imagery and worship. Not to mention some of the bizarre goings on by Half-Catholic Half-Traditional religions in various parts of the world such as Africa, Haiti, South America and parts of Asia. Let alone the Pope who has ... well lets not go there ... If we were to add in the views of Malachi Martin or a contemporary of the current Pope Hans Kung, who probably could have been a pope, well thats another matter too. Not to mention the Infalliblity and Transubstantiation issues. Or if we were to go back in time, well, it wouldn't be pretty, Anyways. Peace. Good article though.
maybe you should read something besides jack chick
 
First Of All Let Me Say, This has Gotten Out Of Hand. I'm gonna address the subject as politely and respectfully as I can. But Truth can be a two edged sword. If you listen fine if not so be it.

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this worldâ€â€how he can please his wife and his interests are divided

While this true, admirable, and sometimes thrust upon us. The Jewish priesthood was commanded against such things. I could find many verses to support my point. But, I think its time for cooler heads to prevail. Like some of you have said, anyone can find a verse and use it to there own advantage. I know what I said was hard to take. I could go on and on with this and that. Making point after point only to be rebuffed. God also forbid, the hierachial systems that is inherent in the RC church, like he did at Antioch. My point is there have been many fallible priests, who don't have there mind on God, but authority, power, etc.. The Child Molestations in the RC is proof of this. The Fact That the Vatican has power and uses it to shadow its priests from guilt, by use of there power and position, is also evidence of this.

you do know that pagans use the word god? by your logic you must not use this word, what about the word hermeneutics do you use this...uhoh if you do, its about the greek god hermes was zeus' messenger to enlighten humans.

So, God's a generic term. In fact The latin word for God is Dios. Dios is representative of the Sun and Mithras. Dios day is Sunday, which is why the Catholics moved, the Sabbath to Sunday. I also have a great deal of knowledge about mythology and pagan culture in ancient times. Rome was always happy to add another god to there pantheon. The Word "Goth" as In Ostro and Visigoth's were the people who sacked Rome? Which means God's people!

In legal terms your using false logic.
A Complex Question Argument: Where Two unrelated points are joined as a single idea.

The Relativist Fallacy: Where a person rejects a claim by asserting that the claim might be true for others but is not for him/her.

The Who is to say Arguement? By affecting an argument with a skeptical attitude using rhetoric. This line of questioniong is supposed to “prove†that there is no way to decide whether any position or view is better than another. By assuming that the truth is unknowable.

Non Sequitor Inconsistencies: Asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true.

Genetic Fallacy: A perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself.

Anyways thats enough of that I could go on but you get my point, I hope.

maybe you should read something besides jack chick
This is an ad hominem attack on the the character and beliefs of the writer

If I was to say that I would be edited, and warned, I've been edited for just using theses characters ! @ # $ % & * ?

So I'm assuming that, Catholic voodoo. The Fact That Mardi Gras Is the Celebration of Lent (a pagan holiday), so everyone can party. That Malachi Martin who was the Lord protector of Popes and one of the most trusted men in Rome. That Hans Kung a brilliant philosopher who as an ex-priest is critical of Rome and her policies. That the illogical stance of Transubstatiation and Papal Infalliblity. Are not to be considered valid arguments that something is not a miss?

It must be said that all scripture was oral before it was written. All of it was tradition.

Well The Jew's where meticulous, at transcribing his word as the Lord commanded them. The Septuigant is proof of that. Also the fact that after 1000's of years, scrolls dug up in Qumram vary very little from the text we have today, puts this last statement in doubt.
 
wavy said:
It must be said that all scripture was oral before it was written. All of it was tradition.

It was CERTAINLY 'stated' BEFORE written, but it WAS written BEFORE the 'chance' for MUCH tradition to be 'created'. And there is NOTHING 'wrong' with tradition, SO LONG as it is 'tradition AS TRUTH'. It's the tradition that was 'man-made' that 'gets in the way'.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
It was CERTAINLY 'stated' BEFORE written, but it WAS written BEFORE the 'chance' for MUCH tradition to be 'created'. And there is NOTHING 'wrong' with tradition, SO LONG as it is 'tradition AS TRUTH'. It's the tradition that was 'man-made' that 'gets in the way'.

MEC

So then we should follow the tradition of the Mosai law just like the Jews do. Is that correct? :o You need to read what Jesus told the Jews about putting tradition before God's word.

And if the Catholics really follow tradition, then why are the popes not executing people today who disagree with the Catholic church and selling forgivness for money? :o
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
Making point after point only to be rebuffed. God also forbid, the hierachial systems that is inherent in the RC church, like he did at Antioch. My point is there have been many fallible priests, who don't have there mind on God, but authority, power, etc.. The Child Molestations in the RC is proof of this. The Fact That the Vatican has power and uses it to shadow its priests from guilt, by use of there power and position, is also evidence of this.
first the percent of catholic priest who have done this is between .07% and 1.3% protestant ministers are 1.5% and 2.1% and teachers are 33%.... yes we have judas' just as Jesus does and just as you do. God did not ordain anarchy like a free for all

ÃÂoppleganger said:
So, God's a generic term. In fact The latin word for God is Dios. Dios is representative of the Sun and Mithras. Dios day is Sunday, which is why the Catholics moved, the Sabbath to Sunday. I also have a great deal of knowledge about mythology and pagan culture in ancient times. Rome was always happy to add another god to there pantheon. The Word "Goth" as In Ostro and Visigoth's were the people who sacked Rome? Which means God's people!
many words are used by different cultures and religions. yes we changed the day to sunday we put the bible together we defined the trinity. im assuming you're a JW?
ÃÂoppleganger said:
Are not to be considered valid arguments that something is not a miss?
and what year did the Jws appear?
 
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