Which One is the Good Guy?

[bibleberean]

 

[stovebolts]

Neither, and as this picture is depicted,
1. The Palestine soldier should not place a child in front of them for cover.
2. The Isreal soldier should not shoot at children, regardless.
3. Both nations should learn how to come to a peaceful agreement.

 

[handy]

Good answer!

 

[bibleberean]

Israel has given the cruel and ruthless Palistinian leadership land for peace and were rocketed and attacked for their trouble. Israel though far from perfect is the nation I support.

There will never be peace in Israel until the Lord Jesus Christ returns. There will at some point be an appearance of peace.

I support Israel over the "Palestinians".

Israel does not as a policy target children. Palistinians target Israeli children as a policy. Women and children die in war. We need to get a grip on reality.

Israel should not give up any part of Jerusalem or one inch of ground for peace. It won't bring peace but will embolden the Muslims to continue their assault on the Jews.

The Israeli soldier is the "good guy" in my opinion.

You can't make peace with insane people.

The Israeli soldier has placed himself in front of a child to protect it. The Pali soldier hides behind the child for cover.

God bless Israel!

 

[Drew]

I support Israel over the "Palestinians".

You may have a case for this position - I don't know.

However, I do want to express agreement with the following position put forward by British theologian NT Wright:

One of the specific things on which the New Testament insists, again and again, is that in the life, death and supremely the resurrection of Jesus the promised new age has dawned. The return from exile has happened. ‘All the promises of God’, says Paul in 2 Corinthians 1.20, ‘find their “yes†in him.’ This is in fact the great Return, even though it doesn’t look like people had thought it would. Instead of Israel as a political entity emerging from political exile, we are invited in the gospel to see Israel-in-person, the true king, emerging from the exile of death itself into God’s new day. That is the underlying rationale for the mission to the Gentiles: God has finally done for Israel what he was going to do for Israel, so now it’s time for the Gentiles to come in. That, too, is the underlying rationale for the abolition of the food laws and the holy status of the land of Israel: a new day has dawned in God’s purposes, and the symbols of the previous day are put aside, not because they were a bad thing, now happily rejected, but because they were the appropriate preparatory stages in God’s plan, and have now done their work. When I became a man, I put away childish things. Lift up your eyes, says Paul in Romans 8, and see how the promises to Abraham are to be fulfilled: not simply by a single race coming eventually to possess a single holy strip of turf, but by the liberation of the whole cosmos, with the beneficiaries, the inheritors of the promise, being a great number from every race and tribe and tongue, baptized and believing in Jesus Christ and indwelt by his Spirit.

To suggest, therefore, that as Christians we should support the state of Israel because it is the fulfilment of prophecy is, in a quite radical way, to cut off the branch on which we are sitting.

 

[stovebolts]

Robert,
While I understand your position, I would only to add that two wrongs don't make a right and just because you can justify something, doesn't always make it right.

Shooting at children for any reason is wrong, regardless if sombody placed them in front of them for cover or they stood in front of a soldier purposfully.

Often, as I've found both in life and as a Christian is that it's not always so much about what is placed in front of you, (like a child), but rather how we respond to what's in front of us. It's called choice.

Isreal has the right to protect themselves, don't get me wrong. But to purposfully shoot at their enemy when a child is being used as cover as is I believe erroneously depicted in your picture, is simply wrong and sets the wrong example to the world.

Jesus used the analogy of, "Turning the other cheek". I don't believe this story to be one of submission, but rather, when you get behind the text it truly is a statment of equal rights and fairness. Thus, it's more about how we respond and not as much about how we've been treated.

Jesus also said to be shrewd as serpents, and anyone that knows a serpents nature knows that a serpent will always sacrafice their body to save it's head. In this case, Christ is our head and we should be called to sacrafice ourselves, to crucify ourselves daily for the sake of the head.

Peace.

 

[Dunamite]

Israel has given the cruel and ruthless Palistinian leadership land for peace and were rocketed and attacked for their trouble. Israel though far from perfect is the nation I support.

There will never be peace in Israel until the Lord Jesus Christ returns. There will at some point be an appearance of peace.

I support Israel over the "Palestinians".

Israel does not as a policy target children. Palistinians target Israeli children as a policy. Women and children die in war. We need to get a grip on reality.

Israel should not give up any part of Jerusalem or one inch of ground for peace. It won't bring peace but will embolden the Muslims to continue their assault on the Jews.

The Israeli soldier is the "good guy" in my opinion.

You can't make peace with insane people.

The Israeli soldier has placed himself in front of a child to protect it. The Pali soldier hides behind the child for cover.

God bless Israel!

Are all your answers so black and white?

The Palestinian problem is not a simple conflict between Palestinians and Jews. Many Jews are peace loving and want to end the cycle of violence and hatred. The problem has many dimensions to it and to simplify it is not to do justice to it. This is not a comic book with simple lines and colors. It is a rich tapestry with threads that go back centuries with lots of nuances and shades of color.

There are extremists on both sides. The Zionists inflame the situation and so do the Palestinian extremists in Hezbollah or Hamas. Most Jews are not Zionists, many are not even religious. Most Palestinians do not belong to Hamas.

Zionists do not want negotiated peace. They want an all out war where one side gets it all. Hamas wants the same thing, except they want to be the victor. Compromise is not in the best interest of either side. Hamas or Hezbollah wants to speak for all Palestinians in the same way that Zionists want to dictate the terms to Israelis.

Israel uses conventional weaponry and warfare, mostly because of the aid it receives from the U.S. Without this aid Israel would have to resort to methods it has used in the past. They did not use suicide bombers, but they used guerrilla tactics on civilian populations. There are many example of Israeli atrocities. Many of Israel's leaders were commandos who massacred civilians. They can now condemn those tactics because we have given them other means.

Palestinians fight back with what is available to them. We call them terrorists because they are refugees without an army, navy or air force. I am not trying to excuse terrorism. I am just pointing out that it goes both ways. It is easy to forget that.

Israel has a problem which they will have to face sooner or later. Many Palestinians were displaced. Some still hold legal title to property inside Israel. They want to be able to return obviously. This is compounded with the problem of Palestinians who live inside Israel. Right now many of them live outside of the barrier in South African style Bantu ghettos. If they had equal rights then Jews would be a minority inside Israel. As long as the conflict continues then Israel can stall and try to increase the numbers with immigration in the vague hope of reversing this trend. The problem is that Palestinians have bigger families, so that situation is worsening.

As you can see getting a negotiated peace settlement is very complicated. That is why I do not like the cartoon image which is simplistic, despite the positive tone of the writer.

I disagree strongly with comments that Israel does not target children. There are many examples of children being targeted by Israeli soldiers. International witnesses have reported this many times. The Israeli army faces a similar problem that American forces occupying Iraq face. You cannot tell the good guys from the bad guys, so inevitably some good guys get killed. They call it collateral damage. American media does not cover these outrages. You don't have to read Al Jazeera. Read the Christian Science Monitor or the Guardian for a month and you will have a radically different outlook. Israel has boasted publicly that they can kill any story on CNN that offends them. Fox sends directives to its reporters telling it what news to cover and how to slant it. These have been leaked to the public and reported on British media, but American media won't cover it for obvious reasons. I get all of the American networks here in Canada and I can tell that there is a big difference in media world wide. American media is largely introspective and consumed with domestic issues. The little attention given to internation news is cartoonish as the comic above. It is very brief, black and white, and value laden. The good guy/ bad guy view that you espouse is all too common in your media.

The internet is a great equalizer. It allows those who care to take the time time look outside and to see things from the perspective of others. We do not have to agree with them, but it is at least worth considering that there are other ideas and opinions besides our own and that sometimes we can learn from other cultures and groups. When we always look inward we become insular and ethnocentric.

There is no good guy or bad guy. Palestinians are just like us. They love their children. They want them to have a better future. Likewise, Jews are just like us. They love their children and want a better future for them. Why can't they both be good and bad at the same time? Aren't most people?

Blessings,
Dunamite

 

[handy]

I agree that the whole Middle East mess cannot be brought down to a goodguy/badguy cartoon. I believe it was Golda Meir who said that there will never be peace, "As long as we teach our children to hate our enemy more than we love peace."

But, as much as I'm in no way capable of judging the hearts and minds of the people in the Middle East, I have to admit it is very hard to reconcile this:

Palestinians are just like us. They love their children. They want them to have a better future. Likewise, Jews are just like us. They love their children and want a better future for them.

With this:

At some point, common sense must trump political correctness. THAT IS NOT LOVE!!!!

 

[destiny]

Right now the United States and other nations are playing with fire by burdening themselves with Israel..
Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Those who burden themselves and gather against Israel will be cut to pieces.

 

[bibleberean]

I agree that we are "burdening ourselves" by forcing Israel to the peace table with people that hate Israel.

We as a nation should support Israel. If Israel which is our greatest ally and the "apple of God's eye" gives up one inch of land this is what will happen to the Jews.

We must never abandon or stop supporting Israel because...

 

[stovebolts]

Two wrongs don't make a right... This is a picture of an Israeli soldier pointing his rifle at a child... Who's going to make the first move toward real justice? Who's going to set the example? What we have is an avalanche of cause and effect based on knee jerk reactions in the Middle East.

Hebron: "Seasons"

I listen to the sparrows chirping outside the window and imagine my backyard in Minnesota, the leaves turning red and yellow, the apples ripening, falling, the rusty colored chrysanthemums enduring the ever-cooler mornings. A deep peace fills me, momentarily driving out the tension of living in an occupied land. For a moment, I am five thousand miles away.

A plane roars over my head and I remember that it is not flying passengers to the Minneapolis airport, but possibly heading on a mission to bomb Palestinian civilians in Gaza. I hear cars on the road and know that they are Israelis driving down an Israeli-only road in the center of Hebron.

I hear the call to prayer from the mosque and wonder if the people going to pray will be detained and searched before they are allowed to enter the Old City to worship.

I look out the window, barred to keep rocks from breaking it, and see the barbed wire of a military installation crowning the building opposite.

I sigh and return to my work. I am not enjoying the crisp days of a midwestern autumn. The days here are still hot. The season is the Muslim Ramadan and the Jewish Succoth. The signs of the season are not the turning of the leaves but the closing of gates, the appearance of metal detectors on the road to Friday prayers, the flocks of Jewish tourists parading through the streets of this Palestinian city. For me it is a season of sorrow at the oppression of innocents.

Today I will walk the streets of Hebron and witness young Palestinian men being detained for hours. I will hear Israeli soldiers spew hatred towards "Arabs." I will listen to the stories of Palestinian families whose homes have been invaded, their possessions thrown about, their men beaten or imprisoned.

I breathe air heavy with the weight of injustice. The sparrows call outside the window. I remember that I am here, in Palestine, living under occupation.

What you see above, leads to this...

 

[Drew]

If Israel which is our greatest ally and the "apple of God's eye"...[/img]

I suggest that a proper understanding of the Scriptures leads to the conclusion that national Israel is not any more the apple of God's eye than any other ethnic group of people. Consider 2 Corinthians 1:20

For as many as are the promises of God, in Him (Jesus) they are yes;

Jesus fulfills all the promises - He is the climax of the covenant and the "promises about the land" turn out to have meant something else entirely.

One of the great facts about the gospel is that the promises made to Israel have been fulfilled in an unexpected way. Reading the Scriptures, the Jews quite understandably expected political restoration from their exile - "getting their land back". Instead, God's promises in this regard have been fulfilled in a strange and wonderful way - the return from exile has turned out to be a return from the exile of death and sin, the "land" has turned out to be all creation (Romans 8:18 and following) and "Israel" has turned out to be a worldwide family made up of those circumcized in the heart and not in the flesh.

All the promises to Israel have been fulfilled in this wonderful way - there is no more sense in which God "favours" the Jews over anybody else in respect to "land and politics".

Bad theology leads to bad life decisions, and in this case it will lead to bad policy if we see national Israel as being somehow priveleged in the eyes of God. That time has passed as Paul makes abundantly clear in the above statement from 2 Corinthians as well as things he says in Romans and Galatians, if not elsewhere.

 

[stovebolts]

Good points Drew.

I'm reminded of what started all this in the first place... Abram and Ishmeal... In other words, when Abram and Sari decided that they were going to "help" God. Isaac came when God was ready and if we try to speed the process, we just create chaos.

I wanted to post this article so at least we can see what the Palestines are saying and how they look at all of this. If we don't take what they are saying into consideration, how can we ever hope to fill the gap between us?

May 19, 2004--Today Israeli missiles and tanks fired on a peaceful demonstration of largely Palestinian children who were protesting the demolition of their homes and escalating assaults against their people by Tel Aviv's murderous apartheid regime. Israeli media are reporting that at least 22 Palestinian women and children were killed and 50 more were injured, mostly young people.

A Palestinian doctor told reporters that a "state of emergency all over Gaza Strip hospitals" has been ordered by President Yassir Arafat.

This murderous campaign of ethnic cleansing continues unabated because of the full support given Sharon by George W. Bush. Both of these war criminals use the pretext of "fighting terror" to justify the state terror they are unleashing against Palestinians and Iraqis in their respective criminal occupations. But in Gaza and the West Bank as well as Iraq, it is defenseless civilians who are being slaughtered by Israeli and US forces.

Sharon and Bush--the true axis of evil on this planet.

It's time for the Israeli and US working classes to throw these gangsters in the dock and try them for war crimes. Along the way, we can fight for socialist governments that would put human needs and peace before profits and war.

The whole world is waiting.

May 18, 2004--Israel continues to thumb its nose at humanity and international law with its murderous assault on the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza. Israeli forces have killed at least 19 Palestinians since its latest offensive began, including an 11-year-old boy and his 15-year-old sister. Yesterday, Israel tanks, bulldozers and gunship helicopters sealed off Rafah from the rest of the Gaza Strip, causing panic among Palestinians trapped there.

Since last week the Israeli army has demolished over 100 Palestinian homes, leaving thousands homeless. At least 32 Palestinians and 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in intense fighting. Israel has been demolishing entire neighborhoods in the Occupied Territories for years, justifying these outrages on the grounds of self defense because suspected Palestinian fighters lived there. But collective punishment is a violation of international law, from Gaza to Falluja.

Amnesty International just release a report charging Israel with war crimes for destroying more than 3,000 Palestinian homes over the last three years. The report called these demolitions "grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention and are war crimes."

One of the report's authors, Donatella Rovera, said that "In vast majority of cases, it's wanton destruction. It's unnecessary, disproportionate, unjustified and deliberate."

Bush gave Washington's stamp of approval to Sharon's latest war crimes with the obligatory caveat that they were "troubling." [Translation: we're taking international heat for this, but you do what you have to do to get the job done.]

The Village Voice's Rich Perlstein writes this week that National Security Council Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams, the Iran/Contra convicted liar, met recently with a Christian fundamentalist outfit named Apostolic Congress to assure them that Bush's endorsement of Sharon's Gaza pullout was in keeping with their political and theological agenda.

These Christian ultrarightists expressed opposition to any Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, fearing it may lead to a Palestinian state, which would upset their little theological apple cart. These fundamentalist fanatics believe that unless Israel stays intact and David's temple rebuilt, Jesus Christ won't make his grand return in the Second Coming.

Abrams assured the Apostolic Congress that "the Gaza Strip had no significant Biblical influence such as Joseph's tomb or Rachel's tomb and therefore is a piece of land that can be sacrificed for the cause of peace."

Three weeks after Abrams' pow-wow with the Christian zealots, Bush reversed Washington's decades-long policy and backed Tel Aviv's sovereignty over portions of the West Bank in exchange for Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza.

 

[bibleberean]

Here is a video that will help people grow in understanding and get the proper perspective on Israel and it's God given place in the world. Those who take the time to watch this with a prayerful open heart will be blessed.

Part One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsOV7wZ8kVo

Part Two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u77eltvhBWo

There is no negotiating with people who love death and encourage their children to die as "martyrs" in suicide bombings. Palistinian school books teach that Jews are the off spring of "Apes and Pigs".

 

[stovebolts]

There is no negotiating with people who love death and encourage their children to die as "martyrs" in suicide bombings. Palistinian school books teach that Jews are the off spring of "Apes and Pigs".

What you say may be true Robert, but how do you suggest we respond?
In other words, what do you believe we should do about it and how should we look at these children that are being taught from the time that they are able to speak that Israel and America is evil?

It’s all fine and well to say, “That person is insane and has hate oozing out of their soulâ€Â, but again, how are we to respond?

May I propose that when we strike back in like form, that we become no better than they.

When I see a mother holding their mutilated child, a lump forms in my throat. No mother should have to experience the death of their child due to violence. When I look at the photo you posted earlier of a mother strapping bombs onto her child, I think to myself, perhaps it’s better if this child dies before he grows up to hate as deeply as his parents. But then, I’ve really got to ask how a mother could be so convicted that she would come to the place where she could send her innocent child off to die and the answer that keeps coming back is this.

The Middle East is seeped in hatred, anger and rage. It’s the whole, “Look what you’ve done to my family†and for many, it’s about revenge that’s stirred by injustice. I don’t care how you or anyone justifies the death of innocent civilians, when it comes right down to brass tacks, it’s wrong and I don’t care what religion you call yourself.

Speaking of true religion, what does the bible have to say about religion? This is what I’ve found that scripture has to say about true religion.

James 1:26-27 If any man among you seems to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Tell me now; does our Bible make a distinction between the widow of a Muslim and the widow of a Christian? Yes, I know that James was speaking to his Jewish brethren, but our bibles also teach that mankind was created in the image of God and thus, humanity is precious in the eyes of God. Furthermore, it was / is a Jewish belief that the breath of God (YHVH) was present in every human.

http://www.ohalah.org/seidenberg1.htm

…So Yod-Heh is the in-breath and Vav-Heh is the out-breath…

The name of YHVH is alluded to in the structure of the human being, from top to bottom and from bottom to top. How so? The head is like a Yod. The torso is like a Vav. The ten fingers, five on each hand, are the two Heh's. Also, the ten toes, five on each foot, are the two Heh's [and part of a second YHVH]. (Generations of Man, The House of Israel I, p.114, translated by Miles Krassen)

YHVH has been called the God of the oppressed and the God that hears the cries of his people. Israel was called out to be a light to the nations and to be a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6). Will God hear my cries and the cries of others for this insanity to end? Or will he hear the cries of those who perpetuate the violence?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

The insanity needs to end. Who will take the first step?

 

[stovebolts]

I challenge anyone to look, I mean really look at the photo's I've posted and just thing for a moment that these are real people. People that God created in HIS own image. People that God loves and sent his Son to die for.

Take a good hard look and think, "Why am I so lucky to not have experienced any of that?"

and then ask the bigger question, "Why did God give me the talents he's given me".

 

[Drew]

Perhaps this is not intentional on BB's part, but have readers not noticed how often the images he is portraying do not show the faces of those he seeks to villify? When the "enemy" is portrayed as faceless, this legitimizes our tendency to see them as monsters. Check out the images for yourself, the Muslims are largely shown with covered faces or from a perspective where the face cannot be seen.

I suggest this is not a coincidence.

 

[stovebolts]

Again Drew, great observation and attention to detail.

If we hide their faces, they aint real people... isn't it amazing all of the little psychological tricks satan will play just to lessen the life of a human being.

 

[bibleberean]

How the gullible west is being deceived by Palistinians.

Israel does not have a policy of deliberately targeting women and children but the West is buying into Islamic propaganda.

Watch this video on how easy it is to deceive Americans. I support Israel. They are decent people surrounded by and live with an evil people who wish to wipe them off the face of the earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

Israel gives Arabs who live in Israel the right to practice their faith. That is not true in Gaza or the West Bank. Arabs can vote and hold public office in Israel. That is not the case in Gaza or the West Bank. Jews do not strap bombs to their children and gleefully send them to their death.

Here are some very cool things about what Israel has done. The Palestininas receive more donated money per capita than any other people in the world and yet they live in absolute squaler. This isn't because they are repressed. It is because their leaders squander their money and put much of it into their personal bank accounts. The Jew has always been the scapegoat. They have been in the past and they are now in the present.

I urge anyone following this thread to watch the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6K08RFRQs

For all it's faults the USA ,Israel and England are the most nobel countries on earth. I don't buy anti-israel propaganda any more than I buy into anti-U.S. propaganda.

As for me and mine...

 

[Drew]

For all it's faults the USA ,Israel and England are the most nobel countries on earth.

Get serious.

You will, of course, not be able to provide a shred of evidence to support this ridiculous claim.

Pay attention, dear reader, I guarantee that you will see nothing that actually supports this assertion. You may see a lot of stuff, but BB will never make any kind of case that the USA and England are any more noble than a bucketload of countries on this terrestial ball.