Which One is the Good Guy?

[bibleberean]

Chapter 3: Jew and Gentile Clarence Larkin RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

The Scriptures treat of "Three Classes" of Persons. The "Jews," the "Gentiles," and the "Church of God." The Jews and the Gentiles are distinct from each other, while the Church of God is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, but not as Jews or Gentiles but as a "New Body." All the human race that are not Jews are Gentiles. The Jews date back to Abraham, and became a distinct and separate nation at the Exodus. The most of the Old Testament is taken up with their history. They are an earthly people, while the "Church of God" are a heavenly people. Like the Jews the "Church of God" had a beginning. It began at the "Day of Pentecost" and will end chronologically at the Second Coming of Christ. At the present time the Jews are, as a nation, "sidetracked." When the "Church of God" is taken out of the world, the Jews will again be restored to their own land and become the "Head of the Nations." Nationally the Gentiles now govern the earth. This is what the Scriptures speak of as the "Times of the Gentiles." Lu 21:24.

 

[Drew]

Chapter 3: Jew and Gentile Clarence Larkin RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

The Scriptures treat of "Three Classes" of Persons. The "Jews," the "Gentiles," and the "Church of God." The Jews and the Gentiles are distinct from each other, while the Church of God is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, but not as Jews or Gentiles but as a "New Body." All the human race that are not Jews are Gentiles. The Jews date back to Abraham, and became a distinct and separate nation at the Exodus. The most of the Old Testament is taken up with their history. They are an earthly people, while the "Church of God" are a heavenly people. Like the Jews the "Church of God" had a beginning. It began at the "Day of Pentecost" and will end chronologically at the Second Coming of Christ. At the present time the Jews are, as a nation, "sidetracked." When the "Church of God" is taken out of the world, the Jews will again be restored to their own land and become the "Head of the Nations." Nationally the Gentiles now govern the earth. This is what the Scriptures speak of as the "Times of the Gentiles." Lu 21:24.

This is not really a correct characterization of what the Scriptures say.

If one reads Paul carefully one will see that he argues that God never made covenental promises to ethnic Israel. In Romans, Paul goes to great extremes to make the point that while there is indeed an "ethnic Israel", this specific Israel was simply not the recipient of the covenant promises - it is Israel according to the Spirit that has always been the people to whom these promises were made. I will not repeat my previous post about how Paul makes this case in Romans 9.

Not to mention Romans 4 where Paul asserts

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code

Now I want to be clear. Paul is no idiot, he knows that ethnic Israel is indeed an "entity". But he clearly argues in Romans that the covenant promises are not now - nor ever were - given to that Israel. Instead they are given to "Israel according to the Spirit.

I do not think there is any Scriptural basis whatsoever for asserting that Jew - Gentile distinction exists past the climax of the covenant - the advent of Jesus.

Paul strongly makes this case in Galatians:

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Jew-Gentile distinction has dissolved into nothingness. There are no special priveleges for ethnic Israel - no plan that God will restore them to their land. How could there be if we are take Paul at his word?

We are one family. We share a common inheritance. No one is promised Palestine over anyone else.

 

[bibleberean]

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:[/b]

Paul speaking to the church about Jews and being ignorant.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they (the Jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their (the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren[/b (the church), that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

The above verse is written to the church about Jacob (ISRAEL). The church has already been saved. Israel is in darkness until Jesus returns to save them and turn them away from ungodliness.

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their (Israel's) sins.

The church is an espoused virgin. Israel is a cast off wife. Big difference.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your (the church) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The Jews have rejected the Gospel and are enemies (for the moment) but as touching the election they are beloved.

The patch of real estate called Israel is where Christ is going to return. He is going to physically put his feet down on the Mount of Olives and rescue Israel.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Christ was standing on the Mount of Olives in acts chapter 1 and He will return to the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This is the time of "Jacob's trouble".

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Israel is now in unbelief. But as Paul explains to the believing church that they are not to look down upon the Jews because they will be restored when they believe.

 

[bibleberean]

The following excerpt is from the Jewish Virtual Library

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... f18.html#a

"MYTH

"Israel discriminates against its Arab citizens."

FACT

"Israel is one of the most open societies in the world. Out of a population of 6.7 million, about 1.3 million  20 percent of the population  are non-Jews (approximately 1.1 million Muslims, 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).1

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice. "

 

[Drew]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren[/b (the church), that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

The above verse is written to the church about Jacob (ISRAEL). The church has already been saved. Israel is in darkness until Jesus returns to save them and turn them away from ungodliness.

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their (Israel's) sins.

The church is an espoused virgin. Israel is a cast off wife. Big difference.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your (the church) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The Jews have rejected the Gospel and are enemies (for the moment) but as touching the election they are beloved.

The patch of real estate called Israel is where Christ is going to return. He is going to physically put his feet down on the Mount of Olives and rescue Israel.

I do not believe that this argument is really correct scripturally. I do not believe that the scriptures teach that there will be a be mass conversion of Jews at some point in the future. And I certainly do not believe that we should "favour" Israel in any sense in political matters because we think that we need to get them back into their homeland as some kind of pre-condition for this "mass" salvation of the Jews.

My argument will take more than one post.

In 25b, Paul refers to a hardening of Israel. What is this hardening all about? As I have argued in other places, following the arguments of NT Wright, Paul believes that Israel as a nation is "acting out the Christ pattern" and the hardening of Israel is sovereignly caused to come about so that the power of sin can be "accumulated" onto Israel before it is then transferred to Jesus' flesh and there condemned (see first few verses of Romans 8). As per the potter account in Romans 9, which has nothing to do with pre-destination of individuals, Israel has been elected to "be cast away for the sin of the world" - following the pattern of her Messiah, so that the world can be saved. In 11:15, Paul makes this point yet again when he writes:

"if their (i.e. Israel's) rejection is the reconciliation of the world,...."

Why is all this material relevant? Because it establishes the proper context in which to disambiguate a critical world in verse 26 - the word "so" as in "so all Israel will be saved". "So" in english can mean "then", but it can also mean "in that way". I suggest that the proper reading here is "in that way" and not "then". My justification for this choice really lies in argument for coherence with other stuff in Romans, in particular the stuff I have outlined in the preceding paragraphs. But it also makes more sense when we consider that in 11:26, the text says the deliverer will come from Zion and not to Zion. I believe that in the quoted material above, BB is saying the opposite when he writes that "Israel is in darkness until Jesus returns to save them". This reading does not square with verse 26, since the BB reading has Jesus returning to Zion - how could this be a deliverer coming from Zion?

An example of how "so" can mean "in that way" is this: "read the instructions so you will assemble the desk properly". The word "so" has a clear connotation of "in that way - by reading the instuctions - the desk will be assembled properly".

Now, for the controversial bit. If we read "Israel" in verse 26 as "Israel according the Spirit" - the re-defined Israel of Paul, the "true" Israel if you will, we basically have the following as what Paul intended his readers to extract out of 11:26a:

"The hardening of "national" Israel (as I, Paul, have already talked about in chapter 9 and in verse 15 of chapter 11) is the way by which (in other words "so" means "in this way" and not simply "then") "true" Israel - Israel according to the Spirit, with both Jews and Gentiles - will be saved."

You may well object that I portray Paul as referring to national Israel in verse 25 and referring to a different set of people, namely"true" Israel in verse 26. Guilty as charged. But if you are going to find fault with my argument on that grounds, you need to point a finger of accusation at Paul as well, since he does precisely the same thing in the early part of Romans 9, where he talks about "national" Israel in one breath and then tallks about "true" Israel in the next:

For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children

In any event, to argue that the Romans 11:25 and following passage is about how Jesus will return to save national Israel simply does not work in light of the fact that in verse 26b, the text refers to a deliverer coming from Zion, not to Zion as would have to be the case for such an argument to work.

More later....

 

[stovebolts]

What it really comes down to is this... The rest is simply justification...

It's about choice and when we put ourselves to the bottom of the pit and every choice is a bad choice, yet one doesn't seem as bad as the other, then the lessor bad choice is sadly called the good choice. Though we call it the 'good' choice, in reality it's only perspective that elludes to it being 'good' in any sense of the word.

There is nothing good about shooting at a child even if it's the best bad choice one can make. It's still a bad choice and again, let me repeat myself. The rest is just justification.

This begs the question, what is the next step? How do we deal with these tragic situations? As Christians, what does God's word tell us?

 

[Dunamite]

It is strange to see Christians line up in the same way that the opposing sides do in the Middle East. We should not be polarized on this issue. Jesus wants peace. Peace cannot happen as long as there will be winners and losers. Any talk from Christians which shows partiality thwarts peace. If our talk thwarts peace then it is not from Christ.

Violence is bad whether it is Palestinian or Israeli. Peace can never be achieved through violent struggle. This is the lesson learned from history. Violence breeds hatred and resentment. It is only a matter of time before the losers retaliate with more violence.

The big problem with the refugee crisis in the Middle East is that they offer no hope of a better life. They are fertile grounds for breeding hatred and it is easy to find people willing to blow themselves up when they have no hope of a good life in this world. They are promised a quick exit to paradise and the knowledge that their families will be looked after. Their own death seems inconsequential to them because they had no future in the refugee camp.

Also both the Jewish and Arab mindset is based on exacting an eye for an eye revenge. Revenge is a dish best served cold to the Arabs. They are willing to wait to exact revenge for as long as it takes. Jews on the other hand prefer a quick and thorough retaliation.

Christianity is based on love. Jesus spoke out against exacting an eye for an eye. He said that we cannot even hate our enemies. To see us taking sides in this dispute is unChristian. Our personal views should not really come into it. As Christians we are to rise above hatred and resentment. We are to show people a better way.

Unfortunately partisan postings on either side do not contribute to brokering peace. America is hated by Arabs for being partisan in the Middle East. They have long resented America's siding with Israel. Of course they will seek allies of their own and this has led them to get help from Syria and other Arab nations. This has polarized the Middle East situation even more.

Our response is to criticize them for aligning themselves with extremists which causes us to give even more support to Israel when in fact it was our partisan support that gave them no one else to turn to. America does not learn from history. Fidel Castro was a liberal who turned to communism after America spurned him when he overthrew the corrupt government of Batista. When Fidel needed help to rebuild the nation Russia offered him what America refused.

We feed the fires of hatred when we take sides with those who preach intolerance and revenge. We serve nobody's interest but Satan's when we fan the flames that would consume this world.

We need to understand both sides if we are to wade into this conflict. We should stay neutral if we want to promote peace because neither side will listen to what we have to say if they think that we are partial.

America has a role to play in the Middle East, but don't expect them to listen if Americans are going to take sides. And Americans should not be surprised if Arabs want harm to come to Americans as a result of their being partisan. If they see Israel as oppressing them and America is supplying the arms for doing it then they will want to bypass Israel and strike directly at America should the opportunity present itself.

This is entirely avoidable. As long as Americans are blinded to the plight of Palestinians then the government will only too happy to oblige Israel with more aid, thus exacerbating the situation.

Terrorism is only half of the equation and only half of the problem.

 

[Veritas]

This begs the question, what is the next step? How do we deal with these tragic situations? As Christians, what does God's word tell us?

To help!

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matthew 25:35-40

 

[bibleberean]

I am extremely polarized on the situation and glad to be that way.

"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."

"The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge."

"The Jews are not promoting brain-washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims."

"The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics."

"The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels."

If the Palestinians who receive more economic aid per capita than any other people on earth put their money to work to improve themselves then maybe they would prosper like the Jews.

Also, Israel wasn't out in the streets cheering when 9/11 took place the Palestinians were.

I know who I support. I don't support the infidel hating Palestinians. I support Israel.

"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."

Watch these videos and use common sense...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XEkJY6 ... re=related




The Jews don't have the economic strength of petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the question.

 

[Drew]

BB:

No slogan or cartoon can capture the complexity of the real situation on the ground in the Middle East. I offer the following from NT Wright:

Centuries of European anti-Semitism came to their awful climax in the Holocaust (or, in Hebrew, the Shoah), when six million European Jews died. Some in the West knew and did nothing. Many knew little and cared less. Some cared but knew little. When the facts came to light, a huge head of steam built up, not least from horror, deep sympathy, and residual guilt either for conniving with anti-Semitism or at least for standing by and doing nothing. The Jews, millions felt, must have a homeland. Uganda was proposed. So was part of Argentina. But most Jews knew that only their ancient homeland, promised by God to Abraham, possessed by Joshua, would do. Many thousands had already emigrated there, often in defiance first of Turkish rule and then of the British mandate. In May 1948 the United Nations set up the new state of Israel.

Many of the early Jewish settlers genuinely believed the land was empty. ‘A land without people for a people without a land’ was their slogan. This, however, was far from the truth. The Palestinians were neither numerous nor strong, but they existed, real people living in real houses on real farms, running real businesses. They were ordered out, often with threats, sometimes with actual violence. In typical instances, they were given half an hour to get ready, and then bussed away, either over the border into Jordan (thereby creating huge new problems for that neighbour) or into specified towns such as Nazareth. They were not allowed back. To this day there are Jews living in those Palestinians’ houses, tilling their fields, sleeping in their beds, eating off their china, and quite likely quoting Deuteronomy to back it all up: houses you did not build, fields you did not plant, vineyards you did not grow. Two poignant pictures from dozens stand out: a little boy persuading the bus-driver to stop at his front gate so he could get his radio from the house; an old man, told to pack up his belongings, going instead out to his small garden to say a fond and sad farewell to his two olive trees, which he and his forebears had lovingly cultivated for countless generations.

The tale is too long to tell here, and far too complex, intricate and many-sided. The Jews came in on the high moral ground of their sufferings in the Holocaust: the Yad Vashem memorial, in modern West Jerusalem, stands both as a horrific reminder of the appalling sufferings of European Jewry a generation ago and as a strong appeal for the moral legitimacy of the present state of Israel. Every criticism of Israel can at once be construed as a resurgence of anti-Semitism. The Palestinians, with every passing year, claim higher and higher moral ground, as many of them live in dirty and squalid refugee camps, kept behind barbed wire while sometimes, within their sight, new settlements, with all modern conveniences, are built for Jewish immigrants to live in (and to guard fiercely), and holiday resorts for them to play in. The Jews lose moral ground every time another settlement goes up in the West Bank, which the Orthodox refer to as ‘Judaea and Samaria’, in defiance of United Nations resolutions and of the spirit of the Oslo accord. The Palestinians lose moral ground every time they demonstrate in support of Saddam Hussein, every time another Hamas suicide bomber blows himself up, taking another dozen Israeli civilians with him.

 

[Drew]

Is there really going to be a mass salvation of the Jews in the future? Do we therefore need to support Israel politically over the Palestinians because of Scripture, giving them a "home" where they will experience this salvation? The following from Romans 11 has been used as an argument that there will be such a mass salvation in the future:

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
In case you do not know, Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20

The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,"
declares the LORD.

What is Isaiah 59 all about? It is about covenant renewal. What is one of the major themes of Romans? I submit that it is this: Paul is given the stunning insight that what God has promised to do for Israel at the end of her long history, He has surrpisingly done for Her Messiah in the middle of history.

Israel's promised vindication is Jesus' vindication;

Israel's deliverance from exile has turned out to be Jesus' deliverance from the exile of death;

Israel's promised political restoration - as per Ezekiel 37 - has not turned out to be a political restoration at all. The "dry bones" being assembled refer to in that passage have turned out to denote the resurrection from the dead of the Christian.

Even though the Jews expect to be justified in the sight of the nations by getting their land back, God has bigger and better plans - the justification takes the form of members of "true" Israel being raised from the dead.

All this argues against the notion the covenant renewal referred to in Romans 11:27 lies in the future. It has already happened in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

Robert, I take no sides in this discussion; I just wanted to say that the population of modern Israel aren't Jews. 8-) Call them Israelis.

Our response is to criticize them for aligning themselves with extremists which causes us to give even more support to Israel when in fact it was our partisan support that gave them no one else to turn to. America does not learn from history. Fidel Castro was a liberal who turned to communism after America spurned him when he overthrew the corrupt government of Batista. When Fidel needed help to rebuild the nation Russia offered him what America refused.

I basically liked your post Dunamite, but got a chuckle out of this. Cuba didn't flourish nor was it rebuilt. They replaced one foul government with one that was worse... and communist to boot. :o That country is in miserable shape. You can't trust the likes of Michael Moore for the scoop on the political and cultural wellbeing of Cuba. :-?

The Who once sang:

"Meet the new Boss; same as the old Boss." 8-)

 

[bibleberean]

"According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics population report for 24th April 2007, there are 5,415,000 Jews in Israel today. This is to some extent an underestimation the elite ethnic group, since those reporting 'no religion' are no longer included as Jews, although they are mainly 'Jewish' immigrants from the former USSR.

The largest number of Jews outside Israel live in the United States of America, which has approximately 6 million Jewish citizens."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Jews ... rael_today

Many Jews througout the world that consider themselves ethnic Jews are not Orthodox Jews or practioners of their faith.

They are still called Jews.

The Jews were caught up in idolatry in the past and "went a whoring after other gods" Judges 2:17 and on and on. They were still called Jews although their spiritual hearts were not circumsised.

It is also interesting to note that the camp inside the Christian church today wants all the "blessings" of Israel imputed to them but neglect the "curses". ;-)

The church is not Israel nor has it replaced Israel.

The church is a "new creature" and Israel is not.

God demanded that Israel be circumsised but He did not require circumsision for the church .

For Israel

Genesis 17:11-14 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

For the church

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

There is a difference between Israel and the church. Israel has an earthly promise and a land but the church has a heavenly promise.

Unfortunetly the Arab Muslims who hate the Jews and the nation of Israel have a much clearer picture and understanding of the JEWS than many in the church.

I will post this video again. I hope peopel will watch it but know most (maybe not any) will. Oh well,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsOV7wZ8kVo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u77eltvhBWo

Just as the bible foretold Jerusalem is going to be a "cup of trembling" for the whole world.

Zechariah 12:2-3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

The United Nations spends more time debating and worrying about Israel and Jerusalem than any other place on earth. The final war will be fought there. Get ready! Jesus is coming soon!

 

[bibleberean]

Here is a Palistinian who considers the peopl of Israel Jews. He has some real nice things to say... NOT!

This man is a hero in Palestine. The Muslims love this guy and the majority of Palistinians support animals like him. I support Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYm2qO5bxv8

 

[Drew]

"God demanded that Israel be circumsised but He did not require circumsision for the church .

For Israel

Genesis 17:11-14 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And yet what does Paul write in Romans 2?:

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God

Clearly, and I do mean clearly, Paul is "re-defining" Israel. He is arguing that there is an "ethnic Israel", who are physically circumcized, and there is an "Israel according to the Spirit or promise":

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring

And where is the place of the Gentiles?:

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God

Let the Scriptures speak: the church is "Israel according to the Spirit". The promises have all been fulfilled (2 Cor 1:20):

For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ.

The promise of the land to the Jews has turned out to be something else in God's purposes - the gift of eternal life in the entire redeemed creation for "true" Israel - "Israel according to the Spirit"

 

[Drew]

I support Israel.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[bibleberean]

Israel and the Nations
The following posting is by Prof. Paul Eidelberg. I think it makes its point quite succinctly.

"In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man." These words of Rabbi Hillel apply to a nation no less than to an individual. They apply especially to Israel, to the Jewish people who, for 2,000 years, have been vilified, persecuted, and decimated by the nations of this world.

Israel is alone. Consider her present situation. Democratic America, like democratic Europe, is committed to a Palestinian stateâ€â€an inevitable Arab dictatorship on Israel's doorstep. Democratic America, like democratic Europe, is bent on forcing Israel back to her indefensible 1949 borders. Democratic America and democratic Europe are supplying Islamic dictatorships with sophisticated military equipment, which can only facilitate the demise of "democratic" Israel.

That Israel is alone is no accident of policy, or of this or that Israeli government. It is the historic burden of the Jewish people, a people despised in the Gospels, in the Koran, in the writings of Karl Marx. It is no accident that the UN, founded on democratic principles, but dominated by Islamic and other tyrannies, repeatedly condemns Israel. It is no accident that the UN Security Council should admit to its membership terrorists states committed to Israel's destruction.

People of Israel: Do you not see that democratic equality has made it possible for the UN to become the leveler of all distinctions: distinctions between freedom and servitude, between good and evil, between civilization and barbarism? Do you not see that despite the democracy of which you so foolishly boast you are aloneâ€â€alone among the democratic nations of the world?

Israel's destiny is to be alone, only she does not know how to stand alone. She imitates the nations of the West, tripping over each other in their mad rush to appease petty Arabs despots. The West is decadent: decadent in passion, thought, and action. One does not need to be a Nietzsche to smell the decay.

What does the West take pride in? Its affluence? A word for hedonism. Its freedom? A euphemism for licentiousness. Its pluralism? A meaningless hodgepodge. Its humanism? A leveling of humanity. Its universities? Generators of nihilism. This nihilism, this lack of conviction, is so deep and widespread that the West cannot honestly confront its sworn and decadent enemy: Islam. Instead, the West (Edom) unites with Islam (Ishmael) against Israel.

So Israel is alone, despised by the nations. And well she might be despised, led as she is by despicable politicians. They know not the secret of Jewish survival. They know not that the Jews survived because they despised their despisers. They know not that the Jews survived by remaining distinct, different, distant. They know not that the Jews survived not by imitating the nations but by cultivating their own ancient heritage, daring to believe they are God's Chosen People, a people with a divine mission. What nation has bestowed upon mankind the blessings of this people?

Come therefore to Israel, O you Jews that live in gentile lands in which you have and can have no future, neither for yourselves nor for your children. Come to Israel! Let us rid this land of its pusillanimous politicians and create a Jewish Israel. This Holy Land awaits you, and the God of Israel promises you, that here, together with your people, you shall know how to stand alone and be a blessing to mankind.

 

[bibleberean]

"God demanded that Israel be circumsised but He did not require circumsision for the church .

For Israel

Genesis 17:11-14 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And yet what does Paul write in Romans 2?:

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God

Clearly, and I do mean clearly, Paul is "re-defining" Israel. He is arguing that there is an "ethnic Israel", who are physically circumcized, and there is an "Israel according to the Spirit or promise":

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring

And where is the place of the Gentiles?:

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God

Let the Scriptures speak: the church is "Israel according to the Spirit". The promises have all been fulfilled (2 Cor 1:20):

For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ.

The promise of the land to the Jews has turned out to be something else in God's purposes - the gift of eternal life in the entire redeemed creation for "true" Israel - "Israel according to the Spirit"

In the church there is no Jew or Greek but one new man. That is absolutely correct. The Jews are not the church nor or that yet saved.

Pardon my error I meant Romans 11.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The church is already saved and the church is not Jacob. We are the seed of Abraham by faith but we are not Jacob because Jacob is Israel.

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The church has already had it's sins taken away.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Those who are truly in the church and body of Christ not Israel are not enemies of the gospel but saved by it.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

In other words God's promises to Israel are everlasting.

God will yet save Israel but Israel of the flesh is currently under a curse.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

In chapter 11 we get Paul's stern rebuke. Don't boast against Israel.

Paul speaking to the Gentiles (non Jews) in the church.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (yet future)

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Israel will be resurrected.

Jesus told the Jews who rejected Him that they would see Him no more until something happened and indeed that will happen.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

They will say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord" when they go through the time of Jacob's Trouble". They will know that they rejected their Messiah and will call upon Him.

Drew,

I wish I could talk to you in person face to face. This is an ackward medium for discussion but all we can do is the best we can.

Israel has a future because God has promised Israel that He will not cast them off forever and he does not lie. He did not transfer the blessings meant for Israel to the church. We are two distinct groups.

The Jews that believed were became Christians a new entity. Israel according to the flesh became cursed until their punishment is over and they call upon Christ.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[stovebolts]

This begs the question, what is the next step? How do we deal with these tragic situations? As Christians, what does God's word tell us?

To help!

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matthew 25:35-40

Hey! Good to see you back too!

Great post too! I was thinking about the conversation that Jesus had with Pilate and what occured afteward.

John 19:10-12 Then said Pilate unto him, Speak you not unto me? know you not that I have power to crucify you, and have power to release you? Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against me, except it were given you from above: therefore he that delivered me unto you has the greater sin. And from there on Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If you let this man go, you are not Caesar's friend: whosoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar.

Israel was supposed to be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation...
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

And the purpose?
Deuteronomy 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

I don't see them acting as a holy nation that other nations envy because of their wisdom. What I see is a repeat of history as Israel boarders on becoming exiled again...

 

[bibleberean]

The surrounding Arab nations have attacked Israel 5 times without provocation. Every time they were soundly defeated. :D

Here is a video on the 1967 6 day war. God bless Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy5L3GPy7JQ