Which was at fault, the first covenant, or the people of the covenant?

[jasoncran]

True enough, but not in regard to what used to be required to do to worship God in various Feasts and appointed days. It's no longer a sin to not keep the old covenant worship schedule and the associated sacrifices that we would be convicted as lawbreakers and have to repent and begin doing them when we learn about them.

And I don't think that means that first covenant of priesthood, temple, and sacrifice was faulty. But it was surely inadequate for a faulty people. Faulty people need a better covenant.




What animal sacrifice atoned for murder and adultery? The law demanded justice, not mercy for those sins. Only in Christ is mercy available for capital crimes. But I don't think that makes the old covenant faulty. Inadequate compared to the New and better Covenant, but not faulty. Do you agree?

keep in mind that its also function as civil law.


do you expect God to mysterious move and undo the actions of any sin you do

if you get girl pregnant and you repent does he then abort the child for you?
if you murder and your repent are we to say well he isnt worthy of death anymore.

no that means you are worthy of the crime and death.

i have commited crimes and when i was told to make amends i did, that is part of repentance.

i figured since you know of the law that would be plain to you.

isreal was a nation and had to function as its laws were also like ours just given directly from god and based on a theocracy where as the us has the common things that god would find offensive but other things we dont(freedom or religion)

if we did the nations of anystate directly like god does with mercy we wouldnt have any form of order.

yes we can be lenient but im not for letting any penantent christian go on murder. i may forgive him but i aint going to just like him for killing my wife and or daughter.

or thief. and well yes god was merciful in that he didnt kill david but david reaped that seed. most of sons died, he lost he wives and im sure it added gray hairs and sent him to the grave earlier.

his souls wasnt lost but he did have to pay in sorts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

keep in mind that its also function as civil law.


do you expect God to mysterious move and undo the actions of any sin you do

if you get girl pregnant and you repent does he then abort the child for you?
if you murder and your repent are we to say well he isnt worthy of death anymore.

no that means you are worthy of the crime and death.

i have commited crimes and when i was told to make amends i did, that is part of repentance.

i figured since you know of the law that would be plain to you.

isreal was a nation and had to function as its laws were also like ours just given directly from god and based on a theocracy where as the us has the common things that god would find offensive but other things we dont(freedom or religion)

if we did the nations of anystate directly like god does with mercy we wouldnt have any form of order.

yes we can be lenient but im not for letting any penantent christian go on murder. i may forgive him but i aint going to just like him for killing my wife and or daughter.

or thief. and well yes god was merciful in that he didnt kill david but david reaped that seed. most of sons died, he lost he wives and im sure it added gray hairs and sent him to the grave earlier.

his souls wasnt lost but he did have to pay in sorts.

Maybe you can address this more directly to something I've said, if you don't mind doing that. I apologize, but I'm just not making the connection.

 

[jasoncran]

Maybe you can address this more directly to something I've said, if you don't mind doing that. I apologize, but I'm just not making the connection.

just because the bible didnt record it doesnt mean that there wernt murders that repented and sought mercy.

theres one king that did a lot and got mercy.

you do realise that mercy was given and i think you do.

King James Version (KJV)

2 Chronicles 33


1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem:
2But did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
3For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
4Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.
5And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
6And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
7And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:
8Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
9So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel.
10And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken.
11Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon.
12And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers,
13And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God.
14Now after this he built a wall without the city of David, on the west side of Gihon, in the valley, even to the entering in at the fish gate, and compassed about Ophel, and raised it up a very great height, and put captains of war in all the fenced cities of Judah.
15And he took away the strange gods, and the idol out of the house of the LORD, and all the altars that he had built in the mount of the house of the LORD, and in Jerusalem, and cast them out of the city.
16And he repaired the altar of the LORD, and sacrificed thereon peace offerings and thank offerings, and commanded Judah to serve the LORD God of Israel.
17Nevertheless the people did sacrifice still in the high places, yet unto the LORD their God only.
18Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and his prayer unto his God, and the words of the seers that spake to him in the name of the LORD God of Israel, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel.
19His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sins, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.
20So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.
21Amon was two and twenty years old when he began to reign, and reigned two years in Jerusalem.
22But he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, as did Manasseh his father: for Amon sacrificed unto all the carved images which Manasseh his father had made, and served them;
23And humbled not himself before the LORD, as Manasseh his father had humbled himself; but Amon trespassed more and more.
24And his servants conspired against him, and slew him in his own house. 25But the people of the land slew all them that had conspired against king Amon; and the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his stead.

lets see what adam clarke says.

Verse 13. And prayed unto him
"While he was thus praying, all the presiding angels went away to the gates of prayer in heaven; and shut all the gates of prayer, and all the windows and apertures in heaven, lest that his prayer should be heard. Immediately the compassions of the Creator of the world were moved, whose right hand is stretched out to receive sinners, who are converted to his fear, and break their hearts' concupiscence by repentance. He made therefore a window and opening in heaven, under the throne of his glory; and having heard his prayer, he favourably received his supplication. And when his WORD had shaken the earth, the mule was burst and he escaped. Then the Spirit went out from between the wings of the cherubim; by which, being inspired through the decree of the WORD of the Lord, he returned to his kingdom in Jerusalem. And then Manasseh knew that it was the Lord God who had done these miracles and signs; and he turned to the Lord with his whole heart, left all his idols, and never served them more." This long addition gives the Jewish account of those particulars which the sacred writer has passed by: it is curious, though in some sort trifling. The gates of prayer may be considered childish; but in most of those things the ancient rabbins purposely hid deep and important meanings.

ok the law says what was wrong of course but that doesnt mean that if you were going to die and sought mercy god wouldnt forgive you.

we agree that the law condemns right? but that doesnt mean in anywhere in the ot that no mercy was given.

in the nt theres things god feels you should die for if you dont repent. its listed in romans one

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

i was condemned by this, i was in homosexual relationship even while i repented for my sins and was attending church. i was told that it was sin to be with a man.

i repented. imagine that a nt scripture convicted. that means i was in sin and had to repent and that god wouldnt simply say ok you wont be rewarded in heaven. though the person who told me that did believe in eternal security.

theres lists of those that do things not being saved. but that is another topic.

 

[Fedusenko]

no that has been debunked by geneticists. few khazars converted.

if you doubt i will post the link.

Please do. I will enjoy the read.

As far as I am concerned, the Law was created by Yahweh. He does not err. Therefor, his creation is perfect until manipulated. To say that the first covenant was faulty is to also say that God is fallible. Is this agreeable?

 

[jasoncran]

Please do. I will enjoy the read.

As far as I am concerned, the Law was created by Yahweh. He does not err. Therefor, his creation is perfect until manipulated. To say that the first covenant was faulty is to also say that God is fallible. Is this agreeable?

the first covenant was faulty per hebrews.

lol. i am an ashkenazi jew.

surely i havent heard your theory before, nope.


http://creation.com/genesis-correctly-predicts-y-chromosome-pattern

 

[Jethro Bodine]

just because the bible didnt record it doesnt mean that there wernt murders that repented and sought mercy.

theres one king that did a lot and got mercy.

you do realise that mercy was given and i think you do.

I do realize this. But the point I made was any mercy a person received during the first covenant for something that the law demanded justice for (i.e. death) and for which there was no provision for mercy for (e.g. murder, adultery, blasphemy) received that mercy from outside of the law, not from the Mosaic law in effect at the time.

Does the fact that the law had no provision to let a murderer, or an adulterer, or a Sabbath breaker live make the first covenant 'faulty', or just inadequate and inferior when compared to the New Covenant that does provide mercy for murder, and adultery, and Sabbath breaking, etc? That is the point. The point is not that it was totally impossible for a murderer or an adulterer, etc. to receive mercy while the first covenant (that did not have a provision for that mercy) was in effect. King David is a wonderful example of that. But it isn't because of the mercy of the law that he lived even though he was a murderer and an adulterer.

ok the law says what was wrong of course but that doesnt mean that if you were going to die and sought mercy god wouldnt forgive you.

we agree that the law condemns right? but that doesnt mean in anywhere in the ot that no mercy was given.

And I hope you can now see that I wasn't suggesting at all that mercy for capital crimes was not available during the first covenant. It just wasn't available from the law itself. It came from outside the law, from the eternal Covenant of God's grace with mankind that has existed from the foundations of the world--Jesus Christ. Amen, and amen.

in the nt theres things god feels you should die for if you dont repent. its listed in romans one

Right...if you don't repent. But at least the New Covenant has the provision for forgiveness for those things if you do repent. The first covenant did not. But don't misunderstand, that doesn't mean God's glorious grace to forgive the offenses that demanded death without mercy was not active in the world even then.

 

[jasoncran]

I do realize this. But the point I made was any mercy a person received during the first covenant for something that the law demanded justice for (i.e. death) and for which there was no provision for mercy for (e.g. murder, adultery, blasphemy) received that mercy from outside of the law, not from the Mosaic law.

Does the fact that the law had no provision to let a murderer, or an adulterer, or a Sabbath breaker live make the first covenant 'faulty', or just inadequate and inferior to the New Covenant that does provide mercy for murder, and adultery, and Sabbath breaking, etc? That is the point. The point is not that it was totally impossible for a murderer or an adulterer, etc. to receive mercy while the first covenant (that did not have a provision for that mercy) was in effect. King David is a wonderful example of that. But it isn't because of the mercy of the law that he lived even though he was a murderer and an adulterer.




And I hope you can now see that I wasn't suggesting at all that mercy for capital crimes was not available during the first covenant. It just wasn't available from the law. It came from outside the law, from the eternal Covenant of God's grace with mankind that has existed from the foundations of the world--Jesus Christ. Amen, and amen.



Right...if you don't repent. But at least the New Covenant has the provision for forgiveness for those things. The first covenant did not. But don't misunderstand, that doesn't mean God's glorious grace to forgive the offenses that demanded death without mercy was not active in the world even then.

actually it did.

read the sages on this stuff and do some solo scriptura.

when we say god wanted this we also have to take in account that god worked with mercy if one cried out

the law said that if one that wasnt a levi and offered a sacrifice they died.

yet david and hezekiah had that done. they didnt die.

and moses said circumcise the foreskin of your heart and be ye no more stiff necked.
deutermony

16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked

it was always a heart matter not a legal matter with god.

a fleshly heart wouldnt do those things and he would also repent if he did.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

actually it did.

I don't think it did. Can you show me where the law let even the repentant murderer and adulterer live? I'm certainly open to learning something new if it really did. But I believe the law demanded death and made no provision for mercy for any murderer, or blasphemer, or adulterer, etc.

You're probably still not grasping what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we know from what Paul said that the law simply could not forgive all sin:

39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:39 NIV1984 emboldened part mine)

But we know some, like David, did receive forgiveness for things the law could not forgive. The point being, that forgiveness did not come from the law, but it was certainly available, by grace, during the time of the first covenant law. But now, that grace that David and others enjoyed is a part of the (New) Covenant we are now under. That doesn't mean the old covenant was faulty, for surely everyone who didn't commit those capital crimes and was blameless under the law could be blessed by that law. What it means is the New Covenant is just that much better.

 

[Hitch]

I don't think it did. Can you show me where the law let even the repentant murderer and adulterer live? I'm certainly open to learning something new if it really did. But I believe the law demanded death and made no provision for mercy for any murderer, or blasphemer, or adulterer, etc.

You're probably still not grasping what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we know from what Paul said that the law simply could not forgive all sin:

39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:39 NIV1984 emboldened part mine)

But we know some, like David, did receive forgiveness for things the law could not forgive. The point being, that forgiveness did not come from the law, but it was certainly available, by grace, during the time of the first covenant law. But now, that grace that David and others enjoyed is a part of the (New) Covenant we are now under. That doesn't mean the old covenant was faulty, for surely everyone who didn't commit those capital crimes and was blameless under the law could be blessed by that law. What it means is the New Covenant is just that much better.

The Law recognized degrees of homicide and required due process.

 

[Fedusenko]

the first covenant was faulty per hebrews.

lol. i am an ashkenazi jew.

surely i havent heard your theory before, nope.


http://creation.com/genesis-correctly-predicts-y-chromosome-pattern

Thanks, I did enjoy that. My comment wasn't an attack, but an observation made from apparently false historical data. I intend to investigate more on the matter as it is a very interesting subject.

But again, should first century gentile Christians be considered Israelites due to induction?

 

[smaller]

Covenants inclusive of Law were taught as parables, with both, 2 covenants taught openly in the accounts of Abraham:

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Few are able to understand the covenants and the Law as matters of parable, yet that is exactly how Jesus and the Apostles openly taught these matters.

When stepping onto the ground of parable, one must be factually armed and enlightened to the facts of parables by His Spirit. Otherwise understandings are futile BECAUSE of the fact of the TWO COVENANTS. Carnal flesh slave sons do not and can not understand these matters nor will they ever because they are not given to understand nor are such given to participate in the SECOND COVENANT of THE FREE. That will simply never happen. It is impossible.

'All' believers do war against that son which is born of the flesh and contained therein in themselves. The engagements do not reside with 'the other people' but within ourselves. Until the witness of the parable, The Spirit brings LIFE to matters of parables and makes them personal, none will see, none will hear, none will understand.

It is around these matters that ALL divisions come. All debate, all strife, all ignorance is born out of the TWO COVENANTS and the inabilities to grasp the significance of BOTH applications upon ones SELF.

Even Abraham struggled with this matter when requesting Ishmael, his son of the bond woman, the son of the flesh to be his heir.

Genesis 19
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God turned him down FLAT.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac

You may come to see this matter of BOTH SONS coming from ONE FATHER.

This is in reality a picture of YOUR PRODUCE. One of the Spirit and one of the flesh.

The Law in this regard is for the BENEFIT of the HEIR. The Law is against the son who does not and can not inherit.

Gods Laws and Covenants have already established and determined who gets what. These matters can not be changed or altered.

It is impossible to change Ishmael's into Isaac's. The Law has made this an impossibility.

enjoy!

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law recognized degrees of homicide and required due process.

No doubt about it, but did the law make any provision to grant mercy to one justly convicted of willful murder, adultery, or Sabbath breaking, etc. through due process but who was then repentant? I'm not aware of such a provision in the law. I think this is what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the things that the law could not forgive...but who could be forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ--the New Covenant God has made with man.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Covenants inclusive of Law were taught as parables, with both, 2 covenants taught openly in the accounts of Abraham:

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Few are able to understand the covenants and the Law as matters of parable, yet that is exactly how Jesus and the Apostles openly taught these matters.

When stepping onto the ground of parable, one must be factually armed and enlightened to the facts of parables by His Spirit. Otherwise understandings are futile BECAUSE of the fact of the TWO COVENANTS. Carnal flesh slave sons do not and can not understand these matters nor will they ever because they are not given to understand nor are such given to participate in the SECOND COVENANT of THE FREE. That will simply never happen. It is impossible.

'All' believers do war against that son which is born of the flesh and contained therein in themselves. The engagements do not reside with 'the other people' but within ourselves. Until the witness of the parable, The Spirit brings LIFE to matters of parables and makes them personal, none will see, none will hear, none will understand.

It is around these matters that ALL divisions come. All debate, all strife, all ignorance is born out of the TWO COVENANTS and the inabilities to grasp the significance of BOTH applications upon ones SELF.

Even Abraham struggled with this matter when requesting Ishmael, his son of the bond woman, the son of the flesh to be his heir.

Genesis 19
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God turned him down FLAT.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac

You may come to see this matter of BOTH SONS coming from ONE FATHER.

This is in reality a picture of YOUR PRODUCE. One of the Spirit and one of the flesh.

The Law in this regard is for the BENEFIT of the HEIR. The Law is against the son who does not and can not inherit.

Gods Laws and Covenants have already established and determined who gets what. These matters can not be changed or altered.

It is impossible to change Ishmael's into Isaac's. The Law has made this an impossibility.

enjoy!

s

It is true, the fleshly person born through the works of the first covenant can not, and never will, share in the inheritance. Only the spiritual son born through the Promise of the New Covenant is in line for the inheritance. But does that mean the old covenant is faulty, or just that it is inadequate to make an outwardly fleshly nation of God's people into a nation of spiritual sons of God who inherit the promises?

 

[Stormcrow]

Was it because the first covenant was at fault that it was not able to deliver what it promised, or was it because the people the promises were made to were at fault?

{1} For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. {2} Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? {3} But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. {4}For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:1-4 (NASB)

The Law was put in place to show the people that they could never be saved by the Law. It was - instead - intended to teach them about Christ and His sacrifice:

{39}"You search the Scriptures [Law and Prophets] because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; {40} and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. John 5:39-40 (NASB)

The Law was good: it testified about Christ. It was never intended to save anyone but to teach the people about Him. The people dropped the ball.

 

[jasoncran]

Thanks, I did enjoy that. My comment wasn't an attack, but an observation made from apparently false historical data. I intend to investigate more on the matter as it is a very interesting subject.

But again, should first century gentile Christians be considered Israelites due to induction?

nope, the idea that the jews will be doing the law in the messaniac age is a clear misunderstand of what paul says.

god was going to save men and women from the line of abraham that is all. he isnt going to have a double dispenstation.

if so then paul and the apostles arent jews at all.

 

[smaller]

It is true, the fleshly person born through the works of the first covenant can not, and never will, share in the inheritance.

The larger picture that I was pointing to from the text is that entire and large portions of O.T. scriptures inclusive of LAW are ALLEGORICAL and PARABLES.

So, I very much tire of whiners about 'the Law' who continue to point to physical external functions of the Law FALSELY thinking that is what they are about because that is not the case whatsoever. Unfortunately such are Ishmael's in their own minds. Our Father has not led them into understanding NOR WILL HE.

They are in effect already LOCKED OUT of the Kingdom of God and blinded to it, though it be right there in front of their eyes. This is a working of the 'children of the flesh' DOMINATING over A BELIEVER.

I do not discount both workings to be in believers. Israel showed us this fact beyond any doubt. The more God blessed them, THE MORE THEY SINNED. They were factually (and still are) ALL GODS CHILDREN, but that is not 'all' that is Israel. Israel's 'children of the flesh' are not readily apparent to eyes of the flesh. They must be perceived through ALLEGORY and through PARABLE.

Believers can NOT look into these Spiritual matters until God calls them into it. That's right. Believers.

Until then they will show they are not called in deeper by God when they DENY HIS WORDS.

No child of God denies the Words of our Father. Not one jot or tittle of same. Such deniers have in actuality been captured by the child of the flesh they also carry, just as Paul stated here:

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The accounts are NOT stories about Ishmael and Isaac. They are about US and our SIN. And AFTER we have been born of faith! These were the 'produce' of Abraham. These are the produce of all of us put forth in allegory.

So, in the understanding of COVENANTS there is in reality ONLY ONE. But it is TWO in it's working. One FOR Isaac and one AGAINST Ishmael.

Ismael's can't understand the Covenant SINGULAR nor will he ever. And we all carry this son of the flesh STILL.

Those whom God has called WILL understand. It will start to catch in their heart and mind.

Apart from allegory and parable, there is NO UNDERSTANDING of ANY LAW OR COVENANT.

I get really sick of always telling these things to Ishmael's. They just don't get it, nor can they. At the same time however it does bolster my faith because some of these facts are solidly verifiable, such as Ishmael's NOT getting it.

Only the spiritual son born through the Promise of the New Covenant is in line for the inheritance. But does that mean the old covenant is faulty, or just that it is inadequate to make an outwardly fleshly nation of God's people into a nation of spiritual sons of God who inherit the promises?

Israel and Ishmael were overlapped. Again, this is a picture of US individually. The Spirit warring against the operators in the flesh.

I will at this point provide the disclosure of the father of the children of the flesh.

THE DEVIL. This is why these things are taught in PARABLE and ALLEGORY because we can NOT SEE our REAL enemies. They are only seen IN PARABLE and in ALLEGORY.

Children of God will see this to be a fact. Children of the flesh will BLIND the children of God to this fact. Both operations transpire in believers.

enjoy!

s