Who Believes In The Death Penalty ?

[Lewis]

Jesus may have been joking but then again, he did take all the punishment what the romans dished out and refused any of his followers to act in a vengeful or violent way, even healing the man who had his ear cut of. The fact is I personally can't say weather jesus was joking, i've always taken his word to be truth and out straight. But like I said religion is difficult in these situations. Were not supposed to judge, that is gods job but for the good of humanity we must have law. I still say the british and american system is to messed up to allow killing.

We are to judge crime though, and that is Biblical. Thats is one of the reasons courts established in the Old Testament. And in the New Testament take a look at 1 Corinthian 6:1-2

1 Corinthians 6:1-2

1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

[RichardE40K]

I agree on some of the base fundamentals of the bible, I was not saying that we should not have law, all I was saying is that technically, man is not permitted to judge, as we don't know every detail, only god knows that, and we don't know the measure of a persons heart, yet again only knowledge of god. But again I belive in a law system and punishment as humanity itself has to sustain itself and without it would collapse, and god would not want that surely. I mean even the animal kingdom has a law system of such, with a ladder of power and authority, I'm just a person that questions authority, as corruption and ignorance is a big thing in some courts.

 

[Lewis]

And you should be be on the look out for secular law, even though most of the laws secular courts go by come from the Bible. Hey did anybody check out those links executed women in America, a lot of them women were killed over garbage.

 

[RichardE40K]

I will keep an eye out. I had a quick look but real life death just makes me down, but that's no excuse to let it continue.

 

[Lewis]

So if these culprits are caught, what should they get ?


GARDEN GROVE, California (AP) CNN-- A 1-year-old girl spent up to three days alone with the bloody bodies of her murdered family, her face kicked or beaten and lips cracked from dehydration, police said.

"She was left for dead," Lt. Mike Handfield said Tuesday. "If she would have been here any longer, she could have perished from lack of food and water."

Police found the bodies of a man in his 30s, a woman in her late 20s and a 7-year-old boy on Monday when they conducted a welfare check at the family's home, located on a street lined with two-story, stucco houses about 35 miles southeast of Los Angeles in Orange County.

Police said they expected to release the names of the victims on Wednesday, after autopsies were completed and relatives were notified.

The girl was treated at a hospital for dehydration and facial injuries and taken into protective custody.

The girl smiled at the officer who found her, Handfield said. "She clung to him and he hugged her. She was glad to be next to a warm human body, to have somebody with her."

Because of the girl's dehydrated state, detectives believe the killings may have occurred Friday evening -- the last time the family was heard from.

Investigators did not know the motive for the attack, and no arrests had been made. Authorities did not say what type of weapon was used in the attack but ruled out a murder-suicide.

There were no signs of forced entry, and evidence at the scene suggested that the family knew the attacker or attackers, Handfield said.

The slain man had a history of arrests on nonviolent charges and had once spent time in prison.

Handfield declined to elaborate but said investigators do not believe the crimes were connected to the killings.

 

[SputnikBoy]

GARDEN GROVE, California (AP) CNN-- A 1-year-old girl spent up to three days alone with the bloody bodies of her murdered family, her face kicked or beaten and lips cracked from dehydration, police said.

"She was left for dead," Lt. Mike Handfield said Tuesday. "If she would have been here any longer, she could have perished from lack of food and water."

Police found the bodies of a man in his 30s, a woman in her late 20s and a 7-year-old boy on Monday when they conducted a welfare check at the family's home, located on a street lined with two-story, stucco houses about 35 miles southeast of Los Angeles in Orange County.

Police said they expected to release the names of the victims on Wednesday, after autopsies were completed and relatives were notified.

The girl was treated at a hospital for dehydration and facial injuries and taken into protective custody.

The girl smiled at the officer who found her, Handfield said. "She clung to him and he hugged her. She was glad to be next to a warm human body, to have somebody with her."

Because of the girl's dehydrated state, detectives believe the killings may have occurred Friday evening -- the last time the family was heard from.

Investigators did not know the motive for the attack, and no arrests had been made. Authorities did not say what type of weapon was used in the attack but ruled out a murder-suicide.

There were no signs of forced entry, and evidence at the scene suggested that the family knew the attacker or attackers, Handfield said.

The slain man had a history of arrests on nonviolent charges and had once spent time in prison.

Handfield declined to elaborate but said investigators do not believe the crimes were connected to the killings.

So if these culprits are caught, what should they get ?

They should be given the opportunity for Christians to visit them after they are caught, found guilty, and incarcerated.

 

[Lewis]

sehad wrote:
This is an interesting question and it is true that there is a difference between justice and forgiveness. Consider this. Most people, including myself would say that they would try to forgive him but he deserves to die if he had not already. Same and with the hijackers of the 911 incident, kids of the Columbine High School shooting, Kansas City bomber. Because it is biblical that if we do not forgive others that we will not be forgiven of our sins. I do agree that killing two kids was horrendous and but in GOD's eyes he will receive the same eternal punishment as someone that lies. GOD would forgive and forget his crime if he truely repented but(and I think the bible supports this) being forgiven by GOD does not forgive you of the punishment that is coming by man. Certain acts cannot go unpunished by man or it would be utter confusion everywhere but he would still be in heaven with you if he truely repented before he was put to death(if that was his sentence due to this crime instead of suicide).

sehad wrote this in the other thread that is closely related to this that I started.
And he is right on the mark.

 

[sehad]

I am all for the death penalty if it is justified(ie. murder or very very horrendous crimes). As Lewis said I posted elsewhere, if you condem someone to death because of a crime and released them because they became a Christian, then everyone that was condemed to death would become a Christian. The thought of being put to death for some is enough to stop them from doing the crime, to others it doesn't matter. My brother was a guard at Angola on death row and there are plenty of good good people that are Christians now being put to death due to a crime. Most of them accept their fate as something that they deserve. Now is it right? I think so. Is it heartless? Well, was it heartless when they committed the crime? As stated in the post I put earlier, man must have some punishment like this or it will be chaos if everyone that claims to be a Christian is released. Is it murder? I think not. GOD commanded the children of Israel several times to kill all that opposed them and that were bringing war against them and disrupting the peace. This is what the death penalty does. If you disrupt the peace enough, you pay the price to where you can't do it again. As far those turned Christian, they may be forgiven by GOD, but man must follow the sentence out or the entire justice and court system fails.

 

[Lewis]

I am all for the death penalty if it is justified(ie. murder or very very horrendous crimes). As Lewis said I posted elsewhere, if you condem someone to death because of a crime and released them because they became a Christian, then everyone that was condemed to death would become a Christian. The thought of being put to death for some is enough to stop them from doing the crime, to others it doesn't matter. My brother was a guard at Angola on death row and there are plenty of good good people that are Christians now being put to death due to a crime. Most of them accept their fate as something that they deserve. Now is it right? I think so. Is it heartless? Well, was it heartless when they committed the crime? As stated in the post I put earlier, man must have some punishment like this or it will be chaos if everyone that claims to be a Christian is released. Is it murder? I think not. GOD commanded the children of Israel several times to kill all that opposed them and that were bringing war against them and disrupting the peace. This is what the death penalty does. If you disrupt the peace enough, you pay the price to where you can't do it again. As far those turned Christian, they may be forgiven by GOD, but man must follow the sentence out or the entire justice and court system fails.

And another great post, and right on the mark again.

 

[SputnikBoy]

So, would either of you volunteer to be executioner since you both feel so strongly about it? Or would you prefer that task go to someone else?

Sehad, I addressed something above about America's death row and at least one prisoner who become a Christian. Evidently it fell on deaf ears since you and Lewis seem to be blinded by an unhealthy vindictive streak. I would rather you say that the post was a lot of nonsense than having ignored it.

I don't believe that ANYONE has said that murder should not have its consequences, sehad, so I'm not sure where your line of thought is here. You seem to equate death by the state as being the ONLY option for a convicted murderer. Nor has ANYONE remotely suggested that a prison inmate who becomes a Christian should, by virtue of that fact alone, be released. A converted Christian would still serve his/her given time. So, why are you setting up strawmen here?

As in my previous post ...I repeat, death row is a judicial abomination. Those who will ultimately DIE spend years waiting for that moment and most Americans don't give a damn. It disgusts me that you and Lewis keep patting each other on the back by virtue of your approval of state murder and that sickening death row system.

 

[Drew]

Most of them accept their fate as something that they deserve. Now is it right? I think so. Is it heartless? Well, was it heartless when they committed the crime?

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says:

"You have heard that is was said 'an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth', But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil...."

Now I do not deny that context establishes that this text probably refers to "personal retaliation", and cannot directly be taken to argue against such societal level punishments as the death penatly.

However, I think it is clear that Jesus is generally calling us to a new way of dealing with evil. I know this may be a controversial position to take, but I do believe Jesus effectively does "improve" on the moral dictates of the Old Testament. I submit that any Biblical defence of the death penalty has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, which to me clearly speak of a disposition to seek the best for evil-doers ("love your enemies"). Putting them to death is hardly an expression of love.

Besides, I wonder if it is specifically American Christians who support the death penalty in majority. My sense is that Christians in other nations are generally opposed. Even if I am right in this "guess", it does not prove which side is right. However, it should cause us all to ask whether we might be mixing up cultural values with Biblical ones.

 

[Drew]

A follow-on to my previous post. It is sometimes argued, as I have suggested, that the mandate to "turn the other cheek" really applies to certain types of interpersonal interactions and is not sufficiently broad in its applicability to be used as an argument against the death penalty. I do not dispute this for reasons I will not go into.

However, I do think we need to look at the overall spirit of what Jesus is teaching us. For certain Christians, this suggestion elicits disapproval - because such an approach can never produce a"slam-dunk" argument. But I still think that the flavour of Jesus' teaching involves a radical "inversion" of our default inclinations in respect to dealing with evil. This alone should lead us to question whether supporting the death of evil-doers is really just a manifestation of the "old way". To me, it certainly does not feel consistent with the overall tenour of Jesus' teaching.

 

[sehad]

So, would either of you volunteer to be executioner since you both feel so strongly about it? Or would you prefer that task go to someone else?

If I was called upon and it was my civic duty, I would do it without remorse(of course I SAY this, being put in that situation I can't really say what I would do). As far as volunteering, no. But neither would I volunteer to go to IRAQ unless it was needed. Neither would I volunteer to clean out my own septic tank unless someone else could not be paid to do it or it was an emergency. Neither would I volunteer for jury duty, but would perform my civic duty if I was called upon to do so.

Sehad, I addressed something above about America's death row and at least one prisoner who become a Christian. Evidently it fell on deaf ears since you and Lewis seem to be blinded by an unhealthy vindictive streak. I would rather you say that the post was a lot of nonsense than having ignored it.

Have I said that someone convicted and put on death row them becomes a Christian is not forgiven by GOD? I believe they are and as I've said before, I believe that anyone of them that is forgiven by GOD will be in heaven with us.

I don't believe that ANYONE has said that murder should not have its consequences, sehad, so I'm not sure where your line of thought is here. You seem to equate death by the state as being the ONLY option for a convicted murderer. Nor has ANYONE remotely suggested that a prison inmate who becomes a Christian should, by virtue of that fact alone, be released. A converted Christian would still serve his/her given time. So, why are you setting up strawmen here?

Misunderstood and I apologize, but my view still remains the same.

As in my previous post ...I repeat, death row is a judicial abomination. Those who will ultimately DIE spend years waiting for that moment and most Americans don't give a damn. It disgusts me that you and Lewis keep patting each other on the back by virtue of your approval of state murder and that sickening death row system.

Your view against mine. Classy with the cussing though. Really shows that Lewis and I are the ones that have the vindictive streak. If you'll review the death process, nothing horrible about it. The person in question is put to sleep before an injection makes his/her heart stop. The most peaceful way that one can die which is probably more than what I can say for the way whomever they slaughtered went to meet the maker, or have you forgotten that someone else died very horribly to get that person to that point?

Besides, I wonder if it is specifically American Christians who support the death penalty in majority. My sense is that Christians in other nations are generally opposed. Even if I am right in this "guess", it does not prove which side is right. However, it should cause us all to ask whether we might be mixing up cultural values with Biblical ones.

Very good point Drew, and one that I will think on. I will say this though. Murder is against GOD's law and the bible, but killing is not. This is the reason that war is not against GOD or the bible if it is in the right context. A self-defense killing of someone to protect onesself or a group is not wrong, therefore the death penalty is not wrong.

What is WITH you guys? Sehad is persistently harping on about the fact that forgiveness should not mean a murderer going unpunished when NO ONE has ever suggested that a murderer or any other offender go unpunished. And you, Lewis, keep giving him accolades for this silliness.

What some of us ARE saying is that the punishment should NOT be death by the state ...plainly and simply.

This is from another thread but I will address it here. Where have you seen me "harp" on anything? I've simply stated my view and the reasoning behind it. YOU, on the other hand, have stated that my views are silly, that I am harping, saying that I don't care, pretty much calling me a bad Christian and that I'm intolertant, claiming that I'm vindictive, and all this without giving ANYTHING to support your views. Attacking me personally will not change my views and makes me automatically take any good point that you make and skew it around to where I disagree totally. So try a different approach if you really want to make a difference for your view of this.

I'm not sure what all of that means, Lewis, but to me they are just words from an old, old book. I wouldn't want to base my decision TO enforce the death penalty or NOT TO enforce the death penalty on a fellow human being from words in a book ...even if that book happens to be the Bible. If I choose to worship anyone it will be Jesus ...NOT the Bible. I feel that there is too much worship for the Bible and not enough for Jesus going on here as it is.

If you want an example of what Jesus would do when confronted with such a life and death issue, try John 8:3-11. This is one of my favorite scriptures and Christians today would do well to heed the message contained.

Also from another thread, but you have confused me here. You say that you do not want to use the bible to support or not to support your decision then use a bible passage? Explain this? Oh, just for your information, the bible should be your FIRST source for any decision that you make, afterall it is the inspired word of GOD. If it is not spelled out in black, white, or red then you should go to GOD. The word of GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever(biblical by the way). So you cannot just discard the bible when you want to. Noone is worshiping the bible, but the bible will be used to judge you as to whether or not you get into heaven while the author will be the judge. Seems to me that you should have a good understanding of what it says.

I cannot find it now, but someone posted asking me what if it was my family member or loved one that was put on death row. I would be crushed for sure, I might would even question the death penalty then...but it would be for my own selfish reasons, not for what was deserved. I may would not agree with it then, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would like to say that I would still stand for the death penalty, but NOONE can answer that unless they're in that situation. Now answer me this one. What if it was your 3 or 4 year old daughter, cousin, niece, sister, what have you that was raped and brutally murdered. What if it was your mother or father that had their face kicked in and left to die drowning in their own blood. What if your loved ones or family had been killed in the Oklahoma City bombing? Would you change your mind then?

 

[GundamZero]

GundamZero wrote:
As a Christian, who is not under the law but a salve to Christ, I would not demand the death penalty. But for a nonbeliever who has lost a loved one, I will not speak out against the death penalty because they are under the law, and the law says they deserve justice. We should not try to dictate the lives of those outside the church, because we too have a master, and who are we to judge someone else's servant.

Being a Christian should not mean that we bury our head in the sand and ignore what is going on around us. And, it's hardly a case of 'judging' others for merely speaking out against the killing of another human being ...whatever their offense may have been and no matter how 'justified' we may feel for doing so. A civilized society does not kill to uphold justice

.


Our sense of Justice has nothing to do with justice, or better, reconciliation.

I often feel that some deserve nothing more than death (especially those that commit crimes against children). But the Ten Commandments always come into my head and I remember "Thou Shall Not Kill"

.

The commandment is "Thou shalt not Murder."

The Lord said in Exodus 21:14 "But if a man shemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my alter and out him to death."

Thanks Richard. Nor do I believe that God sanctions killing 'guilty' people in the name of Him or justice. I think that those who support the death penalty would change their minds in an instant if the death penalty were imposed on (a) themselves, or (b) a love one. It's easy to impose such laws on those we don't know personally.

God sanctioned the Death Penalty for far more things than murder. SputnikBoy, you have not once supplied any scripture for your arguement and thus have no right to argue. Before you continue your arguement, you ought to actually pick up the bible and read some of it. I suggest the several chapters following Chapter Twenty of Exodus. And I could say the same thing to you; that you wouldn't have the same opinion if one of your loved ones was murdered. As I said, I am in Christ and am therefore not under the law. No man sins against me, but against God. Therefore, the servant has no right to impose punishment on another's servant. And I will seek to bring them grace, first from my self and then by bringing them to the Grace of God. However, it is hateful, insensitive, and ignorant to think ill of a non-Christian whose loved one has been murdered. The Law of God says that they have the right to see them suffer the same fate.

I'm not sayng that we ought to support the death penalty. You don't support justice, you do it. And I'll say it again. While a Christian ought not pursue the death penalty and should endeavor to prevent it, a Christian has no right to tell a non-Christian that they ought not pursue it nor is it sinful for that person to pursue it for the non-believer.



[/b][/quote]

 

[sehad]

GundamZero, where do you stand on this? Do you think the death penalty is right or wrong? Most who do not support the death penalty take the stand that it is murder and that one wrong doesn't make the first one right. While two wrongs don't make a right, I do not believe that carrying out the death penalty is murder.

Just a question. Don't we all belong to GOD? He created us all. GOD tells us in his 10 commandments not to covet anything that belongs to another yet he says several times in his word that he is a jealous GOD and that we should have not other GOD's before him and on and on. This would suggest to me that we are all GOD's yet we do not act it sometimes.

 

[Lewis]

Can't anybody be put to death unless God allows it. The Bible says that He knows even, when a sparrow hits the ground in death. So He certainly knows the situation that you are in facing the court, in a death penalty case. If God does not allow you to die, can't know man kill you. In those cases you are under Divine Protection. He causes the heart of man not to do it. The Spirit of God is who gave Moses those laws. And doesn't He say in the Bible I am the Lord I change not. But how man escapes the death penalty is through God's MERCY.
But I am not afraid to say that I support the death penalty, why ? Because it is Biblical. If it was not in that book I would not. I keep telling people over and over again that the moral laws of the Old Testament still stand. Why did Jesus tell a couple of His people to purchase a sword. Now what are swords made for, and what are they used for ? So why would Jesus make that statement ?

 

[SputnikBoy]

I keep telling people over and over again that the moral laws of the Old Testament still stand. quote]

How about death for the homosexual and death for those who profane the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line?

 

[SputnikBoy]

God sanctioned the Death Penalty for far more things than murder.

So, are you saying that we should put to death homosexuals and those who profane the Sabbath? If not, why?

SputnikBoy, you have not once supplied any scripture for your arguement and thus have no right to argue.

Oh yes I have. I supplied the best one that I know (several posts above). Read John 8:3-11. Adultery was a crime punishable by death but what did Jesus choose to do?

 

[Lewis]

I keep telling people over and over again that the moral laws of the Old Testament still stand. quote]

How about death for the homosexual and death for those who profane the Sabbath? Where do you draw the line?

I have thought about that before. But even the New Testament says that they should die. Read Romans 1:24-32 and take a hard look at verse 32 when you get to it. I didn't say it but the Word of God did.

 

[ArtGuy]

I believe that the death penalty is a human rights issue, not a religious issue, and thus must be argued on secular grounds. When you make it a religious issue, then suddenly you make it okay for, say, Egypt to execute you for shaving your beard, or some silly nonsense. The legal system should be the domain of man's law, which God says we must obey.

So anyway. Death penalty. I'm in favor of it in theory, because there's evidence that it has a deterrant effect and results in net lives being saved. And I'm all for that. However, there's the question of accuracy. There's no way to guarantee that no innocent people are wrongly convicted. Innocent people are sent to prison quite frequently in non-capital cases, and they have been sentenced to death in capital cases, as well. To date, we don't have proof that an innocent person has been executed, but there's a reasonable likelihood that it's happened. The question, then, is how many innocent people are we willing to execute in order to keep the death penalty around, even if it's true that it saves lives overall? I think most reasonable people would assert that, if the number isn't zero, it's pretty darned low.

The death penalty, as currently implemented, needs reform. It unfairly targets those who are incapable of securing adequate legal defense, and this needs to be rectified. I would be in favor of eliminating the death penalty, at least temporarily, in favor of life in prison without parole. This would keep the person in prison forever, and thus keep him from harming anyone, while still making it possible, at least in theory, for the person to prove his innocence if he didn't commit the crime. It would also be a whole lot cheaper, given the high cost of the numerous appeals that come with the typical death penalty case. If the system had the appropriate safeguards implemented, then we could revisit the issue. As it stands, I'm sort of on the fence about the issue. I don't mind horrible killers being executed, but I don't much like the idea of an innocent man being executed because his lawyer sucked.